[color:"blue"] I'm curious about two things and hoping to get some insight.

I was in a relationship post divorce for a year with a guy who

A. Didn't "french" kiss. This stopped after we stopped making out all the time and started (ah hem) sleeping together. Not that he would push me away, but he would generally end the kiss and turn his head. I do not have bad breath and I was not trying to kiss him after some other "act".

B. In the year we were together, he got oral almost every time we slept together. I got oral twice.

He claimed to like both kissing and oral when asked outright by me. I even commented to him that I was confused because when I liked doing something - I did it all the time.

Any opinions? Do women just like kissing more than men? Was he just lazy that he didn't attempt to rev me up the way I revved him up?

V. [/color]

I will try to respond...

A. Shortly after we were married, my W told me that she really did not like kissing very much. Frenching is completely out of the question.

B. My W has never and will never give me oral. She has allowed me to do oral on her less than 10 times since we have been married.

I don't know if women like kissing more, but I know my W does not. I do know that my W has absolutely no interest in revving me up at all. She expects me to do whatever satisfies her, then will give me a time limit.

I know this probably does not help, but I am in the same boat. Be glad you are no longer in a relationship with such a selfish person. If I did not choose to stay in the marriage to protect my daughters, I would be gone.

[color:"blue"] Aslan,
So your opinion of someone like this is that they are selfish? I don't understand selfish people - I just don't. I always end up with them too, and then wonder how I did that again.
So, if you are minty fresh where minty is good and sweet and clean where that is good, then it is likely that your partner is selfish if they don't want to enjoy the bounty?

V. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />[/color]

I agree. I have no idea why my W, or anyone for that matter, would be opposed to making sure that their partner is completely satisfied. I know some people don't agree, but, with the exception of waste (yuck), all bodily fluids are just bodily fluids.

Fresh breath and a clean mouth are not that hard to maintain. And the area you mention that is "sweet and clean" is pretty much always sweet & clean to me, however nicely groomed would be icing on the cake. (hair in the mouth can be irritating). What is sad is that most women would pay their H's to do oral on them & my wife absolutely hates it. However, the problem is probably that she hates anything that I like.

Yes, I believe that any man who will not enjoy his wife's garden should have a psychiatric examination. Perhaps I am wierd, but I personally believe that the female genitalia is the most beautiful of all of God's creations. (sorry if that is too much, it is just my opinion)

Sunny, there's a great post over on http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2760262 by myschae, post #2763465, that seems to address some of the situation you're talking about.

As myschae says in her post, your ex could get everything he wanted without going to more effort than he was putting in. And as she also says, most people have some built-in laziness. She goes on with how to deal with it from there.

Hope that's helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"] MOS,

Read the post and I have to agree - setting boundaries and not allowing someone to be lazy is definitely a good thing.

How do you get up the nerve though, to say "no I want you to do XYZ before I do ABC.", when you are standing at the foot of the bed refusing to undress? Or when he says "let's go upstairs."

Or is this one of those things that you set aside a discussion time for?

V.[/color]

Hmm, interesting topic. I was married to a guy who really didn't seem to like kissing either. We did a lot of it while dating, but it dwindled to pretty much nothing once we were married. Not just for the heck of it, not during sex, just basically not at all. And yes, I did also try to watch what I ate and made sure I should have been appealing in that respect. I think in his case, he avoided it because it was to emotionally intimate. He wanted to keep an emotional distance.

It bugged me from time to time. Maybe it's because I'm a woman, but I like all that cuddly, kissing stuff. And I like to french kiss (provided my partner isn't trying to choke me). So I don't understand people who don't.

If your guy has never enjoyed it, maybe it is just the way he is. Everyone is different. But it does sound a little selfish, if he's getting what he wants but he isn't willing to give to you to make you feel good, too.

LL

Sunny:

What planet is he from? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure about lazy - but there is definitely something else going on there! Perhaps a conversation about EN's would've been an eye-opener for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Well, first, yes, you should set aside discussion time to reiterate that the lack foreplay that really gets you going (romantic kissing) is affecting your enthusiasm for sex with him, and that the lack of oral sex for you is making you less enthusiastic about performing oral sex on him.

It's important that you say this with a calm and respectful tone of voice, choice of words, and body language. Ask what he would like to do about the situation. You might get some information that would surprise you.

But given that you've already brought this up with this person, it wouldn't seem all that likely that one more time would make a major difference.

So then there's how you decline to do what you're no longer enthusiastic about. That varies a lot by person and situation. For example, if you're the one who initiates performing oral sex on him, simply stop doing so. If he asks for it, you could say something like, "well, maybe when things are a little hotter between us" with an inviting smile. Or you could just say, "nope, we had this discussion", but that could be a real mood-killer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> However, if how he asks has already killed the mood, then the latter option is a good one.

As for kissing, it might be easier simply never to head for the bedroom unless some really good kissing has happened first. I'm not sure what your preferences are, but "let's go upstairs" doesn't really light my fire, and I prefer that if a gentleman is going to issue an invitation, he make it a really good one, not some half-effort or half-connection. If it's simply an overly terse invitation and you'd be interested with some good foreplay, a flirtatious smile along with something like "maybe...I'm waiting for an invitation I can't refuse" might do.

However, if he does something that's a turn-off or irritant, definitely say so. "Well that certainly killed the mood" followed by leaving the room, picking up something to read, or starting some mundane task is one way to go.

[color:"blue"] [/color] MOS,

[color:"blue"]Thank you - I have tried to do this playfully and even somewhat seriously, but I think you are right - it is time that this is discussed. The second half of the advice is something that I already implement - discussions are calm, on track, and respectful. [/color]


[color:"blue"] True. Although I believe I did say that the way I brought it up was to ask him if he liked doing this and he said "oh yes" very enthusiastically... [/color]


[color:"blue"] Did this already now - it just isn't happening but I haven't said anything to him about it not happening because of his lack of reciprocity. [/color]


[color:"blue"] Hot is definitely becoming a problem. I think the way that our encounters were limited in frequency resulted in me being afraid to take the latter option. I started thinking though, if this is before a true committment, then imagine how much worse it could be if he truly thought he "had" me? [/color]


[color:"blue"] Doesn't light my fire either. He did ask me if I wanted something more romantic. I did start holding out for a bigger effort. It did start producing some results but I didn't take it far enough I think.

I gotta wonder how a man gets to his 40s without a clue as to how important time together and foreplay is to a woman??? [/color]


[color:"blue"] MOS that was an absolutely wonderful idea! [/color]


[color:"blue"]How is this not a hurtful rejection though? Would it be better you think to say something less hurtful such as, "I am all for going upstairs, however the invitation doesn't spark my fire. I would see leaving the room almost like an ultimatum.

Any guys reading this thread want to pipe in on how this might feel to you?

V.[/color]

I guess I should be more specific about when I would use that one, and about variations. If it is something that actively dampens your fire, instead of simply not stoking it, the point is that you should absolutely say so right then and there, and behave accordingly.

If it's a mood-dampening behavior that he hasn't done before, and you think that if he chose to reconnect and build with you, you'd still be interested, then then what you said would certainly be appropriate. I'd follow it up the next day by reiterating that whatever it was he said/did had a mood-killer effect for you, and you'd appreciate it not happening again.

What I suggested above is for a mood-killer behavior that you have already told him is a mood-killer behavior, and he chooses to do it anyway. In that case killing the mood is his own free choice, and there's nothing extreme about that response. If he finds it hurtful, it's his own business to figure out why he's hurt over the predictable response to the action he freely chose. Trying to take care of preventing his feelings for him at this point is disrespectful -- it's trying to own part of his choices for him.

[color:"blue"]Ahhhhhhh

V.[/color]

Kissing is a-ok with me......Now, where is the Diplomat?


Here, Diplomat!


Come here, Diplomat!


I have something for you!!!!


(Sorry, just couldn't resist adding a little levity.)

Actually, my x wasn't much into good sex or good kissing. He could get from first touching me to rolling over in an average of 12 minutes. That's not even enough time for preliminary necking.

Maybe he thought you were a bad kisser, or a wet kisser?

[color:"blue"] AFS [/color]


[color:"blue"]OK, I'm honest enough to think that the possibility exists that I am a bad kisser. I am pretty sure I am not a wet kisser, because my ex used to actually drool into my mouth and I was revulsed - I think I am aware of the drool factor. A couple of times I held and face and laid a nice one on him - varying depth, nibbling, little licks - and got a nice response - audible and physical. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When things were rocky one time he admitted that he hadn't admitted to himself how important I had become to him until I was ready to walk.

This seems to me to be a red flag for a couple of reasons.

One would be that he is making many decisions without even considering the impact on me - locking me out of his male mental house to put it in Harley terms.

A second reason for unease would be that this behavior indicates a big fear of abandonment. He reacted big time out of fear when I walked out. I don't think calling and calling 6 or 7 times that evening is a good thing.

Couple the huge fear of abandonment with a huge need for admiration, and I was worried that if not outright narcissistic, that he was certainly self absorbed.

So, then, the reason for the rejection is perhaps rooted in a fear of a deeper physical intimacy. He may link those acts with another person?

V.[/color]

[color:"blue"]Cinderella, [/color]


[color:"blue"]I feel your pain. I've married 3x.
Ex#1 was like your ex although an expectation developed that I would get him "ready" because even though he was interested he was never "ready". I was new to it and shy and by the time I was ready to explore a little, he had quit trying and had become very lazy.
Ex#2 impressed me with his technique - heck what did I know. That part of the relationship was not a problem until the emotional connection was gone and I no longer wanted to go there.
Ex#3 was very selfish and had problems with PE.

I am determined that I will no longer settle in any manner for substandard.

V.[/color]

[color:"blue"]FR,

Do you mean asking him what his ENs are? Or telling him what mine are?

V.[/color]

Oh, Diplomat!

Where are you?

I have something for you!

(Princess goes searching high and low through the castle.)

So sunny, how's this been going? (I'm curious, you don't have to answer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

[color:"blue"] MOS, (and anyone else that wants to respond)

You know I was pretty upset with the poor dude recently. His social calendar is crazy and we were afforded some time without any of my kids so I went over to his place for some time together. This is how the week went:

Thursday we watched TV - I got there kind of late to do much. Fri we hooked up for dinner w/ friends, Sat he left for a bachelor party and then we went for fireworks at another friend's house, sun friends stopped over and then we hosted a BBQ for his folks, Mon we went for wings, Tuesday he hosted a movie for friends, wed he went to a work bash, thurs he started a computer project and worked on it all evening, Friday his asst. was there to work for him. He worked on computer project while I cooked for party and then ate with him and his asst. Sat more cooking and then party, Sunday at 3am he was ill and we went to the hospital then slept the day away, Monday morning I went to my home again.

Gee would you feel satisfied or neglected with that schedule? 15 hours a week is a joke regarding undivided attention between us. BTW this has been discussed, but I think that he regards social time as together time. I dunno - working on it.

I hit a rock bottom for the old love bank and had totally broken it off. He wants to keep trying. He went to some trouble to plan some kid-friendly activities and plan a real date for Friday night.

He recently finished up a project and started talking about taking on another one. He wanted to know what I thought about them asking him to do this project and that he would probably be able to charge several thousand dollars for it. I reminded him that while I really didn't want to get in the way of his income, that I wasn't seeing much return on these projects for extra dough. (It wasn't like he was buying me anything or taking me places and wait this is a legit argument hold on...) He would be busy on the project at night and unable to see me or go anywhere. Then he would apologize and say he would make up for it. I cornered him on that issue with a what would you do to make it up and he countered saying spend some of the dough doing something fun. Then nothing would happen.

So this last time he told me he was missing me after our week together. I told him that I was glad to go home because I felt neglected and was actually glad to be alone in my home. In a nice way of course.

Last night I saw him and he cooked dinner for me! Usually he asks me if I am hungry and what I want and since there is nothing in his larder I feel like what can I say? There is always pressure there. I have recently started saying something like "well tell me what you have". Which is usually nothing. I have asked him in the past to just have some food there and I would make it for him if he can't cook... Anyway - it was a big deal to me a huge LB deposit.
I did get some kissing - but I think it was more because he wasn't feeling well and couldn't SF.

My biggest fears?

He has a huge fear of abandonment and (maybe) puts forth effort only when he feels threatened. (he kisses me when he wants to entice me - like to stay when I leave to go home and there has been no SF)

He stays in bad relationships to avoid being alone.

I tried your line - he did ask me if I wanted to go upstairs and I said I could be convinced. He didn't get it - he just repeated the question with more appeal in his voice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He wasn't feeling well - I think he was trying for me and not for him.

He was shocked when he realized that I would not be staying over on Friday - he had been apologizing for an appointment he made Saturday morning that would take a couple of hours. I said - hey that's ok I can find plenty at home to do and we can just get together for the BBQ at friend's house later.

We have not had what I would consider enough overnight time that I would assume an overnight visit - my kids and his dog prevent that from happening a lot. So I was kind of shocked that he had made this assumption that I would be staying over at his place all weekend and thus available to be neglected? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nah - but just how quickly he takes something for granted? Or does this sound like the narcissistic extension - how could I NOT be there...

Relationships always confuse me - probably picked another narcissistic weinner.

V. [/color]