Good post Pat....I've been wondering the same.

Hey Fox... I think I know what Mortarman is getting at... You should treat this as an exercise and do what he says.

It seems like you are overwhelmed by the need to 'do' something about all this. That's a pretty natural reaction. My advice at this point as to what you should 'do' is that you should back off on physical actions and focus on mental/emotional actions.

Like, for example, getting calmed down and establishing a perspective on all this. In other words, get your thoughts and feelings straight before you firehose your wife with them.

Also, take a step back and get a little bit analytical. Do Mortarman's exercise and post back here. Get educated... learn as much as you can about the psychology of what's going on here. How it happens, why it happens, what you can do about it.

Also, decide what end result you want. Commit to it (no more waffling) and start working out a PLAN that will bring you in the direction you want to go. You can get TONS of help with that here.

I'll be totally straight up here. The way you are approaching this scares me. Based on what I've seen here over the past 6 years, the way you are handling this will NOT lead to a reconciliation, nor any personal growth. Only pain and scars on both sides and a failed marriage.

Please slow down and check yourself. Now. The most important thing for you RIGHT NOW is to get grounded. I know you are praying, and that's important, but are you taking the time to listen for the answers?

One more thing... IMHO, even if there was no physical intimacy with the OM, I think your W's actions still qualify as an affair. Having said that, I nonetheless want to second Pat's post, cause she's got some excellent advice for you.

J

i just talked to my wife for over an hour on the phone...

She said that shes afraid if she comes back she'll just get hurt again and that she says "she can't do it anymore". Said she thinks that if she comes back, I'll just do what I did before because im getting what I want. Said shes uncomfortable around me in person cuz all I talked about was getting back together.

She said she doesn't look at me as the same person and that its great that im fighting for our marriage now, but that i should have fought for it a long time ago when she still cared.

She said there's been too much damage done and that she doesn't even look at me the same anymore.

Said that right now a divorce is what would make her happiest - told me to go out and meet girls...

She said that she isn't giving up - that she's tried everything; that I am gave up a long time ago when the problems were around and didnt do anything to save our marriage.

I told her that I am here for this marriage and that I don't expect anything in return; she told me she's busy that whole week with her family for her birthday says she doesn't even have time for me during her birthday week.

Asked if her a divorce was what she wanted and if it would make her happy and she said "probably - i dont know"...

Asked her if she wanted to file; we're not doing it yet.

She said I'm important enough that she wants me in her life as a friend; but that if I can't deal with that then she'll have to do some letting go of her own. She also said, "I don't know how much I believe in God anymore - this whole thing has shaken my faith"..."You've put me through so much hurt, staying up while I went to bed along, staying on the computer, etc. I just cried myself to sleep" she said,

"You've said you'd change before and you didn't" "It shouldn't have taken me leaving for you to change."

She said if you have to go back to Pullman, then fine - I'm never going back there again - it hurts too badly.

Said I shouldn't have told her I was going to have a baby with her and then backed down; said she needed a man who was ready for the next step and committed.


------------------------

That's just some of what she said, dunno what to think anymore. Or what to do.

I think the best thing to do at this point is to just get a divorce and remain her friend...

If God wants our relationship to mend - it will happen; if we were meant to be together; she'll fall in love again - or she won't...

Fighting this right now is pointless.

Wow...should have done this a long time ago?!?!

Give me a break...you've barely been married a year!!!

Fox, I've rooted for you for a while, but honestly at this point, it sounds to me like she needs to go off somewhere and grow up.

Bluntly, I'm of the opinion that you need to quit letting her dictate how she's going to keep you in her life. If she wants to be married, and you do too, then fine. If she wants to be friends, and you do, then fine. But if she wants you in some capacity other than what you want, there's no reason that says it HAS to be her way.

My wife wanted us to stay 'best friends'...she had this whole picture in her mind of us being best friends while she was running off to live with OM!! I told her point blank that not only was she betraying and destroying our marriage, she was doing the same thing to our friendship as well, and that if she left me for someone else, there was no way I'd ever be her friend either.

Perhaps you need to do the same thing, if that's how you feel. Personally, I'm starting to think that it's time to cut your losses and turn her loose. If she matures at some point, you might consider a relationship with her then, but right now it sounds to me like she's all focused on doing what SHE wants to do...with no care or regard for what YOU want. Not a good basis for a relationship.

Owl -

she told me "sorry im being selfish - but i need to be strong for myself now - i spent way too much time concerned with what made you happy; and let you walk all over me."

I'm calling work and quitting; I'm moving to Oregon to be with the only true family I have left until I go back to school - work means nothing if I can't perform to my potential because I'm an emotional wreck.

I guess the biggest thing for me through this is that I feel like she's making a stupid decision - she said she tried everything but she wont try counseling; wont give me a chance to prove myself to her; is throwing away school; i can see how I hurt her badly; she said the neglect im feeling now is what she felt for a year...if thats true - i can see why she's leaving,

But has she forgot what she did to me? Sleeping at an OM's house? Beating me physically? Etc. etc.? Why do I still remember our relationship for the good memories but she tells me "All i think of when I remember us is the hurt and the pain"???

All she kept saying was "this is your fault" when i told her that it all came down to her giving up on us; she told me she wasn't going to listen to this crap and threatened to hang up the phone.

When I asked if about her not contacting me ever - she said she figured I needed space; yet when I gave her space I "ignored her"

Okay, you still havent done what I asked. I wanted you to do as Dewt said...to go thru that exercise for a minute. Why? Because by learning to analyze a problem, you will learn how to deal with it right, and not react to it. You sit on here, flailing around like a fish in the bottom of the boat. Only concentrating on the bad. Never looking at the good. Now I dont know you, and I dont know your wife. But watch what I do with this latest post of yours:

Did you call or her? Did you start the R talk or her? Important because what you are hearing is a woman that does not want to hear relationship talk, does not want to talk about the problems or their solutions or how you are better. This appears to be a woman that wants to live her life. Are you someone to talk to, or are you someone she wants to live with?

Honesty. Very good. She is scared. Why? What is it she cant do? Marriage? That's doubtful. She sounds like she wants a marriage. What she cannot do is what was being done before. This is why I said to go thru that exercise Fox...because your wife is telling you EXACTLY what you must do to do your part in repairing this marriage. And all you here is "it's over." If you dont start listening (and stop talking), then it is over.

Sure...and that is a justified fear. What are you doing to take that fear away? Talking? That doesnt mean anything. Are you standing up and being a different man, showing her through your ACTIONS that she doesnt have to go thru that again? Well, you'll say to me "But we arent around each other for her to see anything." Really? Seems like you two talk a lot. The things she will see will be greatly enhanced in your silence. With you just doing what is right, instead of just talking about it or waiting for her. And believe me...she will see that!!

Bingo!!! She is right. She doesnt want the old relationship. She doesnt want to talk about it. She wants out of it. Now, do you want out of it? If so, then there is an option where you both get out of it...and into a new marriage with her. But, as the man...it really is all going to depend on you. You are going to have to grow up here Fox. She wants a husband, a man. Someone she can look up to and lean on. Not someone with words coming out of his mouth. This is really all on you!


Okay. And it is great. Fighting for it is what you are supposed to do. But you also are supposed to be improving, offering her what she was missing. So far, I havent seen that. And it is obvious that she hasnt either.


More honesty...are you listening? Can you read this without thinking "divorce?" Can you see that she is drawing the line and saying "Buddy, I wanted it all with you. You didnt give that to me. I am no longer waiting for you to give it to me." And in between that she is saying "And if a miracle happened and you were no longer that guy you have been, I would be there with you in a second."


Read this. Listen. Same stuff I said above.

Trying to push it all on you. But guess what? You are the husband...it is all on you. Granted, she shouldnt be doing this. But the biggest thing that will improve this marriage is not what your wife does, it is what you do.

So you do what you can...and continue to get your act straight.

She doesnt know!! That is very evident. Why, if you dont want a divorce Fox, do you continue to talk about it. Unless you want it, dont offer it up. Dont talk about it. Just consider it not on the table.

Again, divorce talk...stop this please.

Wow!! Can you see the gold mine she just gave you? Of course not. All you probably saw i nthat was "I want to be friends in divorce." What I saw was "you didnt come to bed, you werent meeting my needs (the ones listed). I cried myself to sleep." Honesty, Fox. She is telling you what she wants, what she expects. You gonna keep talking about being that guy, or are you going to be that guy?

No it shouldnt have. But here you are. And the question is still there...are you gonna change?

If you are divorcing, why does she care where you go? Cant you see? She is setting up boundaries. She is not trying to divorce you. Now, if you wont improve, wont work with her, wont respect her boundaries, then yes...she is going to divorce you. But she is saying right here that she doesnt want to go to Pullman and you can go if you want. Again, is she was divorcing you, then she wouldnt care where you went.

She needs a husband...a man. She wants commitment, honesty, steadfastness. To do the right thing. She wants a leader. Fox, ARE YOU LISTENING TO HER???

In His arms.

Alright...

This is where it all comes out. This is the turning point in my life. Guys, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart with everything I have for being here to counsel me. You say that I'm wise beyond my years, but in essence I am still a boy, and I'm lost in life. I have no family to turn to through these problems, and when things like this come up I have nowhere to turn to. You all have given me a atmosphere filled with adults who love and care about me, and that is something I will always be in your debt for.

There isn't a day that goes by that I don't wish my mom and my dad were here for me, but they aren't - and crying about it, although sometimes, especially now, feels very good - it is unproductive.

I can't express the sadness I feel in my heart right now through words. No tears, no screaming or heartache could ever express rightfully the amount of pain I'm in right now - and although wallowing in it won't help anything; I need to have someone, anyone hear me about. I have spent my whole life begging God to stop the pain, begging God to finally give me something that would make me happy, and give me a reason to celebrate life; I lost my family, I lost my friends, I finally was swallowed up from the clutches of that hopelessness when I married Shannon, and was never happier in my life; and now - that too, is gone. Guys - there is no saving this marriage; a fact that I should have accepted a long time ago. I have put every ounce of heart and soul that I have in my body into trying to save us; I finally had something in my life worth holding on to, and I let it slip away...the guilt I feel and the worthless I feel because of this is nearly unbearable.

Through all of this, you've read my testimony, I've tried to hard to stay true to God and his word. I continue to pray - I continue to believe; but this all keeps happening; I find myself asking now, "Why God are you doing this? When will I finally get a break?" It especially punched a hole in my heart when Shannon told me on the phone,

"I don't think I believe in God anymore".

I didn't know what to say. I couldn't say anything; I was dead silent for literally two minutes. My heart sank. I've driven her away from God - what have I done??????? I don't know where I'm going in life, I'm [censored] terrified - I don't want to end up like my parents; but I see it happening. I ruined my marriage because I was selfish; I didn't accept my wife for who she was; I drilled into her for her past; why did it even matter!?!?!?!?!?

I'm trying so hard to be faithful to God; I've fought for this marriage - but my life feels like its spiraling out of control.

I just quit my job, I can't do it anymore - I'm moving to Oregon to be with the only family I have left; I can't work when I can't even stand on my own two feet. My only option here is to file for divorce, and try my hardest to erase this guilt from my memory - something that I will live with for the rest of my life...I pray it doesn't ruin it. I have this overwhelming fear that I'm going to go back to school where we spent our lives as husband and wife together and lose it...I can't be around that. I can't be around the memories and constantly be reminded of how I [censored] up and ruined out marriage - before she married me, and we were even together; I was already depressed enough at school to the point where I almost dropped out. I have two years left of school; but I don't know if I will physically or mentally be able to do it...I feel like I have nothing.

Why do I feel like this marriage ended because of me? I feel like it was all my fault; every ounce of it. Why does she hate me so much!?!?! I still can't answer this: Why the hell do I only think about the good after all she did; yet she can only think about the bad!?

I can't stop crying....I feel like I'm watching my mom get rolled out of our house all over again - like I'm reliving it in a different time and place; that feeling of hopelessness. It won't go away.

Fox,
your wife needs help. My wife needs help. Guess what? We cant help our wives. And THAT my friend is the toughest thing. There aint nuthin' we can do. Their choices are theirs, and theirs alone. ALL we can do is take care of ourselves. Be strong. Stay faithful. Be the lighthouse in the fog. But if these ships are going to wind up on the rocks because their captain's dont know how to navigate, and wont listen to anyone trying to truly help them, there isnt a thing we can do. Its frustrating. It hurts more than anything. But you know what? Others have done this and survived. But we have to have higher goals than surviving. We have to thrive. And through faith in our awesome God, we will thrive. During my own depths of despair, I had a friend tell me something that really stuck with me...."this too shall pass." And it will. Trust me. It will.

quitting work??

Knock it off. Stop making rash decisions. You are going to sign yourself up for more hurt if you keep reacting and not thinking.

Get ahold of yourself and get to work. Do your job and be a professional. Then, when you get home, start planning what you do with your life.

You are 20. This is not the end of the world. Get yourself under control.

Guys,

I know she's giving me signs and clues -

I'm too *** emotionally damaged from my childhood to give her a strong man. I'm not strong. All i *** do is cry all the time and feel sorry for myself. No matter how hard I try it doesn't change. I've been in counseling for years; I've tried from the bottom of my *** heart to change but it all comes back to the same crossroads. These scars won't go away.

Do you know how bad it [censored] hurts to have someone tell you to do something to change; but no matter how hard you *** try you CANT?!?!?!?

I'm not ready for marriage; I can't be a strong man - let alone anything. I wouldn't be surprised if I just ended up like my parents; its beginning to look that way.

stop. Go to work. relax.

also... try not to give the mods a full time job... sheesh.

i can't go to work - i already quit. i have no way of getting there.

I'm going back to school as soon as possible and setting myself up there to move on with my life. I'm going to get a job as soon as I get back there; going to have to get used to staying in our apartment alone.

If what mortarman said is true, since it looks like I'll be doing a separation - I will still be in our apartment when I go back; that will take some adjusting.

Since I am twice your age, stand by for a few 2x4s...because you need them.

Fox, we all do understand. Many of the people here have similar backgrounds. And it is okay to be upset. But surrender, even if your marriage fails...is not an option.

We do hear you. And your fellow BSs here understand. Believe me. Do you think my wife got into the affair while I was such a great husband? Dont you think I heard the same things out of my wife when she was saying it was over? Of course!! And in many cases, she was right!

He did give this to you, Fox. Maybe this is why this is all happening. You have that. Are you saved? If so, if you have a relationship with Jesus, I want to ask yo ua question. If tomorrow, you lost everything you have, and everything you ever can have...and the only thing left in your life is Jesus...would He be enough? That is the point of all of this. He wants you to want Him. He wants you to see, if you are saved, that you already have EVERYTHING!!

Sounds to me that you let your wife become your savior. She is not capable of doing that. Not in the sense of saving you from this world's pitfalls...and especially not saving you from death.

Who says? If you believe that, then it is true. If you dont, then we dont know if it is true. Plain and simple.

You done flailing around then and ready to get smart, trust God...and do what you really need to save your marriage??

You are praying for the wrong things, Fox. It sounds like you want God to make it all better for you. But maybe it needs to not be all better right now. Maybe this is what it is going to take to get you and your wife to pull your heads out. Maybe the pain is the only thing that is going to help you two. So why pray for no pain? What you should be praying for is "His will."

YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT KIND OF POWER. Do you understand me?? Her relationship with Jesus is private, one-on-one. This whole thing is all about her relationship with Him also. God is using this mess. Are you going to fight it, or are you going to be the leader of your home and go with this and follow God?

All questions to aks yourself. But in the end, it really only matters what you do today, and tomorrow.

Because you are fighting for your marriage your own way...and not God's.

And thus by doing all of this, you are proving that she is right to leave. That she does not have a husband that is willing to be the leader, willing to follow God, willing to do whatever it takes...until death do you part. No, there are limits. Too much pain, and you give up. That's fine...but just understand that you have not earned your way out of this marriage. And by giving up, you only confirm that she is right to leave.

Because you are the leader!!

Because you are not protecting her, you are not leading. If your wife called you and said someone was stalking her...would you break every traffic law to get there to protect her? Or would you ignore her...or just talk about it on the phone? She is incapable of protecting herself, or leading your family. She is angry because yo uare capable, and have not done so. And then, you on top of all of that, come talking about divorce and moving, etc. So she is also married to a quitter. Most women would be angry of having to follow a parked car!

I understand the pain. But you must straighten up here. Nothing is going to fix the things of the past. NOTHING! You are going to have to be a man now and take that pain and do something with it.

In His arms.

I haven't filed any papers yet; I'm trying to figure out what is best for me right now; and in order to be a leader, I have to regain myself in an emotional and spiritual sense. This is why I'm going to be around someone who is close to me in Oregon - there comes a point in everyone's life where they NEED support to get through things; and right now, before I can walk on my own again - I need to recover from this emotional blow. Once that occurs, I can focus on recovering in other ways; I already have a job offer in Oregon, so I'm not throwing away my finances - that would just be stupid. This is about me growing for myself right now, and I can't do that where I am - I need to be around family. I am not going to divorce her; I will do the separation - but I am going back to school alone and focusing on my schooling and life in general. I will remain in contact with her, I'll call her and write her; but what she does is ultimately up to her.

Okay...let's say EVERYTHING you said here is true. Guess what? Mortarman is also just like you. I am incapable in my own power to give my wife what she needs.

You are asking all the right questions, Fox. You are not listening to the answers though.

You must stop thinking you are going to change into something else. You are Fox. If you are saved though, then you do have the power...because yo uare more than Fox...you are Christ-in-Fox. You have to exchange your weaknesses, your doubts, your inablities...for the power of the One who never falters or fails. Hand it all to Him. Tell Him that you cant do it, you will never be able to do it. Tell Him that you want Him to do it. To use you...that you are submissive to His very will.

How big is your God? Is this too tough for Him? If you'll turn it all over to Him, including your will...then He will take charge. Once He does that...then your wife will have a husband that was meant for her. One that can do all of those things. One that can get past his childhood. One that can be at peace.

He doesnt promise you happiness. He does promise you joy. And there is a difference between the two.

In His arms

Mortarman - how do I do this? I want to so badly, but I keep falling short and worrying about what I am doing and not God - how do I give it all up to him? I am trying to but for some reason I keep worrying about all this stuff. I do need God, I know I can't do this without Him - how do I become Christ-in-Fox?!?!

Fox, you just took the first step!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

By asking this very simple question, you now show you want to hear the answer. And I am going to give it to you right now. Ready???

How do you become Christ-in-Fox? Fox, if you are saved...then you already are. What you are asking is akin to a person who is sitting in a chair bemoaning that they want to sit in a chair. You cannot try to be what you already are.

What you need to do is recognize who you are in Christ. That you must trust Him. Trust Him when it gets bad. Trust Him when He says to take a path that only looks lined with mines. Trust Him.

When you make a decision, any decision...do you run it by Him first? Do you try to discern His will?

This battle is fought from your knees Fox. All of lifes battles are. Are you willing to get on your knees and submit to His will? Are you willing to do WHATEVER He asks, for as long as it takes?

In the end, I know God wants your marriage to succeed. But all of this is bigger than that. He is trying to change you Fox. He is trying to help you heal. My wife is a nurse. And sometimes they do things to patients that hurt at the time. They CAUSE pain. Why? In order to save them. Sometimes, change involves pain. Can you say thank you to Him for your pain?

Ultimately, none of us can answer the specific questions of what God wants you to do. The pseicifics, the day-to-day stuff..is between you and Him. it is your job to find them out, to listen to Him. To read and study His word. To talk to fellow believers, who He will talk through. To pray and expect Him to answer (the Bible says if you pray but you dont expect Him to answer...then He wont answer).

This is personal Fox. We can help you with the generalities. And God will use us and this forum to help you find His will. But in the end, it is personal. It is just you and Him.

God says in Galatians that He isnt here to hurt you, but to help you, to profit you. Do you believe that?

In His arms.

Well, I TOLD YOU WHAT TO SAY. You listened to others and added things that did NOTHING but hurt your cause. I have put in bold the things you added to what I advised you to write. I also put in bold the things that OFFENDED HER and made her DEFENSSIVE. Making her defensive is NOT GOING TO WORK. By saying those things that you want to call "babble", the only thing you did was to make her more DEFENSIVE. That does not work with a WS. It does not matter who is right or who is wrong. What matters to the WS is THEIR FEELINGS. NOT YOURS, BUT THEIRS. The only thing that happens with the type of comments that you made that offended her, is that they get defensive. The only way to keep a person from being defensive is to AGREE with their point of view. This is WHY I told you EXACTLY what to say. The more YOU SAY, the BIGGER chance you have of making ANOTHER MISTAKE THAT PUSHES HER FURTHER AWAY. Quit trying to find some deep, great response that will make her come running back into your arms. Quit trying to secretly PREACH to her about how much you care about marriage and your vows. She is only going to tell you..."Why didn't you care when I was trying so much? I did care about my vows but was doing all the work, while you were on your lazy [censored] playing on the computer." THAT IS WHERE HER MIND IS, and you aren't going to change it by "reverse babble" and trying to point out to her your superior knowledge about vows and being faithful and yada yada... She feels she really tried and is only going to defend herself when you try and point out her faults... Now you are thinking of calling her and SPILLING YOUR GUTS EVEN MORE. If you would have held back the the things in bold below, you would have been a step closer to diffusing her anger and a step closer to her seeing you as a changed man who is now acting mature and kind.... Think about it..


Here is a recap of your reply. Things in bold should NOT HAVE BEEN SAID... Her reply is below that.. Notice that she PICKED UP on the things in bold. It only caused her to be more angry with you because it came across as sarcastic and as if you were preaching. That does not work..

quote:
1.
Sent -

this is the letter:


"Shan... Sorry about appearing short with you. That is not my intention and I do apologize. However I have been very busy trying to juggle a lot of things and have not had much time to keep in contact.

I know we have some things to go over, so let me know when it is best for you and I will try my best to accomodate...

I don't know what is going to happen in the future and really am not going to worry about it. I am just trying to take things as they come and live one day at a time.

As for your statement about 'still being married', I am living up to my vows and currently still faithful. How is it going for you? This question is one that has been on my mind a lot. I truly miss my wife. Please let her know.
Well, I do have to run. I hope you don't think this is short or impersonal again, because that is not my intention. You were right though, in that this time apart was probably what we needed. I'm sorry we didn't do it sooner.
Talk to you later,

-A"



I am living up to my vows too and I have been faithful, but that comment souded a bit sarcastic as if you didn't believe that I was actually staying faithful to you. And what do you mean by you missing me? One minute you are telling me to give you the papers to sign, and then you say you miss me? And the way you said that last sentence about missing your wife and letting her know...well I am your wife, not someone else. Is that who you feel I have become...someone else? You were MARRIED to someone else, because I was turned into someone that wasn't me. Always working, cooking, cleaning, etc....This is who I have always been and I am finally regaining my personality...the one you supposedly fell in love with. I guess I just wasn't enough for you or something. Maybe I just read into your messages too much and that's not what you meant at all, and if so, I apologize, but next time, re-read your messages and watch how you word things, because you know I will pick up on it and call you on it.

god just forget it. its obvious its too late for me to do anything anyways.

I tried to save things; people told me NOT to do reverse babble and people DID! I AM LOST HERE IM JUST TRYING TO FOLLOW PEOPLE'S ADVICE. I can't follow two bits of advice at once.

Forget this - she wants to hate me then fine; she can go get used by other guys again for all I care. I'm sick of putting up with this crap and suffering for this. I'm sick of caring.