This is sort of a carryover from another thread where it was suggested that a BS cease "snooping" after contact has ended.

I've stated before that the only privacy that should exist between spouses is that which the other is willing to extend them.

A recovering WS shoud NOT be extended a lot of privacy...they have to earn it back.

Spouses on either side of the fence must be willing to share anything they say ABOUT their spouse WITH their spouse. There should be NO expectation of privacy unless it was respectfully agreed to and granted.

For example, when I started IC, my wife agreed to allow those sessions to be private. I'm sure I would not have made the progress I did if they hadn't been. But the point is that SHE granted me that. I had no right to it.

I think it's very important for spouses to know who's on their side in a family. If snooping reveals that your in-laws are undermining your relationship, that's critical information you NEED to know.

So, to conclude...spouses have the right to "snoop" unless they've previoulsy agreed that they would not. Even those agreements may be recinded if abused. A journal is a great example. If a WS is documenting their adulterous relationship in their journal, a BS has every right to that information and any agreements with respect to journal privacy are recinded.

I see way too much guilt about "invading" privacy here.

Low

Thank you, LowOrbit! I agree 100%. I am always amazed when folks think that they are doing something wrong when they snoop. I guess its a good thing the FBI or the CIA doesn't cop that attitude or we would have no law enforcement in this country.

I agree 100% with you, too.

In fact, once TRULY IN RECOVERY, my FWH expects me to SNOOP. Well, he doesn't call it SNOOPING. Our lives HAVE TO BE OPEN BOOKS!! It's essential not to have that worry.....

You know, this is the one thing I was VERY surprised by my FWW with. I fully expected her to explode when she saw how I got the proof of her EA (hacked her IM accounts)...but instead it was the guilt of what was going on, and of course she was all ready to leave then and there. But no anger at being spied on.

About a month and a half later, when I suspected that contact had resumed, I found an email from OM in her inbox...and finally broke down and talked with her about it. She was angry I'd checked her email...for about an hour. And that was it. That was what lead to the FINAL NC that's been in place for a year...and about a month after that last incident, she told our MC that she understood why I was checking...not that I didn't trust her, but simply to reassure myself.

I've been very surprised that she didn't have issues with this. Several months ago, SHE asked me to re-install the keylogger on her computer...because she was concerned about what the kids were doing online. It's been there ever since. She doesn't have access to it...doesn't know the password, and has never asked.

I've been very up front with her...she knows all three of my email account logins and passwords, as well as the only IM account I have. And she has never once gone and looked. I guess she doesn't feel the need, and that's fine...but I still want her to feel comfortable with doing so if she needs to.

Sorry for the TJ...I do agree with this post...no such thing as privacy in a marriage. And the BS needs to be willing to provide the same rights to the WS/FWS too.

Hi Low, you must be referring to something I threw out that turned out to be not applicable to the original poster. (yet!).I’m not entirely sure how the issue of his wayward wife’s privacy rights got brought into it, since it was waaaay outside of what I was trying to convey. I am in complete agreement with you in regards to the privacy issue but do need to clarify what I did say since it can be a potential recovery error for the BS.

What I shared was a friend’s electronic eavesdropping experience, an activity which is still continuing months after the end of the A and absolute No Contact. Listening in on the FWS complaints turned out to be too much for the him to deal with. The WS in this case does not know she is still being monitored even though the BS is now a full blown WS himself.

Listening in on a spouse seems to be a temptation that some can become addicted to. That particular kind of snooping backfired in my friend’s situation and his original goal really was recovery. Continued, daily electronic surveillance is not the same as reviewing phone bills, email accounts, computer usage, mileage or generally checking up on a spouse’s whereabouts after an affair. I don’t even consider that snooping, did I say that already? Yeah, just checked...I did.

As I saw it, the problem (legal issues aside) with my friend’s electronic eavesdropping is that it SO severely undermined his determination to recover their marriage that a D is pretty much a done deal. Having a (false) sense of *inside knowledge* …. in other words, the totally wrong idea that his wife’s vents were the “REAL TRUTH” rather than the usual fog talk that caused him to lose hope in his ability to recover. Ironically, he also thinks his brand new MOW’s words are *real* too. Sigh.

Low, if your wife had heard what you said to your IC in the early months, do you think she would have had the stamina needed for recovery? Would she have been crushed? Only you know what you were saying back then and you also know that it is not the way you feel now. Your wife made a gracious and (self) healthy decision to allow you to speak about the A and about your marriage without censor. You were able to work out your issues “privately” which is great. Grove’s situation is totally different but as he can’t address the overheard conversations anyway so maybe it should be a consideration whether continuing is beneficial or harmful to his ability or desire for recovery.

Really, post A vents are post A vents, nothing new under the sun….nothing more than fog talk if it is the wayward venting! Listening to unrestrained fog talk can be disastrous to recovery because without the desire or ability to reveal the source, the BS cannot address it. Anger and resentment fester, bitterness takes root and recovery is thwarted. Same goes for a (F)WS listening in on the BS vents, btw.

In Grove’s situation the in-law problem was already known….he can’t address anything said between his wife and her parents regarding his marriage because he can’t reveal his source so he needs to figure out if it is helping him or hurting.. Only he can decide when it’s time to stop. A real concern is that he takes what he (or the MBers responding to his posts) overhears from the WS too seriously and hope is lost...

I have no doubt that it has been the longest five months of Grove's life, but in the overall scheme of things, 5 months not that long in a recovery picture. Hope is one of the most underrated and important factors in recovery, without the teeniest shred of it, ALL can be lost. Losing hope because of fog talk is just plain sad.

Anyway, the privacy issue is an entirely different thing from maintaining one’s own emotional health in the face of what seem to be overwhelming odds. My concern was/is for HIM, not his wife’s *privacy*. Wow, I just realized that maybe I get so long winded sometimes, people must speed read and miss what I'm actually saying. I'll have to work on that, lol. KB

knew, I disagree with your take on this. The BS in this story is getting a divorce because of the WS' true feelings about him which were wrongfully withheld from him. The BS had a right to know these feelings, the friend she was venting to did not. Instead of coming to her H with these feelings and giving him a chance to deal with them, she disloyally trashed him behind his back and probably lied to his face. I would end the marriage too, if my spouse did that.

The BS has a RIGHT to know how the WS feels about him and a RIGHT to decide if he wants to stay. For me, I can deal with the truth, I cannot deal with lies and gossip about me. I think it is good that your friend eavesdropped and heard how his spouse truly felt and that she was trashing him behind his back. He had every right to know it and every right to end his marriage if he so chose.

I will just add that NO ONE is entitled to the right to the privacy to harm me behind my back.

Yeah - i always love being called "An invader of privacy" and "controlling" because I checked my W's email after she slept a OM's house.

Are you kidding me?

Ahh... but what is the "Truth" in the months following the end of an A? Is it ONLY in conversations held with those who "support" you?

A real great way to trash a marriage is to hang out with people who trash your spouse and that works whether you are the betrayed or the wayward. I say recognise fog talk for what is is...encourage a BS to do his or her part to recover if that is their goal. This poster has stated that he loves his wife still, and posted some nice things about her.

Of course he has the right to end his marriage but ending it because he's got a real piece of work MIL who actively loves to trash him with her daughter would be sad. The company we keep after an affair is uncovered is pretty crucial and I'm not talking just about the OP here.

If marriage support is what we are after, than we need to chose support accordingly. She didn't choose her mother so that's a tough one. I'd sure hate to see that MIL get her way, I'm not entirely convinced the wife is really trying to get out of the marriage. Recovery is HARD work and people respond on different timetables from both sides of the fence. It helps when at least one of the parties has a clear vision of what the goal is despite the inevitable setbacks. KB

Yes, kb, I was referring to your other thread but did not cite you directly because there are elements of this discussion that I wanted to be more generic.



I have to disagree. Continued and detailed snooping into an ONGOING affair can become unhealthy once the BS has satisfied themselves that the worst is occurring.

However, immediately post-NC is THE time that the WS needs to be watched most closely. It is THE time that they are most likely to fall and the added knowledge that they will be detected may be what they need to stay strong.

My W watched me like a hawk. It made me think about the things I said and did. My behavior was always in the context of "how will this affect her?"

The point about my IC...I would've told her about my sessions had she asked. However, if she had not allowed me the privacy of those session, I know I would've behaved differently in them.

But the point is...SHE HAD THE CHOICE TO GRANT ME THAT TIME. In return, I didn't use it backbite her.

Yes, the BS needs to be prepared for the post-A vents, but they certainly do not want to turn a blind eye in order to remain emotionally healthy.

It is apparent to me that if, by snooping, a BS find out just who their friends really are, then that is to their benefit.

Your friend's decision to become a WS is not a result of his snooping. He cannot blame hearing his wife's post-A vitriol for his own own moral blunder. He dealt with the information poorly. He had a choice to deal with it differently. I think ignoring it would be the worst thing you could do.

Contrary to yours (and many others) assertions, I believe MANY a truth is spoken in the fog...it's very dangerous to completely ignore it as "fog babble". the trick is to properly interpret what is being said.

Low

Just to add...

Regardless of what stage of an affair (pre, in, post), we are accountable for the things we say about our spouse. If I had been trashing my wife to someone else and it got back to her, don't you think she would've had a right to know how I was treating her behind her back?

There is no advantage hiding things...from your spouse or yourself.

tope rope's signature quote says it best...I think it goes like this..."Fooling other people is serious business. Fooling yourself is lethal"

Choosing to ignore your spouses behaviour, especially during that critical post-A NC period, is fooling yourself to the point of it being downright "lethal"

Low

Knewbetter, the truth is that I am entitled to know what my spouse feels and says about me and it is UP TO ME to decide if it is real or it is memorex. That is no one else's damn business but MINE. I would have no interest in continuing a marriage with someone who trashed me behind my back and lied to me to my face. And that is MY RIGHT as a free adult in a free country.

Your friend had every right to not trust his W, as evidenced by her sneaking around and trashing him behind his back, and every right to make a decision about his life.


But you would deny the BS the opportunity to "recognize" fog talk for what it is. Or IF it is fog talk. That is extremely patronizing in my book and would not work for me.


The daughter cannot blame the mother for her sleazy behavior. I doubt the BS would have had a problem with the gossip had the WS defended him. My mother would not dare trash my H to me, because it would not fly for 2 seconds. My H would hear me defend him. So, if the WS sat there and allowed it, she is just as guilty as the MIL.

Knewbetter, a spouse who lies to my face while trashing me behind my back is a much greater threat to my mental health than hearing the truth. I can deal with the truth, I cannot deal with lies and subterfuge.

Granted, there are a few folks who like to live in a state of delusion, but I am not one of them. The very thought horrifies me.

We are mostly in agreement Low but as far as truth being dicernable when spouses are alienated, I can't buy that. Adversarial spouses are looking out for the worst and they are very likely to spot it even when it is NOT what they think. Human beings get self protective so it's a little harder to be objective. Everything is all so emotional.

The whole reason I shared what I did Low, was to point out the pitfalls of listening to fogged out conversations between a bunch of fogged out or ignorant people that really don't amount to much in the long run. It can be a real danger and you are right, my friend made his choice but you know what??? He really, really wanted his marriage but it just got too hard to do the work given what his wife and MIL were talking about. Not an excuse (geez, the guy had almost a year's worth of thrice weekly MB pep talks from H and I!) but just what he needed to justify his actions. Without it I really believe they would have made it. KB

For those of you who are thinking this is about normal snooping, I am talking about my friend installing a phone recording device and leaving it hooked up looooong past NC has been established. Over a year to be exact.

Not sure what's 'right' or not in this situation...but I can say that I've still got a keylogger on all of the home computers, and still occasionally (once every few weeks) spot check my wife's emails...and it's been over a year since NC has been in place and the affair has been ended.

Part of it in my case is a reassurance thing...lets me know that everything is STILL OK...but if he's become a WS himself, then that's not his issue...not sure what his reasoning is in that case. Have you asked him?

Post deleted by Fox0r

Computer store, or download off the internet. Do NOT use a trial version...because they normally will have a pop up that inevitably happens when you don't want it to...and your wife will know that you're tracking her computer usage.

Knew, from the sounds of it, your friend was absolutely right to continue listening long after contact had ended. He could not trust his W and had every right to know what she was saying about him.

It seems to me that you are blaming the wrong cause here. The cause of their breakup is not the eavesdropping, but her incessant trashing of him behind his back. THAT is why he is leaving. And I think he is right to leave. I think it would be MUCH WORSE to stay in a marriage and NOT know it when a spouse is trashing you behind your back.

So, I think the eavesdropping was very productive in that it gave the BS the true facts and allowed him to make an informed decision about his own life. And his decision was to move on, which is exactly what I would have done.

What troubles me, KB, is that we are using the old "what you don't know can't hurt you" argument.

I think most of us are trying to put things in the context of an MB type recovery. Spouses who are being adversarial after an affair (as opposed to conciliatory) aren't anywhere near recovery.

However, in the context of an MB type recovery, the BS must be allowed to hold the WS accountable. The WS must be willing to be transparent.

Without this, there is nothing to recover and we have no discussion.

I cannot imagine having a conversation with my FIL where I run my wife down, even one day after d-day. If I did do that, I wouldn't blame my wife for being highly torqued. Fog or no fog...it's disrespectful and wrong and shouldn't be "hidden".

I say if a BS needs the tape recorder for a year, that's ok. Keylogger for two years...that's ok. The FWS should know about it and be held accountable for what they say.

Low

Quick chime in before I am off..

I see KBs point. I understand what she is saying and there *is* at least a shred of agreement. People do rewrite history, they do think horrible things about each other..etc etc..and I do belief that fog talk is a two way street.

However..when the question becomes a *snoop* issue I truly believe that it has more to do with issue of control than issues of privacy.

For example..I did do some journal work in my IC sessions and a great deal of it was not at all flattering. It is the truth that for a period or periods of time I WAS only remaining out of a sense of obligation..he DID look unattractive to me..my vision was as skewed as any WS that ever lived and my thoughts and writing reflected that.

I had a choice..hide the journal or leave it out and let him decide for himself. To this day I do not know whether he read it or whether he didn't.

I ultimately decided that he was an adult and my equal..and that it WAS unfair and manipulative and extremely controlling to dangle him on a thread..basically because I knew that I might feel differently one day, and I wanted the choice in MY hands. I wanted him to be MY pawn. This is over when I say so..yadda yadda yadda.

Leaving this journal available forced me to give grave consideration to my utterences.

DID I mean it..really? Was he truly worthless?...'cause if so..if he discovered this was my *private* belief..he might just make some decisions of his own.

I believe that a spouse who slanders in secret does so mainly for purposes not related to marriage recovery..more probably for simple entertainment or out of habit..or to work themselves up toward feeling some sort of justification for the decision they are fearfull of making without it and a host of other unsavory motivations.

The secrecy in these situations provides yet MORE opportunity for destruction in the marriage and I see no BENEFIT to either spouse in double dealing. If your "true" feelings aren't able to bear the weight of the consequences...some self analysis is definitely in order.

Noodle