Thought I'd bring this here Patriot

You said:
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to RB and LO. And in no certain order...

Have I taken responsibility for what I have done? Yes. Have I done everything right in trying to face it and take responsibility according to MB or 'reasonable' principles? No.

Have I grown? Yes. Do the 'goods' outnumber the 'bads'? I think so. still more road for me to travel... but who here is perfect?

That said, my point is really simple(though I wonder why I ALWAYS have to explain.... maybe I am just THAT confusing... or confused).

Win had an EA. Period. For whatever that is worth, there it is. She has done at least some things to deal with it(counseling and trying to post here... maybe other things). Yes, she needs to take responsibility for that. However, IF what she says is true, it sounds like bass used her 'EA' (that he knew about and watched happen) for his own sexual enjoyment. It seems to have been a component of their sexual relationship. Now, if you recall a poster not a few weeks ago practicing BDSM and everyone then said whatever two consenting adults do is whatever they do... then maybe you could take that into consideration here. My opinion is that her talking to other men on the internet and bass finding arousal in this is playing with fire. There are people out there that engage in threesomes and foursomes... or more, and as long as everyone is 'consenting' then it seems to be 'ok'. But like I said... it's playing with fire. It is a deviant sexual behavior and when a couple starts delving into such practice, it seems that one of them always takes the 'fun' a step further than the other one was wanting to go.

So, lets call win bins actions deviant and a step further than she needed to go. An EA if you will. I am fine calling it an EA if you are.

If so, then lets take stock of what bass has done, if it is in fact true(that said because he has not given his side... but I seriously doubt win bin would get away with saying this for too long before bass comes on here and refutes it...if in fact he can). Bass has had multiple same-sex partners and engaged in a PA. This is extremely deviant sexual behavior, obviously NOT okay'ed by win bin, and dangerous. Lemonman is the Dr., but I believe there is a MUCH higher chance of blood transfer during homosexual sex and he has exposed her to the possibilities of STDs from this.

For sarcastic punch, I challenge you to find an EA that produced a case of the clap... or worse. My keyboard is AT LEAST clean enough to not be carrying warts or syphilis no matter WHO I am talking to and about what. Unless I have some sort of sick phone penetration thing going on... I think that device is ok too.

Now, what advice would you give to a new poster here in this situation? I would submit that the first words to anyone in this crap would be 'sorry to hear' or some variation of that. "get tested for STDs" or the like. "protect yourself and read these books or things". Sure, win bin is not new, but did anyone think that his PA(and the manner of it) kinda brings a different set of challenges to her than her EA did to him.

And that is not even addressing the fact that he came here for help and support when all the while he was doing something evil and well within the context of why he was 'hurt' in the first place. Talk about the devil taking the moral high ground.

And then to have people get on here and gloss over her troubles to simply give a few words to her about this catastrophy only to be overshadowed in remining of her transgression(s).

It doesn't even seem decent. PA's are filthy. It is disgusting to even picture what goes on in them. Add to that one's perception(possibly) of homosexual sex, and maybe you want to vomit. Personally, I was a little sick. Call it the Army guy in me. But I know my bias and so I give credence to the other side of the coin.

So, her EA, while wrong and she needs to not do it again...I think the real issue of THIS thread is bass's PAs. That he hide from us all. And rode the moral high ground to the hilt. and endangered his wife. And so on.

geez... he had Pepper on his side somewhat giving him advice on what he needed to do. You think she doesn't feel a small bit betrayed knowing now that she was giving advice to an alien still riding the fence hard?? And lying to everyone?(not that I mean to single her out, but she is all about give us the real story so we can help you... and we did not get the real story)

I don't agree with win bin's EA. But then again, I don't agree with using other men to get revved up for sex with my wife. And in her situation, it blurs the lines a bit for me on EA or not, though falling in love was NOT something she should have done and I will call THAT the EA.

Something tells me she never used him having sex with other men to rev her up. And she is here to tell that story. So you and I get the truth, if in fact it is.

I for one think she needs to take responsibility for what she has done and stop blaming anything SHE CHOSE on bass. But what he did is the topic and she has a pretty fair reason to get something of her chest, I think.

I support you win bin. You are not perfect, but you have been wronged. And for that I am sorry. If you want someone to talk to, I would be more than happy to continue posting to you in threads on here. And I seriously hope you are not permanantly damaged from this.

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Just dumb
Toolkit for WSs

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I'll answer some of this in another post....gimme a minute

RBM

Hey now...

No debates tonight. I was just trying to get him to spend time with ME!!!! If you "take him to task" he will feel compelled to respond and it will take the whole evening!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

nah. Go ahead and 'take me to task'. I will catch it in the morning. This evening is pizza and wife time. I am done here for the day.

I know you have Pat, that was really rhetorical in nature...just trying to show an example is all


We are on the same page here Patriot....same script


Great, I agree but this helps Win how? By keeping score? Win was told about STD testing, she's a big girl and it probably won't take much for her to figure out H put her at risk, the highest risk of all categories.


Patriot, they aren't new and she did hear that, many times before I posted. Betrayal is betrayal is betrayal Patriot. I submit that my WWXW's affair would have been equally as devistating whether it was with one or 100 different men. The recovery process is the same. The script is the same. Win wasn't on board with marriage recovery from the start and her posts haven't really changed from day one except that she "stopped" contacting the OM, and now we learn from her that Bass drove him away...so really she is STILL a WS...just not actively is all.


Keeping score again Patriot. None of that helps, none of it. It just keeps fueling the fire with that thought process. It just isn't about her H anymore, as if it ever really was to begin with. It is about Win becoming a better person, changing her life, changing her program if you will. No matter what happens with her H and their marriage Patriot, they have children, they need a good parent to support and raise them. Somebody that is stable and decent, that makes good decisions and is a good example to them. That parent is probably going to be Win so Win needs to fix Win and not focus on H and his betrayal. Once she gets her own life in order then the decisions can be made about the future...C'mon Pat, you KNOW this stuff.


Listen Patriot...If it is true his actions indicate that he is very F-ed up, but is it better or worse than what she allowed? Forgive me if I refuse to rate one above or below the other. It's bad, they both exercised incredibly poor judgement. Read the posts by her again, it is real simple, she is still trying to justify, and how does that help her? It doesn't, the only thing that probably will help is a seperation so they can fix themselves and then make decisions.


Boundaries Patriot, obviously there were none for it to get to this point. If she wasn't "enjoying" the phone sex as well then why do it? Boundaries...because if she wasn't getting something out of it, she wouldn't have continued it when H was not around....get it? It wasn't "Just" when H was getting "revved up for sex" Patriot, she was doing it when he wasn't around as well


BINGO!!!!!!! There is the key point which she will still not do.

Saying something is wrong and taking responsibility for something is 2 different things Patriot.

I can say "Yes, it was so wrong of me to steal that ring and I'll do whatever it takes to make restitution" or I can do it fogged up, Wayward Spouse style "Yes, it was so wrong of me to steal that ring, but if they hadn't left it on the counter I wouldn't have taken it"

I know you see the difference there.


We all do Patriot, I do as well. Feeding the fire and avoiding the true issues will only delay and prolong the problem though and maybe we can agree on that?

Time for truth, time for healing, time tear away the masks she has been wearing and get on with building a better Win. REGARDLESS what the future holds for Bass and their family.

Patriot, this is no "take you to the woodshed" post at all so I hope you don't take it that way. I just see this new revelation as another way for her to justify and continue this behavior in a new relationship. How does that help her or the kids?

It's a betrayal, shake the foundations betrayal, but Win isn't even going to feel the full brunt of it until she gets the WS out of her system and will learn nothing from this whole experience.

It's a long, painful road they are on right now.

Thanks for letting me clarify a bit Patriot.

You 2 are funny...

Not taking Pat to task Frozen so don't worry, enjoy your evening together.

Just wanted to clarify is all and it can certainly wait. It isn't that important


Good night folks

RBM

I won't do a bunch of quoting... maybe some... but I hope I don't miss something.

First... no one seems to get my humor. I thought the keyboard line was funny. Maybe I am one f'ed up dude...

how does this help Win? By giving her compassionate support. By telling her that it is going to be ok if she wants it to. By telling her that the world is ugly, but you can still make it. And I challenge you with the same question. How does your reminding her to take responsibility for her actions help her? Lets consider the context of the moment before we answer that.

She has 'just found out'. I am sure you have read in that forum... or when people post JFO threads here. They are hurt. Destroyed. Hysterical. They say crap like "I don't know what to do" or "Please help me". She should certainly be given the helping hand that we extend to others. Her history here should NOT take away from the compassion and solid advice she gets about THIS situation.

Betrayal is betrayal is betrayal? I disagree. Betrayal is in the eye of the beholder. Something you consider betrayal, I might not... though I am sure there are numerous instances that we would both call betrayal. Also, you are correct. I do rank betrayals. Not unlike we as a society rank crimes. No one goes to death row over a traffic ticket. But you can go to death row over crimes. But traffic tickets result from crimes. I'm sure you see where this goes.

I do rank betrayal. That would be my perogative. I am not saying there is some great chasm from one type of betrayal to another. But, truth be told, I find Wins position ranking worse amongst us around here. Sure, he betrayed her. Bad. But she also got the added fun of finding his sexual orientation is not at all what he advertised. Betrayal again. And he was here on a marriage building site playing the good guy, making her the bad guy, all while he was engaged in some disturbing stuff. Betrayal yet again.

I do rank his betrayal higher than hers. That may or may not be the wrong thing to do. But it is what I do, and that is that.

I am sure she is a big girl. I wonder her state of mind? I made an assumption that I am still very confident to make. Her state of mind would have been shock and disbelief and anger. All emotion. All high up on the scale. So I push the STD thing and the compassion thing because she might not be operating on all 8 cylinders. If I was her with my frame of mind on homosexual sex, I wouldn't be.

I guess this all comes down to my issue your delivery.(and no, I want nothing to do with legislating responses on here. If I have a problem with something here, I seem to be letting people know, given the number of 'hey pat come talk to me over here' threads lately) If you care about Win and want to support her through this crisis, possibly a gentler tone would work. I don't know. I can't fix the world or change people, but what I saw was Win in a crisis... and that crisis was being overshadowed by HER problems. Even IF I could say his betrayal was = to hers(and I will not) this betrayal by him deserves to be addressed and not overshadowed by her betrayal of him.

She needed support. Let her get her emotions out. If they are non-productive or damaging, let her rant and rave for the day. Yesterday was crisis day. Today, you could go back and talk to her about HER issues, because she has had time to sleep on it. I guess give her time to scream in pain... then get back to her later about her issues she needs to work out, if you are truly after her best interest.

Again, I can't change the world or people. I just think about how I would want to be treated and couple that with what I want to be seen as. Win has issues to deal with. They can wait until tomorrow given the crisis of today, meaning let her feel the pain and hurt of this new issue, and then once this issue is not so fresh, start back to work on her again.

I have probably done a horrible job explaining. Sorry for that. Talk to you later

No,

you did a great job explaining Pat. I actually see what both of you are saying. And you are both kinda saying the same thing.

As I am both a WS and a BS, I understand that betrayel when all they have put you through for your A, and then you find out they have or had one too. It's even more enranging to find that out.

Sympathy is tough in that situation. Honestly - had I got too much sympathy - I might have continued to be one angry chick...I did a lot of - well he put me through, I should put him through.

BUT the wonderful honesty of my friends and family who reminded me - I had one, I was sick when I had one, I didn't like to be treated that way.....reminding me, now he was the depressed one, and he is likely to feel as I did and would treating him like crap because he did to me help the situation? NO

So I have told Sprint when I am hurting, but that's it - no bakclash, no anger...and wow - he makes tremendous progress.

Now the situations are DRASTICALLY different, as it sounds like Win's H has been carrying on for years and had been having his during the time of her EA... But it's not a matter of who is first - even if her H is a sexual addict as it sounds, I bet he was STILL hurt by the fact she fell in love with another, whether he was having same sex relations or not. Just because I had an affair, didn't mean Sprint's didn't devestate me. You wish that comparison would make things easier, but it doesn't.

If she is going to do well on her own, she has to remember, whether her H got off on her talks or not, she allowed it to happen, take responsibility for it. If she looses that, and becomes so focused on him, she will loose any self recovery she has made, as you get trapped in the negative, bitter resentful cycle, and whether her marriage ends or not, she will ultimately harm who she is.

Reborn I think was trying to make that point - with a little tough love, and Pat, I see you making the same point with a lot of compassion. I just see Win in a spot where she can't be angry too much yet - she needs to look at everything, and make a decision and get her H into help. Her world is crashing down...but I hear in her post how H chased OM away and he was great, and how dare he when he was having Affairs....I think Reborn read it too. NO MATTER WHAT, OM was not good to that marriage, and even if her H was having affairs, OM should have been chased away. She does state it is wrong, but still has a very foggy view on her OM, that it was wrong with him, but right because her H encouraged it, and right because he was having A's too.

I don't know what kinda love she needs - tough or compassionate...but I know during my time (once again very DIFF sitch) tough love from my close friends was what got me through still with me in tact. Too much sympathy would have brought up a negative cycle again, and then all the progress I made would have gone away....

lol now it's me saying I have probably done a horrible job explaining....my mouth rambles <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well thanks for the response, and thanks for not taking it as a spanking or a 2X4 to the head.

I see your point, I do understand what you are getting across about her sitch...and here comes the but...lol

Those responses have not worked on her from the start Patriot. People have been gentle, been kind, been gently persuasive with her from the start and where has that gotten anything? She is still in FULL-ON WS MODE (emphasis, not yelling)

My response was to the fact she isn't "suffering" from Bass' infidelity revelation so much as screaming NEENER, NEENER, NEENER! See I told you so you stupid people.

Being that she is still a WS, whether or not it was a part of their bizarre sex rituals, this new finding isn't a crushing betrayal yet, it is justification. The pain will come when the fog and emotions clear but that just isn't right now. She has been skilled, like all WS', at justification from the start.

Pat, clearly I agree that there have been some incredibly dangerous choices made. How they ended up doing phone sex and other things I am sure we have no clue about is decidedly playing with fire.

It seems to me that it was a perfect time to try and get the message across that no matter what Bass does (I mean no matter what, she has no control over that) or did, it isn't about him anymore. It is about her and the choices she is making.

Everything she has said since arriving was Bass' fault, none of it her own making, and we both know that just isn't the case.

Her claims of Emotional abuse by H is a legit concern, and many other things she has hinted at but never come out and said are a concern. I suspect there is much more we do not know (and probably a bunch I don't want to know)....

But really, It just doesn't matter now what the transgressions are.

I know that sounds harsh but dwelling on what Bass did or did not do is not going to make one wit of difference if she doesn't take ownership of her own transgressions, however they occured.

She is just using it to further lay blame at his feet, thats it. The tone and cintent of her postings haven't changed from day one.

One more thing and I'm done....

I understand what you are saying about ranking betrayals Patriot, I really do and 2 years ago I would have agreed whole-heartedly with you, no doubt.

If a friend of mine lied to me, my response to it would depend on the severity of the lie, how it effected my life and our relationship.

OTOH, being lied to by my spouse or SO is a different matter entirely. I see all lies in that sitch as a direct attack on my life and well-being. I'm not talking about telling me she bought 2 loaves of bread when she bought 3 here.

I am speaking of relationship ending lies, cheating, stealing, drug abuse, being a drunkard that sort of stuff.

Whether by ommission or outright lying.

If you hide drug abuse you are lying, if you hide alcohol use, cheating and so on.

I can't rank them now Patriot, I just can't. They are all equally vile. If my SO were to hide or lie about drug usage, it would matter not to me how much she was doing, how many drugs she was using the pain would be the same to me. Same with alcohol and the same with cheating. It doesn't matter how many times she cheated or how many partners or with what sex they were, the pain is the same.

But that pain is not something Win is feeling right now, she isn't capable under the circumstances aand my point, along with Owls and a few others is this...seperate yourself from Bass and his problems and look inside yourself, work on yourself because that is all you have control over.

Thats it and if anybody could use a 2X4 it is those 2.

Alright all done...thanks for a well thought out reply Patriot

RBM

I will agree that her using his transgression to justify hers is not healthy or correct.

No evil by one person TRULY justifies evil by another person. My teenagers use that line and it is a ridiculous defense. But, I was overlooking that, for the moment, to allow Win to expel the bile she had built up over her new found information. My guess is there was plenty of it.

Once the moment had passed, if Win was truly interested in healing and moving forward with life, then we could address her. That being her choice.

Seems our greatest difference is timing. When to apply the reality. I felt applying it sooner rather than later lessened the punch of this specific event. And in my mind, this event has punch.

Thats all, really. Maybe I am becoming more protective of emotional people because my wife is an emotional person. She has certainly come to understand more about a logical person, which is what I am.

Anyway, good discussion. I have some new perspectives to consider. I hope you do to. Thanks for the talk.

And to Win, I truly hope that you are able to move forward and get past this purgatory. May god watch over you regardless.

Pat - I always enjoy these converstations you have with other people - you are a very well thought our person <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And it seems all the other well thought out people tend to get into these discussions with you.

I always learn alot from these threads <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> These things always help me remember that not everyone things alike or like me...and helps me further in my own sitch - where Sprint is a very different thinking being than I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks dorry. I like debates and discussions.

The exchanging of ideas and all that. The chance to help someone or be helped.

Anyway, I hope you and sprint are doing well. Say hi to him for me.

Thank you again.

I will do so (say hi to him)

He is online once in awhile on MSN - catch him when he is on sometime - i am sure he would love to talk if he isn't busy at work. He always liked you and Froz <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He stopped talking because, well - he wasn't dealing with me anymore and moving on in life with someone else, so anything related to me got dropped.

Well I have to agree with you that the difference is timing....

I appreciate the back and forth.

I truly didn't have any qualms about your perspective and I appreciate the fact you don't either.

Thanks it was good.

Win will be Win however she chooses to be...

I think the bottom line is you can lead a horse to water.....blah, blah,blah..KWIM?

Don't Worry Patriot, God loves his children and will look out for her in his way.

RBM

Aint that the truth...I spent too much time trying to lead my horse Sprint to the water....lol realized that big ole horsey had to find his own water - and figure out if it was the water hole he wanted to be at!

Learned lots about the fact that I control NOTHING <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and finally am okay with that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dorry- are you trying to say you've seen allot of Horses-[censored] lately?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, couldn't help myself

LMAO - no that WAS funny

Not anymore I don't see any horse-[censored] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but a few months ago I sure was lol - seeing alot of a$$ holes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />