Your friend had every right to not trust his W, as evidenced by her sneaking around and trashing him behind his back, and every right to make a decision about his life.


The daughter cannot blame the mother for her sleazy behavior. I doubt the BS would have had a problem with the gossip had the WS defended him. My mother would not dare trash my H to me, because it would not fly for 2 seconds. My H would hear me defend him. So, if the WS sat there and allowed it, she is just as guilty as the MIL.

Mel, it wasn’t that he didn’t trust the A was over, he KNEW that without a doubt and the decision he made is wrong, wrong, wrong! . It was that he LIKED listening to whatever she was talking about and being in the loop. It gave him one up on her, so to speak. It’s what Noodle (GOOD to see YOU!) touched on, it was more of a control issue. The top three reasons for divorce, well…. in-laws rank right up there with finances and child-related issues. Recovery is hard enough without adding supposedly “helpful” meddlers into the mix.

These two had some other long-term marital issues that were totally non A related. The A just brought those issues out into the open. The BS was struggling with Plan A as it was and truth is that he is kind of a picky type personality anyway. They were also really different in temperament but really, nothing that utilizing the MB concepts couldn’t overcome. There would be peaceful times where everything seemed to be going well and then something even minor would happen and she’d be on the phone to her mother who of course trashed the BS.

The BS acted out poorly quite often, never got out of the Plan A starting gate, and wasn’t even close to trying to be an Attractive Spouse but then again, how could he after listening to every installment of their latest argument? This type of “snooping” proved to be entirely counterproductive to recovery. H and I tried to keep him focused on the long term goal and didn’t feed into his LBs but it was a losing battle.

They fed into a cycle of bad behavior on either part, her getting on the phone to Mommy, him listening to the tapes, getting furious but *acting* nice after listening to her complain, he acts like a jerk, she acts like a jerk, get the picture? And this was so helpful, HOW???? Just so that he could know? Know what?? …that she was totally P/Oed at him?? Believe me, I understood sometimes even hearing the story directly from him. I should add in fairness that the tape habit was in place for about a few months before we got involved in their sitch so it was already pretty ingrained.

I always find it curious that when this is the official MB site with ALL of the concepts available right here and it is common to see a long string of posters coming alongside a venting, troubled BS and respond by DJing the heck out of the person they are married to. Aside from not making sense to me as a logical way to move someone into a RECOVERY frame of mind, I don’t see how it is so very different from the WS venting to someone in real life as in my friend’s case. We tend to be accepting of talking sometimes negatively about our spouses and marriages on MB as a solo, private matter but yet can’t accept the spouse talking negatively to a parent or friend. Is there a tangible difference?

At least on MB there can be good solid recovery advice available but I do realize it’s hard for most people to get their spouses on and maybe most don’t even want to give up their personal “spot” anyway. The way I see it, the negative cycle has to be broken and it is up to the one who has understanding of and access to MB to do it. It can be done.

knewbetter, I sort of doubt that trust was immediately restored the second the WS "said" she ended contact. That is unrealistic. It takes much longer than that to ever rebuild trust. It took about 3 years in my marriage. And it sounds like this BS was RIGHT to not trust his W; she was sliming him behind his back. Hardly the behavior of a trustworthy spouse.


What was counterproductive was her trashing her H behind his back. I think that snooping was very appropriate in this case as the wife was not worthy of his trust.

Again, knew, I think you are blaming the wrong cause. The cause here was WHAT he found when he snooped. He had every right to know what his W was saying about him behind his back. And that is not analogous to BS' coming here and ranting about the abusive behavior of their WS. First off, these people are the victims of gross abuse and secondly, they are not here to GOSSIP. There is a huge difference between discussion on an anonymous forum and gossiping about someone behind their back to family members.

There is nothing "negative" about catching someone trashing you behind your back, but there is something very negative about trashing your spouse behind his back to family members.

Like Harley says: "I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding?"

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Do you seriously not see a stark difference between a BS coming here and talking about the abuse they suffered at the hands of a WS and a WS backstabbing his BS, behind his back, to his family members? Do you also feel like the rape victim is "gossiping" about her rapist when she discusses what happened and expresses her disgust at his actions?

Don't you understand that it is a healthy part of recovery to feel anger against someone who has betrayed you? Do you truly not see a tangible difference between a healthy release of anger against someone who treated you with abject cruelty and vicious gossip to other family members? I find that amazing, knew. To equate the rightful expressions of grief and anger - on an anonymous forum - with gossip is not rational thinking, knew. They are worlds apart.

The WS didn't say she ended contact, the BS made SURE that there was no contact to be made. Done deal from the moment of exposure. Really proactive,and pretty cool once he got started. Of course trust isn't something to just hand over right away. This particular situation dragged on and on without any good result because the BS got too angry about the things he heard in her particular outlet.

She certainly had a number of legitimate complaints as did he, but how much better if he had just confronted her and let her know that he was going to be taping her conversations? It does no good to hear things you can't address anyway and remember we are not talking A related things here. He was angry at how she perceived his actions but that stuff needed to be out in the open.

They could have discussed what needed discussing with each other instead of OPs. His bruised ego ended up needing soothing and he thinks the MOW is just the ticket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I don't agree with talking to parents necessarily about marital problems but many people do just that. Some parents are awesome at working to help mend a child's marriage, some are not.

We take MB for granted, we are so familiar with it but the majority of the population is not. Most people actually think that affairs always mean the end of a marriage. A WS or BS who has the advantage of MB and the forum has a big head start on someone who only has a parent to rely on.

I wouldn't assume it is gossip for either BS or WS to talk to a family member, it may be the only option they feel they have. Now if we could just get all those pesky MILs to study up on MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> KB

knewbetter, one of the things that helped the absolute most in restoring trust in my marriage was snooping. It calmed me down immensely and showed me that I could really trust my H. My snooping did more to recover my marriage than anything else did.

Because, via snooping, I was able to independently verify that he was being truthful and faithful. He did not have any idea I was watching him so I knew it was not bullsh** manufactured for my eyes. I knew, without a doubt, that he was being faithful to me. I felt safe and protected with that mode of protection because I knew he would not be able to fool me.

Now, before I installed this foolproof method of sleuthing, I lived with constant anxiety and suspicion. I accused him constantly because I could see nafarious intent in every act. Even the most innocent act got my back up and sent me on an anxiety driven tangent.

Snooping changed all that overnight. I immediately relaxed and felt the first moment of peace I had felt in months. I no longer looked askance at innocent, insignificant acts because I now KNEW exactly what he was doing. I KNEW he wasn't trolling for chicks, I knew he wasn't talking to his old gf. Once I knew this, I quit accusing him and started relaxing.

Our marriage improved in leaps and bounds after that because I no longer had to worry about what he was doing behind my back and could concentrate on learning to stomach him again and overcoming that feeling of revulsion. I could start working on my marriage. He responded to me better because my whole attitude changed towards him.

So you see, it is not snooping that destroys marriages, but rather, bad things that are discovered while snooping. Things like disloyalty, disrespect, unfaithfulness, dishonesty. But when the snooping reveals good things, as it did in my marriage, it can have an amazing restorative impact. So, please don't blame the wrong cause, knewbetter. Snooping is not inherently bad. Doing bad things is what is bad and destructive to marriages.

Despite being only an MB beginner, it has always been clear to me that openness and honesty are the fundaments of healthy, fulfilling relationships. Destructive relationships thrive on lies and secrecy.

Despite this, there is a difference between snooping and respecting privacy. I would never read my daughters' diaries, or my best girlfriend's box of letters from a lover... unless they showed them to me. From my spouse, I expect transparency... he is my life partner, my companion, my lover. Unrestrained, radical honesty can often be a seed for growth and fulfillment. That is what unconditional love is all about, isn't it?

Do you really believe in "unconditional love?" I don't think if my H murdered or molested my child that I would have love for him. I guess I just don't believe in the concept of unconditional love. It makes no sense to me.

I agree with what you said about respecting privacy. However, I think openess and honesty are values that are relevent to healthy marriages. They are values that should be practiced as a RESULT of trust. When one member is harming the other by practicing lies and secrecy, then it is up to the other member to expose the lies and protect themselves. So transparency and radical honesty wouldn't be appropriate if my marriage is under assault and I have to tap the phone of a cheating spouse to protect myself.

Melody, I share your opinion on unconditional love… I don’t think any human being on this earth is capable of true unconditional love. I think in certain circumstances, unconditional love can actually be a BAD thing (like a H who murder or molest a child for example) and that in such instances, “tough love” must be practiced to encourage such a person to get professional help.

Privacy is not a given in certain circumstances. The one you cited is an excellent example.

I can assure you that if I believed my daughter was involved in an activity that was dangerous to her, I would read her diary in heartbeat if that's what I needed to do to protect her.

But we're talking about "privacy" between spouses. Clearly, the marriage relationship is unique...different from all others. There can be no easy comparisons with other kinds of relationships. Obviously, there IS an expectation of privacy between adults NOT in a marriage relationship (e.g. you and your girlfriend). I argue that the level of intimacy involved in marriage requires that spouses voluntarily give the keys to their privacy to their spouses. This is hard for a lot of people. People who will share their body have trouble sharing their dreams or finances. But this is the nature of marriage...to make plain your very essence with another.

It's a very risky venture. And certainly not unconditional. The unstated condition is: "If I make my soft underbelly vulnerable to you, you will protect me and not harm me."

In a pristine relationship, we're often willing to extend trust to the other person without a great deal of verification. But in a relationship that has been challenged, the offended spouse NEEDS to be sure that the other will not harm them if they are allowed "in" again. If they have to snoop to do this, the WS should allow them that.

Can it become unhealthy? Possibly. But in most circumstances, continued observation of trustworthy behavior will bring a renewed (but likely limited) sense of trust to BS. The snooping will likely naturally drop off over time. Some people take longer than others. One to two years does not seem unreasonable to me.

I DO think it's important that there be explicit understanding and agreement between spouses that "checking" must occur to recover. The details and methods need not be known (would be ok if they were), but the FWS should acknowledge and accomodate the BS need to verify.

I wanted my marriage back. I welcomed my wife's snooping, although it was uncomfortable at times because I knew that the sooner that she could see that I was trustworthy, the sooner she could heal. I actually helped her with much of it...provided email and phone mail passwords, showed her how to check computer histories, etc.

I did some of this for me as well. If I had protected a way to keep secrets, I'm sure I would've fallen back into contact. Withdrawal was that hard for me. But I was afraid to...because I knew she would catch me.

Low

Low,

I totally agree with you;

""I argue that the level of intimacy involved in marriage requires that spouses voluntarily give the keys to their privacy to their spouses.""

Privacy to me means secrets..things one does not want others to see or know about. What things would a spouse want to keep secret from the other spouse? The ONLY thing I can think of is a surprise birthday party!

Can anyone think of any other secret that a spouse should keep from the other?

I am all for total transparancy and we practice it now...at least I do and hopefully Geeze does too.

Therefore I still snoop occasionally..there is still that trust issue.

k

I think, if you look closely, there is a distinct difference between the two.

Privacy may be requested from and granted by your spouse to allow you freedom of expression or to make you more comfortable.

Here are two examples of the desire for privacy - 1) Your wife would like to begin a journal to help her process thoughts. Many people find this sort of self-therapy helpful. You may choose to grant this privacy to give her the freedom to express herself. 2) Some people like to have privacy in the bathroom. What you're doing is no secret, but you would feel more comfortable if your spouse wasn't watching you.

Secrets are of a different nature. They are fundamentally deceptive, with the intent of hiding information from your spouse - information they need to make decisions about their own lives. You should never have a valid reason for deceiving your spouse.

Low

Low,

OK, the bathroom, I'll give you. and the journal/diary I understand.

I was thinking more along the lines of "I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU ARE INVADING MY PRIVACY" ..rooting out my secrets.

k

Right...and it's this kind of flawed thinking that a WS engages in. Don't let yourself get sucked into it.

A spouse has every right to rescind a grant of privacy if they believe it's being abused by the other to damage them or the family.

Low,

I had been lurking on this thread with a moderate interest. The subject interested me but I never conjured up a POV to post.

I am a bit confused by what you posted on Carina's thread on EN in comparison to this thread where you promote complete transparency and zero privacy.


Perhaps I'm reading this out of context but it reads to me like you want it both ways. Privacy, according to this thread is 'granted'...it is not a right. In that case you have no say over how much information is shared. Am I missing something?