I feel that I made enough of a mess over on the other thread, so I'll not post again there.

So, I'm responding to some things you said here.


Oh TR, your question is too complicated for me to understand!


I think you mis-identify my distain for verbal abuse as a "fear of conflict". Conflict is inevitable, and can be conducted without name-calling. Conflict is conducted without verbal abuse every day, for example in the courtrooms, congresses and parliaments of the world - though not without an occasional lapse.


Conflict is inevitable. It hardly matters whether any of us think it is a good or bad thing. I don't think I said anything at all about conflict on the other thread. I was talking about verbal abuse. (With my w as the perp.)

I think name-calling and a host of other undesirable verbal attack-forms are a bad thing in any context. I will tell you that I have been employed for more than 25 years in a professional engineering environment, and have naturally encountered conflict in the course of my work. I have very rarely seen name-calling or the like - perhaps on 2 or 3 occasions over 25 years. That's counting episodes between workers and supervisors, between co-workers, between customers and employees.

In my marriage, it was daily - sometimes almost constant.

For example, yesterday evening, my W was here, and although it was a relatively pleasant visit, she did not make it through 4 hours without calling me "durak" (Russian for "fool" - but with a much more derogatory feel.)

I understand that in her case, this behaviour arises from the constant verbal abuse she recieved from her mother, but, all the same, I'm not willing to accept that any more.

-AD

AD,

I'm sorry you feel you made a mess on the other thread, I don't think that you did.

As I said on the other thread, I could see why you felt you were being name called--I just think there was a mis-understanding of how something was said.



TR--This comment answers the question above..


It sounds as if you accepted the verbal abuse from your wife
because it's all she thinks she knows.

I'm curious though, how did you respond to your wife when she called you a 'fool' when she was at your home this weekend?

Did you tell her that is no longer acceptable to you?

did you ignore it?

Did you ask her to leave your home until she could speak to you with respect and not call you names?

Are you fighting for custody of your daughter? Or are you going to allow her to grow up the way her mother did with the constant verbal abuses thrown at her, because that's how her mom grew up and thats all she knows?

Have you told your wife (recently) that just because her mother called her names doesn't give her a right to call other people names?

Have you asked her how she felt when her mother called her names as a child? And doesn't she think OTHERS feel the same way?

Have you told her that just because her mom called her names doesn't mean her mother was right to do that?

I understand generational sins, my grandfather was abusive, and my dad was abusive, however, that doesn't give ME the right to abuse others just because that is what I grew up with. It's an excuse to say "well that's what she went through so this is what she does." I disagree with that arguement. It is not the reason she does it, she does it because she chooses to handle things that way as opposed to doing something different, it doesn't require thought, and it gets you to back off from whatever conflict is happening at the time between the two of you.

She calls a name you back down--the conflict goes unresolved
she's happy because she's yet again avoided working through a problem and seeing where she just might need to be the one to change. And your left feeling torn to shreds by her words.

So maybe when you find yourself in that situation again, call her on it. SPEAK UP and let her know it's NOT acceptable for her to speak to you like that.

I imagine that because you have allowed it for so many years, she see's you as a child, weak, unable to stand up for yourself against your attacker. (possibly how she felt against her mothers attacks) and she finds it unattractive, why? because it's the thing she hates the most about herself. That she never spoke up against her mothers abuse towards her.

TR,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that I "have allowed" my wife to call me names. It's her mouth. I don't control it - and it doesn't control me.

I have often called her on her behaviour - and sometimes I simply leave if I don't like how I'm being treated.

Our daughter is almost always with us, and I dont' think it is appropriate for one parent to "correct" the other in front of the child.

I certainly don't "back down". I either ignore it (i.e. do not allow it to affect my behaviour) or call her on it. When she does it in out our daughter's presence, I make a point of talking to WW about it later - when she has cooled off. My efforts are not completely fruitless - nor have they been completely successful. It's still her mouth.

Really, I'm not torn by her words. That's not it at all! I know who I am and I am neither a "durak" nor a "kaziol" nor an idiot. The problem is that our home is torn by her words. It is painful to me to see our home so disrespected. A home should be a place of comfort, peace, acceptance. As a SAHM, it was her responsiblity to make it so. A home in which any member of the household - especially the wife/mother is verbally abusive does not fit my model of what a home should be at all. Nor does it fit hers.

My wife and I have often discussed her childhood situation and she has often lamented that she did not have the kind of example that she needed. She knows what she wants her home to be like, but she doesn't know how to shape herself completely into the mother that she wants to be.

Her problem is poor impulse control - and lack of good role models. When a spurt of anger arises within her, she often does not have the capacity to deal with it constructively. She doesn't do what her mother would do, but she doesn't do what my mother would have done either. I never heard my mother call anybody a name or otherwise insult anybody in my entire life. I suppose she was an exceptional woman, but I'm stuck with her as a model of what a mother should be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am not fighting over custody, for reasons which I have posted before, but don't mind revisiting.

1) If I contest custody, it will be total war. In our state/county a contested D takes on the order of 18 months or perhaps longer. At this critical time of our childs life (she will enter grade "K" in a year), such a long period of intra-parental warfare could be very damaging. I believe that a smooth uncontested D is in the best interest of our child.

2) My W has been a SAHM. In our state/county the parent who has been the primary caregiver is always given primary custody unless there is documented abuse or neglect (which is not the case for us).

3) If I did win custody, it would mean that my daughter would be in day-care when she was not in school. (As I mentioned above, the D would not complete until she was already in grade "K" if it were contested.) If I won primary custody it mean that she recieves less parental attention than if my W has primary custody.

4) My W has been very active in teaching our child many things. DD is 4.5 years old and can write her name - without any help. The other day, she was at my house - took a piece of paper (completely on her own and without any prompting from me) and wrote her name, "Mama" and "Papa" on it. Her Mom taught her that.

-AD

AD,

Why don't you say something in front of your DD? I mean, by not saying anything your daughter is learning that THIS IS ACCEPTABLE.

Poor self-control is still not an excuse, if she doesn't want to do this, then she would find a way to make changes if it were THAT important to her.

So when you divorce your wife will not work at all so that she can continue to remain a SAHM, is that correct?

You will be paying her enough in child support and alimony so that she will never have to work and your child will NEVER have to go to daycare? You'll basically be continuing to support her lifestyle, paying all of her bill's, all of her trips, for her new clothes and everything? And still be able to afford those things for yourself?

I honestly think your living in a dream world, if you think your daughter won't be in day-care and that her mom will always be there for her before and after school.

Are you going to continue this after she remarry's as well, to ensure your wife never has to work even after she's married to someone else, just to make sure your daughter doesn't have to go daycare?

TR,

I didn't give all the details of our plans etc - which unfortunately left you with insufficient data to understand our situation. My posts on the MB forums do not describe the totality of our lives, but only certain situations which particularly trouble me. One cannot judge my daughter's situation entirely by reading my posts - because I don't report on MB every normal or good event in her life. This is the "bad news bias" of most reporting.

My wife is a good mother. That this is not clear from my posts reflects more on the quality, accuracy and completeness of my posts rather than on my wife's parenting.

She does not treat our child in the same way as she treats me, nor does she always treat me badly.

I have carefully considered my custody/visitation options as well as the current and likely future conditions. I am completely comfortable with my current direction for custody and visitation.

I disagree with your contention that a parent should confront the other parent about her offenses in front of a child. It is vital to every child's success in life to learn to respect authority - starting with Mom and Dad. One parent critisizing or "confronting" the other in front of the child is harmful to the child both by undermining the child's respect for (both) her parents, and by devaluing a person who is central to the child's life. Two parents doing this is worse than one. It is not a child's place to consider whether her parent's actions are "acceptable".

I started to write a long discussion of this, but since I don't have time to follow up on the discussion, I'll just say that this is not something I will do.

-AD

Check me on this... You want an uncontested D, to minimize damage during a "critical time" (As if somehow the other 16.5 years aren't critical), so that you can leave your DD with the person who as a role model is the worst of the two choices?

I'm hoping there's a bit more to it than that...

JM,

I'm not convinced that I'm the better parent.

But let's suppose I were.

What then? Still, the odds are very strongly against me gaining custody. The 18 months (minimum) of war will do it's damage whether I "win" or "lose" custody. I would have to be a very much better parent to overcome this damage downstream. It's not a choice between angel and demon - but a more subtle choice than that. And the effects of this war will not go away when the judge issues his decree - but will carry over throughout our child's life in the form of leftover bitterness between the parents - causing a much lower chance of cooperative parenting.

Custody is never set in concrete. The judge's driving principle is "best interest of the child". If developments indicate that the child is best served by changing custody later, I'll persue it.

As the child grows older, she will also have more voice in the custody decision. If she feels oppressed by her Mom, she will have an opportunity later (not 16 years later) to express herself and voice her preference.

Meanwhile, without a fight, she spends 10 overnights per month with me - and more on holidays and summer.

-AD

There's really not much to say after this is there? For one thing, it just seems odd on the face of it. But be that as it may, if you're not going to make the effort to be the better parent in the face of the issues with you and your W, then what follows, follows and there isn't much more that can be said.

It looks like you've put a lot of thought into it. It is a bit disappointing to see the bar set so low, but you're in the situation, and I'm not.

Whoa.

AD, I can understand why you may not want to go for custody. I don't think you've said you won't be the best parent you can be. You do seem to recognize the stress that taking a young child who's always stayed at home with Mama away from Mama. Unless your wife is truly abusive to your daughter, the "experts" recommend providing as much stability as possible for the children. Same routine, same house, same everything. Obviously this is not possible for many families, but if you can do it, great.

You may want the alimony to lessen once your daughter goes to school. Your wife can go to work part time. Make sure you'll have the resources to take care of yourself and provide the kind of home you want for your daughter of those days.

Good luck.

AD,

I fully understand that right now your spouse treats your daughter differently than she does you, as you have different roles in her life.

And who is to say that she will not turn that on your daughter when you are no longer there?

There are some things I believe a spouse should speak up about in front of their children, abuse is one of those things. Even if it's just to say "Please do not speak to me like that in front of the children, if you wish to discuss this later, we will do so, when we are alone."

Do you honestly believe that by your daughter hearing her mother call you names she's learning to 'respect' your authority?

As it is, your daughter is learning from her mother that you are an idiot, and a fool, even if YOU know your not, that is still what your daughter is hearing. And she will have less respect for you long term as she get's older--because her mothers words will filter through what you talk to your daughter about--

"Oh dad's just a fool/idiot, he doesn't know what he's talking about, I don't have to listen to him."

Which also translates dad is an idiot, dad is a man so men must be idiots. So therefore, when I get married my husband will also be an idiot, and I will tell him so.

Just as children process dad's words against mom the same way..."Mom is (women are) stupid."


"It is not a child's place to consider whether her parent's actions are "acceptable"."

Even in this type of situation, It's not the child who is considering if the actions are 'acceptable' or not, it's you the SPOUSE/PERSON who is doing that. And yes, children need to know it's unacceptable to talk to others that way, and their parents are the ones who are supposed to teach them that. But, then that is my opinion.

And believe it or not, many children do consider if their parents actions are acceptable or not based on what their parents teach them.

I can see your daughter when she starts school calling another child a fool or an idiot, because that is what her mother does, and then the teacher correcting your daughter for her calling others names.

How is a child to discern who it's okay to call names and who it isn't, unless of course their parents are teaching them by example that its not okay to call ANYONE names.

And how can a child be taught it's not okay to call anyone names when one parent is calling the other parent names? Are they then going to tell the child, "It's not nice to call other people names," and the child is thinking, "but you call mom/dad names all the time."