Today I took myself to a movie for the first time in ages. I invited H to go, but he didn't want to go, he wanted to watch the ball game. I went to an early show (noon) so I'd be home for most of the game.<P>As you know, I do reviews, so I often go myself.<P>When I got back, the cordless phone was off its base on the table by the couch. Now, H isn't much for talking on the phone, and I asked "Who called?" He said, "No one." <P>I KNOW, just as sure as I'm sitting here, that when my phone bill comes in, there'll be a call to her house between noon and 2:30 today. I just know it.<P>I know Harley says that all activities not including the spouse should be ended, but I can't do that. I can't not see any movies that he doesn't want to see. I haven't seen any of my friends for six months because I am with him all the time. We spend two hours together each night and most of the weekend together. Only rarely are we not in the same ROOM.<P>Yes, I'm his wife, but I'm an individual too. And I don't think it's unreasonable to want to go to a movie, or to see a friend occasionally, without him feeling neglected and running right to the phone to call her.<P>I really resent having this hanging over my head -- that if I'm not fulfulling ALL of his needs 24 hours a day 7 days a week, that I'm somehow neglecting him, and he goes running to her, even if just by phone. Believe me, I am NOT neglecting him. Every woman friend I have says, "I would NEVER do for a man what you do for him."<P>Every time I go out, I ask if he minds, and he says no. I don't have a summer home in his head. I can't live like a prisoner in this house, only doing what he wants to do, only going where he wants to go.<P>I know he's a needy, high-maintenance guy, and I can accept that. But don't I have a right to do things that he doesn't want to do? To see a woman friend every now and then?

Whoa!!! You are making a big jump here. Let's suppose he did call her. HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT CHOICE!!! I think this 'fulfilling needs' stuff can go too far. You are making yourself responsible for how he chooses to act every second of every day. <P>Of course you are entitled to go to a movie or out with a female friend. I read something interesting the other day. Maybe you are willing to take responsibility for his actions because its scarier to accept that you have absolutely no control over what he does. <P>You don't know that he was lonely or resented you going to the movies. Maybe he couldn't wait to get you out of the house so he could call her!! Harsh, I know, but possible. So stop beating yourself up.<P>And -- maybe he didn't call her.

I don't really know what to say except .......................if he did call HER and the phone was left in a different location he sure wasn't using his head. I think you are totally entitled to go where you want when you want and with whom you want within reason. There is such a thing as being together too much and yes you are an individual. You go girl <P>*heartache*

Dazed...my wise friend who can cut to the heart of the matter and tell someone the uncomfortable truth with wit, style and grace...I think you are over reacting...hopefully.<P>Wrong number...meaningless call...he called innocent person...who knows.<P>You certainly can not leap to he called her. It certainly wouldn't hold up in a court of law. If I read this correctly, you didn't even specifically ask if it involved her. But yet you are acting like that in fact is the truth.<P>I sure hope he didn't call her. If he did he is a hopless bumble head...but it still doesn't mean anything questionable. Insensitive..you bet...adulterous? <P>Of course you need to go to movies...it is your job so it is not even recreational. <P>I believe you are acting on your fears...not the truth. <P>If my H and I had to spend all our recreational moments doing something we both enjoyed equally, more or less, we'd be in big trouble. I bend and hopefully do not break my bones, a lot. He think he does, but doesn't. But we are just too different to be twins and that's OK.<P>Now don't get on that downward spiral by acting "as if". Either ask him directly (and I think you need to for your peace or mind) or let it go. Of course check the phone bill.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Have you used the phone yet? Try *69 or redial...don't know if you can do both.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

No, I didn't specifically ask, because that would just cause a big fight. I've told him (in a two-paged, 10-point-type, single-spaced letter) EXACTLY how I feel about the situation, and if that's not enough, there's nothing else I can do.<P>And I will NOT snoop. All that does is make me nuts.<P>It would be easier if he'd just come out and SAY "I get lonely when you're not home." Then I'd reserve all my moviegoing to 9:30 PM shows, after he goes to sleep, and we could work something out. But he NEVER tells me if something bothers him. I had male friends? He never said a word. "It wasn't my place to be bothered." I talked to this guy at work? "It wasn't my place to be bothered." He doesn't like it when I go to my mother's for four days (which I now haven't done for a year)? "It wasn't my place to be bothered."<P>He will NOT tell me what his needs are, even if they're unreasonable, and so there's no way to negotiate. I have to guess. Since March, I've guessed correctly, but it's starting to be clear that his needs involve me being home all the time.<P>If he DID call her, it's classic passive-aggressive stuff. But I cannot live my life as a prisoner of my home because I'm afraid of what he'll do. This week I'm going with a friend (female) to a charity benefit. This will be my first real night out in over six months, and I won't be home till after he goes to sleep (which he does by 9 PM). I'm quite sure that he'll either call her or make plans to go out -- presumably with her, or with this other guy, which will also presumably include her.<P>I don't object to him going out if he wants to...but when he KNOWS how much this bothers me, I have to assume it's passive-aggressive when he does.<P>No, I don't know for sure if he called her. But I do know that he doesn't answer the phone most of the time (we get a lot of solicitors), his one guy friend is out of the country for 8 weeks, and he's not about to call his father. So given that I went out, it's a pretty good bet.<P>The bottom line, here, is that I'm beginning to think my therapist is right: that nothing I do short of tying myself to his side will keep him from doing stuff like this if he wants to. I am more devoted than most women I know, and if that's not enough, well, then I'll just have to weather it. I am too bright and too educated and too independent to live in fear of leaving my H's side for fear he'll run to someone else.<P>If that happens, I'll deal with it then. Hard to do, but I have no choice. I feel trapped.

Hi D & C,<P>I am not surprised you feel trapped...I have never really agreed with the idea that we have to, or should fulfill each others emotional needs..that intimates that we are responsible for the other feeling good or bad...good if you are taking care of me...bad if you are not...<P>I would have more confidence in the long term prospects of my relationship if my partner made the decision to be with me because they wanted to and not because they thought I was fulfilling something they felt they needed....<P>People in my view DO NOT have affairs because their emotional needs are not met by the other...I think that is a cop out...an excuse used mainly because they do not know why they have the affair in the first place...and data collected from people in this position used as a basis for this belief is erroneous in my humble opinion...<P>The reasons for engaging in affairs go much deeper than this....some include:<P>1. Fear of intimacy....eg: if in my early life I felt... unsupported/abandoned/neglected/ignored by my Mom (or mother figure that I loved) I could develop a mistrust of females and certainly a fear of loving them too much, getting too close to them in case they hurt me....so when I marry and we get on well together and I love her very much that is when my fears of hurt abandonment etc come up and I have an affair to put distance between us allowing me relative safety...sometimes if my fear is great I will leave subtle clues of my infidelity that can be found..so that she will accuse me and I can deny or admit it... effectively protecting myself against her getting too close to me and giving me control over the situation..then I can use all sorts of excuses and blame her lack of fulfilling my emotional needs for my having the affair in the first place...<P>2...Fear of partners mortality.....when I realise (subconciously) that my partner can die (sometimes can be bought on by an illness she may have had) the more I love her the deeper will be this fear of losing her, so to protect myself from the pain of loss I will have an affair to put distance between us insulating myself from the future loss...(This may all sound silly but true nevertheless)<P>3. Fear of my own mortality...usually only happens in mid life when one realises that one is nearer to their death than their birth...this is when I will search for my youth...seeing if I still have it...trying to recover my imagined charm...masculinity...sexiness to younger women...virility...somehow pushing death backwards...proving to myself in some way that I am too young to give it all away just yet....and could start wearing chains and an open shirt to show off my chest...wearing rings/earings etc to show off my flair and flamboyance...drive a sporty car...become very flirty...and generally do an about face reversing roles so to speak allowing the head below my belly to do the thinking while the one on my shoulders becomes blind and ineffective....<P>There are quite a few more reasons for this behaviour (such as spiritual contracts, delusions, dreaming, etc)too long to cover here but the few extracts will give you an idea of some of the motivations...<P>Having said all that we are all individuals and act according to our inner agendas whatever they may be..and would be foolhardy for me to say everyone does this because....etc etc...<P>You can support your H without being slave to his supposed needs...this does not mean neglecting him or not being loving and caring....<P>If you live your life for you...he can add himself to that ...but the responsibility then becomes his not yours...if he does choose to add to you without you catering to him..then he would be doing it from his heart...and will last...and you will feel free to accept without feeling trapped...<P>When you live for you ....your self esteem will rise...and your self assurance and love with it...and you wont have to be anxious and suspicious about his behaviour...<P>You will have made rules between you that you both would live by...and they may include no contact with OW...no more neglect..more open communication...nothing hidden.. spend quality time together...spend specified time apart freedom to be...etc ... whatever you both agree to...all can be modified as you both grow in confidence and trust....<P>Have faith and trust your intuition...listen carefully to what it says and hear its truth...it will never let you down...you are worth loving...love yourself as others would love you....love yourself as you would love others....and you will also love the world...and all things will be added to you.. <P>cossie...<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....<P>

Well, H is definitely a candidate for items 1, 2 and 3.<P>He's CLEARLY afraid of intimacy. That's been there since day one. Yeah, he felt ignored/abandoned. He looked like his mom and his brother looked like their dad, so he was Mom's kid and brother was Dad's kid, and when Mom died when he was 12, he was no one's kid. And Dad did NOT try to take up the slack. They only started to get along at all when he married me (Dad thinks I'm a good influence) and really well since we got a house and he has a good job.<P>2) Fear of partner's mortality - Mom was 42 when she died. I am 44. 'nuff said?<P>3) Fear of his own mortality -- less of a factor, since H has always been somewhat self-destructive...less so since we have been together. But in his 20's, he believed he'd be dead by 30. As far as recapturing his "lost youth", that's not really a factor either. We have no kids, and other than holding down a job, he has no real responsibilities.<P>H is a fundamentally very lonely guy, I think, who tends to push people away. He gets along better with women than with men, because women are mom (kind, sweet, nurturing) and men are dad (judgmental, stern, angry).<P>OW clearly likes married guys, perhaps because they are "safe", but I know now that she "collects" them. Whether it's just for friendship or for more remains to be seen.<P>There's no "policy of joint agreement" regarding her, because he's made clear that he doesn't agree to no contact. That he has to deal with her through work (he works for her client) doesn't help. Yet even if he changed jobs, I don't think he'd cut contact entirely.<P>If he would come out and SAY "I get lonely when you're not here", then we could work from there. But he never acknowledges it, however irrational or unreasonable it is, but I deal with the consequences later on.

Dazed,<P>I think your issues in your posts are two-fold.<P>1. Your belief he had contact with preditory dragon lady.<P>2. Your issues with fulfilling his needs.<P>Based on past history, your fear he has called her is legitmate and you have experienced litte progress and great distress when you have attempted addressing this issue with H in the past.<P>However, this does not justify you acting "as if" he called her or using the whole alledged situation as evidence of the whole needs thing.<P>In fact, Dazed, it is disrespectful of you to judge your H's behavior like that. And although a confrontation my have been unpleasant, your H at least deserves to know what your heart is charging him with...even if he responds badly.<P>I know I'm not you and not in your relationship, but if I may have handled it this way. I see phone...think **!!##**, H has been on phone with her. I would say, H...did anybody call while I was out? Him "no". Me, "Oh...I see the phone is out of the cradle...but no messages?" "No" Me, "I'm going to be gone Wednesday evening...did you make any plans?" (Wait for answer) If still haven't got a good reason why phone was out of the cradle and you need to know, bite the bullet..."H, I am feeling a little insecure now...you usually don't answer the phone when I'm away and friend is not around, I need to know if you were talking to OW." If yes, thank him for being honest and then deal with situation. If no, thank him and say something like you know all your fears may not be rational, but they are real to you...and you appreciate his love and support. (Do not gag while you are saying this)<P>Dazed, you are in a no win situation if you believe or act on events that may not even be true and use the excuse that confronting the issue would result in a fight.<P>Now on the needs issue, I believe in doing everything we can to fill each other's needs, and although I think Harley's methods probibly show results in a short term crisis like and affair and are based on human nature, they put far too much responsibility without control on partners when you look at the long term view. Like doing a lifelong tap dance and even if you keep dancing, but get some of the steps wrong, your partner will go dance with someone else. And that may be true in some cases, but I don't think we can live under the pressure of a misstep equals disaster. Then our partner must be pretty shallow.<P>I believe in letting your partner honestly know the needs he/she can fill, but not relying on them for your own happiness or inner peace.<P>I believe in doing your best to fill your partners needs, but not assuming responsibility for their own happiness or inner peace. Otherwise you have responsibility without control and that just does not work.<P>We are all accountable for our own lives, even if we are not to blame for some of the events in them. <P>I am more than willing to put my H's needs above my own as long as I am not enabling him by taking responsibility for what he should be accountible for. If you give love freely, it should come back to you, but of course if you only give of yourself to see returns on your investment, then your giving is not authentic and it will breed resentment. OK..now I'm getting way to deep for a Monday morning.<P>Bottem line...Dazed, I think you need to ask the hard question and be ready for the answer. Do everything you can to deflate the conflict rather fuel it. Use I messages rather than you messages...although I realize your H may hear you messages anyway.<P>Also I think your H, like mine, takes the position he has no right to what he percieves would be controlling you. So when he says it is not my place to be bothered, he means he has no interest in controlling your actions. Of course he basically holds the same belief about his actions, so he does not take well to acting on your requests. On one hand it is nice to have freedom in your relationship. A controlling spouse would drive me nuts. However, taken to the extremes our H's seem to take this idea also inhibits true intimacy. Do you think that this could be true?<P>I hope you are feeling a little better today, Dazed.

Last week, my therapist asked me why I thought that this other guy's wife seemed to accept HER H's "unorthodox" friendship with this woman more readily than I do.<P>My answer:<P>1) I do not know for a fact that she does.<BR>2) If she does, it may be that he has never been secretive about it the way my H has been.<P>Her answer:<P>It's MY issues and MY insecurities and I have to deal with those.<P>FHL, your scenario for saying "I feel insecure" is fine, in a rational universe...but I do not live in a rational universe. H interprets "I" terminology as "You" terminology. Even presented as you describe, it will result in a fight. Guaranteed. Besides, how can he possibly come out ahead?<P>Either I trust him or I don't. Do I? I still don't know. And if I trust HIM, do I trust HER? Yes, it takes two to tango, but still...<P>Three weeks ago I gave him that 2-page letter that I posted here. Either it sunk in or it didn't. If it didn't there's nothing I can do. There's nothing more to be said. He knows how I feel and if he chooses to disrespect my feelings about his relationship with her, there's no way I can make him respect them.<P>Except that it's a major lovebuster.<P>Today he E-mailed me that he has to be in at 3:30 AM to do a system upgrade. Coming on the heels of yesterday, it's easy to wonder if that's true. Again, everything is speculative, and it could be nothing. He could have to go in and upgrade the system. He has to do such things off-hours, because he works in the financial industry and during-hours down time is not an option.<P>The bottom line is this, I'm afraid:<P>1) I've told him how I feel. I can't make him respect my feelings. He doesn't care how I feel about this. He will not agree to no contact outside of work. For whatever reason, this contact is important to him. Whether it's because he has few friends, or whatever, that's the way it is. He's NEVER been sensitive to my feelings. That's the way he is. He always has been like this, always will be. Take it or leave it. <P>2) Whether it's the way she behaves, the way he behaves, or my imagination, the fact remains that neither him nor her have really done anything to put my fears at rest. As long as there is contact, there will be fear. And I just have to deal with that fear. <P>3) I can only do so much. If he strays, I have to hope that at some point he will leave clues where I can find them (I won't snoop, it makes me too crazy) and I'll find out then. Meanwhile, I can't live like a prisoner my whole life because I'm afraid if I'm not perfect he'll go running to her. That's replaying the mom scenario.<P>Easier said than done.<P>I know he doesn't want to be seen as controlling, and neither do I. That's why I fight this every day of my life. The more I tell him I don't want him to have contact, the more he will rebel and seek it. And yet, if he has needs for me to be around all the time, I wish he'd verbalize them. Then we could at least DISCUSS them.<P>When I tell him I'm going to a movie, or with a friend, or whatever, I ASK: "I'd like to go to __________ on such-and-such a day. Do you mind if I go?" My therapist thinks I'm all wrong about this; that I'm asking him for PERMISSION. But what I'm trying to do is say "You come first, but I'd like to do this."<P>I guess I just don't want to be a fool. I don't want to live in denial of something that's there. I don't want to live like a doormat. Similarly, I don't want to create something where there isn't anything. Starting to go out a bit is a way of regaining control over my life; control that I relinquished to him when she first became an issue. Whatever happens, I have to do this.<P>If that's not enough, well, he'll just have to see if he can get it from her. I know in my head that he can't. People who know both of us say they don't know how I do it.<P>For now, I guess I have to just choose to trust.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Dazed and Confused (edited September 27, 1999).]

Maybe I didn't write well. I do understand your situation and well, it sticks. I'm not at all sure you can trust him or you should trust him.<P>However, I don't think it is fair of you to assume contact or assume that contact had anything to do with you leaving him for a few hours.<P>It depletes your own love bank...actually I hate that term...but it is you that is taking your units out...or stretching a bit your current take on his past behavior. <P>If you fight, you fight. I know that fighting has it's own downside, but you will simply not get further into recovery if you accuse, try and convict him when he doesn't even know he's been charged with a crime.<P>That's all...I'm worried how it eats at you if your fears about this phone thing or leaving him alone are unfounded.<P>