At work, I recently became interested in munchausen syndrome after being advised that one of our health plan members may be presenting factitious symptoms.

(aside to Lemonman .... have you ever come across munchausen in your practice?)

So I looked stuff up to refresh my knowledge of this strange disorder.

And in doing so, I came across some interesting stuff.

stuff like "factitious bereavement" ... where the grieving person has actually NOT lost a family member or suffered the great loss they claim to have suffered ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> whoa!

and what really surprised me was this ---> "munchausen by internet" .... where the mentally ill person finds an internet site to display worrisome symptoms, or freak symptoms, or fatal symptoms in order to get attention and sympathy.

this is so interesting ...


Medical doctors ... please check in .... talk to me. What is your experience?

This blows my mind

www.healthyplace.com/site/article_faking.asp

an example of munchausen by internet

Pep, we actually had an associate several years ago that called in to say that her son had disappered and needed to take a leave. After taking up a large collection and giving it to her we realized that it was a scam.

There are all kinds of folks out there.

How much $$$ did she get? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Well we didn't do a total but there were about 125 people that donated. She played it to the hilt. When after several days no one saw anything in the paper we got suspecious.

Always remember IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!

In case anyone is interested in factitious bereavement ... the most intresting parts (I think) are the physican's comments after the article

www.priory.com/psych/fact.htm

humans are fascinating!

Pep:

I have not really ever had to deal with this is my practice as I am in trauma surgery and even if there is self inflicted trauma for whatever gain, we deal with it, and then "turf" it to the Medicine guys or psych guys.

When I was a medical student we had a young teenage girl who was constantly being admitted with diarrhea. The girl had every dang test known to man done twice for good measure. Here I was some "wanna be" trying to look up and test for these rare causes of infectious diarrhea that one could only literally get if they drank from a brazillian swamp.

It was a nurse who finally "cracked" the case and determined the girl was ingesting laxatives to cause the diarrhea. Ofcourse "we" FALSELY took the credit and presented the case at morning report... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. She got umpteen colonoscopies and biposies and what not, and the key to the case was under our noses the whole time. What a bunch of morons we were. It is a sad, albeit fascinating disorder. I don't have much to add to this discussion though, certainly not anything more than one could learn doing a google search.

This munchausen by internet is something I actually never heard of till today. I will have to look this up and read about it. I am fascinated about this.

Sour....... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

me too .... never heard of it before

I got a major kick out of this guy's comments; he is my kinda fella!

Pardon my lack of knowledge in the medical field but doesn't that run a similar pattern to all other types of scammers? Just gotta wonder.....why don't these people get a life?!??!?!

Drama queens or drama kings in tights. That's what I have been seeing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Even the ones from Africa looking for a loan. YIKES!!!! So whether it is concoting a story about unconfirmed illness, disease, hardhip, tragedy, etc..... the final hand is held out for what?!??!? $$$$? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

We've come across some here we have called trolls as making up fake tales of woe...attention seekers, playing with our heads, or just messed up people who may fit a diagnosis like this? Then there was dustkitty, the group of students...

Can someone take a second or two and give me a brief blurb about what that was about. I have heard people refer to that situation but never understtod what went on.

Sour...

Well since you asked I will share a very sad case that I became all too acquainted with....

There was a young girl, C, who from a VERY young age was brought in with repeated bouts of diarrhea and absorbtion issues, etc. She was eventually diagnosed with a "short gut syndrome" and eventually received a small bowel transplant around the age of 8 or so....

She then developed repeated infections and repeated issues... eventually there was a suspicion of Munchausen by proxy raised and she was removed from her mother's care... each time she was out of her mother's care she did well. She did not have all the infections and obstructions, etc.

Somewhere down the line she was returned to her mother's care... so continued to have problems and was on TPN for YEARS! I got to know C before and after her 2nd small bowel transplant (we did two of these in the 4 yrs I worked transplant, sorta rare!)

She was 17 when I met her, a frail little thing that looked much younger. She had lots of freckles and wisps of strawberry blonde hair. Her IV pole a constant companion with her TPN and eventually she grew yellow...

Well long story short I took care of C in her last days. Her liver gave out under all of the TPN and she developed more issues with infection from the immunosuppressants. She would pour diarrhea and eventually blood through her colostomy and was allowed to eat only for comfort... her "real" nutrition was TPN and cans of tube feedings given through a PEG. Her little belly looked like a war zone....

She loved chocolate milk and orange soda!

I was the nurse who sent C to the unit for the last time, and I visited her just before she went home with Hospice care. C told her Momma that she wanted to die at home... It is very hard to comfort a Momma losing her 20 yr old daughter and granting her a last wish, all the while knowing that her Momma had caused this in the first place! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

C went home and was gone withn 48 hrs. Even in the last days I wondered if Momma got her home and "helped her along"...

I certainly can never understand the madness that propels someone to harm their child for attention... I may NEVER understand that! As a nurse I had a very hard time stemming the anger and protection I felt for C and not directing this at her mother.

Plus, I tried very hard to be patient and understanding while listening to her mother speak of the difficulty of dealing with losing her child... she was a mother losing a child...

BUT as a Mom and someone who had grown quite fond of C over the years and quite protective of her, I had SUCH a hard time feeling anyhting but anger for this woman who I held responsible for the evils that plagued this child her entire life...

It was so sad and I will never forget it...

We also had a patient who had Munchausens that would eat dirt and intentionally (compulsively) drink so much water so fast as to throw herself into fluid volume overload requiring emergent dialysis!!! Still, C is the one I will always feel somewhat haunted by, such a waste!

Lemonman,
Dustkitty came on board several years ago. Lots of attention getting posts which have mostly all been edited by Justuss. You may able to search and find a few remnants here and there. I'm too old to remember all the details.

Supposedly it turns out *she* was 5 grad students <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> posting for kicks....yanking our chain!

Susan
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So Tnt, some of these cases are brought on by diet? Not always within the control of the patient?

Guess I need t/b educated with this illness. Sorry to hear of such a tragic case.

What makes me angry is the bogus cases amplied by the drama roylaty which masks those in real need. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

L.

Pep, being short on time right now, I only had time to read your 1st post and a couple of responses.

My take: you might be describing a type of "hypochondria" or "victim mentality," but NOT Munchausen by Proxy. MBP is directed against another, a child, not the person themselves.

I HAVE had a little experience with this because one of my daughters was dating a divorced man who had two children. The ex-wife had custody and to make a long story short, after years of running the little boy to the hospital, etc., for alleged problems that could never be substantiated, the boy was found dead at home. We are all pretty sure that clinically, all the evidence for MBP is there, yet nothing has been done. The daughter remains at risk, but even more at risk is the baby she had with one of her "boyfriends."

MBP is SERIOUS, but often undiagnosed.

There may be some similarities to your "factitious bereavement" issue, but it seems more directed at getting people to "feel sorry for the individual" for some reason, even if it the "reason" is fake and "made up."

FH***

Take a peek at the links if you haven't already ... it is very interesting. I am not making this up ... I just came across it while searching for "regular" munchausen.

I thought it was an interesting subject for MB (I admit I am weird this way) ... because there is sometimes a "death" or a "near suicide" of some MBers who is a well-known frequent flyers in the "LOOK AT ME !!! HOW BAD IT IS FOR ME!!! AND~ HOW I SUFFER!!!" category.

Especially where there is no way to verify the tragedy that had (again) fallen on the poor undeserving "victim".

BTW ... I did not say anything about "by proxy" ... I know what that is ... that is not the subject ... there is munchausen syndrome to the self .... proxy is a whole different subject.

Orchid **** This is a mental disorder where the person fakes illness (WITH SYMPTOMS) they cause to themselves by taking something or inflicting harm to their body in some devious (usually hard to detect way) in order to garner attention and sympathy (THAT is the reward) ...

...and if you do a google search using the word "munchausen syndrome" you can see that it can take several forms.

The "by proxy" form is by far the ugliest ... where a parent purposely causes their child to be ill in order to garner sympathy and support because they are such a good and loving parent who will do anything to help their suffering child ... a child who can never get well (except when removed from the home where the evil is being done) Did you see the movie The Sixth Sense ?? ... That's the "I see dead people" movie with Bruce Willis. If you did, the little girl who played with her puppet theater and video taped her mother giving her poison is an example of munchausen by proxy. A good example ---> The mom was basking in all the attention and sympathy at her daughter's funeral. Then the child with the sixth sense played the video to everyone so they would know why the daughter was sick and died ... and they could rescue the little sister who was starting to be poisoned by the mom.

Pep,

Thanks for the clarification. This is a sick world and how the sickness hides and emerges makes it so hard to resolve.

Arrrgh.....it is aggravating to hear of such actions. Being a good parent is hard enough as it is.

You know what is really sad, as I read your description, I can easily imagine those drama queens in my family (in-laws) headed down such a path. I always fears those 2 girls having babies and now one has 4 and the other is pregnant. Hm..... H's brother did warn the 2nd girl's new H but he choose not to listen B4 the wedding and now in less than 1 month regretted it but has tried to stick it out with her. The 1st girl's H is such a sweet man but even his limits are being tested. That one is like the women on Oprah and current seems t/b addicted to plastic surgery (at least 6 or more to date). We can always tell when another is coming because she 'goes dark' with the family. The sad piece is we don't know how much her children are suffering and her H is still in denial (he dealt with her having an A as a well). Seems the more he gives, the more she does. Is that a symptom? Ok won't read too much into this. Don't want to self diagnose.

Thanks for the info.

L.

Pep, thanks. Sorry for my mistake. It happens a lot when I'm in a hurry and don't read carefully.

Orchid *** actually, this is a pretty infrequent disorder. It is highly unlikely, but not impossible, that you know anyone with munchausen syndrome.

FH ** I am wondering... Have you read M. Scott Peck's wonderful book People Of The Lie?? (a discussion of human evil) ... I am interested in your views of this subject (munchausen) as it applies to Peck's view that this sort of syndrome we are discussing here is actually an example of human evil. Have you read that book? I ~only~ want to discuss this with someone who has read the book ... otherwise there is no basis for common ground to continue the topic the way I'd like to.

Let me know