During her divorce proceedings against me my W's attorney referenced, in the hearing that eventually led to HER being removed from marital residence, incriminating e-mails and voice mails to my wife that "threatened her". When my attorney asked me about them I said that I had in fact left her voice mails when I was angry, no VERY ANGRY, but I never threatened her or the boys safety and the e-mails were the only effective way for me to communicate with her regarding my unhappiness with her choice to divorce / separate. I was a "mess" and admitted it but there were never any statements that indicated I was "unstable". I told my attorney "tell her and her attorney that I would LOVE for them to be admitted as evidence that I was NORMAL!, that I wanted my family and that she was the one threatening me with removal from home, not the other way around"...Funny thing was we never did hear about them again! And I just got worked up over that!!

Anyway Hope....Ask your attorney what would happen if you locked her out? Or if you took the kids elsewhere UNTIL she left...You have options....you must use them!! They may not be the best for you, the children or her but you must get away from the madness....

And yes sir, there is sometimes that orgasmic pleasure you receive when they don't like how their lives become because of THEIR CHOICES!!!

Bottom line...tell her...work on marriage or GET OUT!!

I found a book in her purse called "He's Just Not Into You" and she had tabbed a couple of pages but I was unable to read them.

She never finished reading "Rebuilding: When Your Relationship Ends" as she only got through about 50 pages.

Boy if she only put this kind of effort into our R we might have a chance at recovery <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This was something I pulled off an ABC news article where the book had been made popular on Sex in the City. Funny how the comment says the women say they will save their energy for the good guy.....sounds like your WW is expounding her energy in the wrong places.

Sounds like she is just skimming through the books. I know when I started reading about saving my marriage I devoured them and re-reading. Who knows what she got out of them.

Hope, I did a quick catch up on your thread and have a couple of observations. Maybe I missed something, but the fact that she is carrying that book in her purse means something. Remember how we talked about OM maybe cooling things when he realizes she is going to give everything up for HIM? CLING, CLING. I bet he's sending the "let's take this slowly" signals.

The part about "you probably hate me and I don't blame you" rings a bell with me. My WEX said similar things and I believe he said these things when he regretted what he was doing but didn't know how to undo it and get himself out of the sitch. Maybe didn't even know if he wanted to. I think it's a sign.

The post where she left her office # so you could check up on her? Maybe she wants you to trust her.

I don't know Hope, like I said, I did a quick read on your thread, but I believe the little lady is scared to go. I think OM is backing off and now she doesn't know which way to go. If she wanted to leave so bad, she would be gone. Have you sat her down recently and asked her one final time if there is anything you could do to start over with her? Is she in IC?

Hi Shattered, welcome back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This would not suprise me since OM is a player and would not be interested in dealing with the baggage my WW will bring to the R (i.e. my kids and her family that hates him). He is with her for one thing and one thing only...I am so sure of that. Right now he is having time of his life as he get some action once in a while and still is able to live is seperate life.


I'm sure she has much conflict in her mind right now and I really believe being without the kids for a week at a time will devestate her as it will me.


Maybe, but how can I trust her after what has happened? She needs to earn my trust and that can only occur if she is completely transparent with me at some point.


Shattered, she has done EVERYTHING to leave except leave. She has sent her belongings to her parents house, she has written up a LSA, she has been pre approved for a mortgage, she has changed her job so she can accomodate the kids when it her week with them, she is reading papers from her work EAP on how to tell the kids, etc.

She is at the point where she can't turn back now even if she wanted to. Her pride won't let her and to be honest I don't want her the way she is now. I don't want a WW in my house, I want my W back. I have finally gotten to a point where I'm ready to move on and her actions take me back a few steps. I don't want to hurt anymore and she doesn't understnad that. She just thinks she can live a seperate life until she ready to leave and can't understand why I'm not accepting that. As all of us BS know, it's because we love our S and it hurts us tremendously to live like that. They can't see it.

I like your idea about sitting down one last time to see if she REALLY wants to go through with this, although I know it will be futile at this point.

I was just thinking about you this morning and wondering how things were.


This is exactly where I am too. WH makes some small hints of regret but is not taking ANY major step to recover. Its like he can't concieve a way to work through this. I believe he would live in this limbo world for years. Maybe he has been living in it for years and I was too blind to see he wasn't commited to M. When reality hits I think we BS's will be better prepared, we will heal quicker and move on.

NEW DEVELOPMENT...NEED ADVICE PLEASE!

Well two nights ago I did what Shattered suggested and asked WW if she was certain that she wanted this seperation and still wanted to leave. She said "yes, why should I stay?" and I told her that if that is what she truly wants she should speed up the process so I can start my personal recovery. She even asked for my lawyers name and address so she could have her lawyer send him the LSA.

Just a few minutes ago I get a call from my dad who told me he and my mom went to vist my WW this morning to see how the kids were and to talk to her. They told my WW that they cared for her which is opposite to what my W thinks. Then my dad tells me that my WW doesn't want to seperate and that the decision is up to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I don't know if my dad is stretching the truth so I try to make one last effort to salvage the marraige or what. I am so confused right now. I don't trust what she is saying right now.

My dad even started saying that I should be sure this is what I want and that things could be forgiven. I said "are you kidding me?". It like the blame for her leaving is shifting on to my shoulder now. I don't believe this is genuine at all and is probably her way to ease out of this and make herself look good.

She has gone through all the trouble of preparing to seperate and now she says this. She has given me absolutely NO indication, NONE that she wants to say and now she tells this to my parents!

What do I do now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Relax.

Watch her actions. They are a much better indication of her thoughts than her words.

We all know that WS's tend to lie alot. Do you think that she'd make an exemption to this for your folks? I very much doubt that. Maybe this is her way to "spin" the sitch to your folks.

Nothings changed yet at this point. She's just spewing some fog at your folks. Like you already figured out "is probably her way to ease out of this and make herself look good".

Stay Strong!

Hard to know what it means. Either it's right at face value, or not. But if there's a chance it's right, you probably know what you are called to do.

Can I suggest you talk to her about it? Gently, kindly. Briefly. Say all you ever really wanted was her heart, and that you are ready to give her all your heart. And ask her if she will consider turning the ship around.

It could take a dozen short conversations (short so as to maximize the chance you both stay positive, gentle, and in control). But maybe it could still work out? I see a glimmer.. I've always seen a glimmer in your posts.. Good luck and God Bless.

DO like I always do and pull all the parties in the room and say here is what I hear and tell me where we stand on all this?

That way everyone hears and not one can wiggle their way out.

Hi Hope!

Okay, I want you to take a few deep calming breaths, and while you breathe allow me to tell you what it's like in the real world of divorce.

Currently, my STBDH's has watched his children for five months solid--his exW maybe takes them once a week or once every other week and we have them every single other day. We pay for their groceries, clothes, and day-to-day needs--she takes them out and buys them Playstation. Now we count it as a blessing! Nonetheless, his exW is going to college...does not work...and tells everyone in his family who will listen that (pity music please) "...SHE takes care of the kids all the time by herself and has to try to go to school while he's not helping her at all..." (end pity music). Sadly, many members of his family believe her and never bother to check it out with him. And WHY does she do this even though it is blatantly not true (BLATANTLY)??

Because it takes the focus off the fact that she has a man living in her house...that she has parties going on there night and day...that she drinks to drunkenness every day and smokes pot too. Yep, the focus is off HER bad behavior while everyone runs over to STBDH and berates him for not helping care for the kids. And by the time he talks to them and sort of "proves" that she was lying...well then she diverts from her bad behavior with something else.

My point here is that WS's who do not choose to repent will use every trick in the book to justify their behavior and reflect the "blame" to someone else. Rather than looking at their own actions and admitting they are wrong and then PUTTING THINGS RIGHT--they will do and say almost anything to justify and reflect. This is to be expected, Hope.

SOOOOooooo...having said all that, my suggestion to you would be to continue to do what you KNOW is right. Behave in an absolutely upright way. Speak the truth. Behave honestly and kindly, but do not allow lies to just go by unchallenged. In this specific instance, I'm sure you could give your dad a thousand examples of ways that you have reached out to your wife and asked her to reconsider--and ways that she has continued on in her actions to end the marriage and break up the family. The thing is, though, at this point your dad thinks it might possibly be you and is all upset about that. Rather than throw a bunch of facts at him that just "counter" all her facts, I suggest that you tell him, "Dad, I bet that really upset you and hurt you to think that *I* would be the one who is ending this marriage. If it were me, I would feel (insert how you'd feel here). I want to reassure you that with all my heart I want my marriage reconciled, but I want to reconcile it right. I am not willing to accept the OM in our marriage. I want there to be some admission of wrongdoing on BOTH of our parts, not just me. I want to heal her heart from the times I neglected her, but I want her to heal my heart too for the betrayal. And that's the issue. I am willing to work on my part, and she refuses to admit her part and therefore work on her part. I know there are two sides to every story, but in my heart I can say with a completely clear conscience that I have done everything in my power to reconcile our marriage the RIGHT way."

Now (((Hope)) hugs and courage to you!



FNCJ

(((HTW)))
I don't have much advice because again...I'm right there with ya! (Check my thread)

I agree that her actions will tell you more than her words. I think she (like my WH) feel guilt and shame when talking to parents. And do what they can to relieve that. I'll be watching your thread...cause I need the same advice.

Precisely my point. Why?? Because there is that nagging thought in the back of her mind that she keeps pushing away: Are you really sure you want to do this?

I would call her on the carpet and ask her in a loving gentle way. She may have meant that you made the decision to split when you "exposed" her to all the family. You may want to have some more talks about what life would be like if she stayed. Put yourself in her shoes. She thinks you are going to hold this over her head FOREVER. She feels like she is wearing a scarlet letter. She is angry at you because she is angry with herself. She hates herself for what she has done, but she can't reverse it. Everytime she thinks about it she says, DANG, if Hope hadn't neglected me this never would have happened. DANG, I tried to tell Hope this and that and he never listened. DANG, IT'S ALL HIS FAULT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />In the end, she has to take responsibility for her actions. That is a huge serving of humble pie to swallow and it may take a while. Remember, "He's Just Not That Into You" is NOT referring to you. You've still got game Hope.

I would continue to speak the truth that's in your heart in a kind, gentle, and loving manner. But also let her know that you will be JUST FINE without her. This is where tough love comes in. You've got to put up a good facade that you are going to be okay without her. A little reverse psychology. You could maybe start by saying things like, I don't want you to worry about me. I'll be fine. If our marriage wasn't meant to be, it's not the end of the world. I will live to love again. You go - I wish you all the best. Don't worry about me, I'll date and someday I would like to remarry. . . . . I will come out of this sitch a better person. Who knows, maybe one day I'll even thank you for giving me this opportunity to grow.

You let her know you want her to stay not because you want to control her and not because you want things to fall back into the same old sloppy patterns. You want her to stay because you remember what drew you two together in the first place and because you foresee a future together that neither of you could have imagined before. You let her know that you are there if she wants to talk. She has a breakdown coming in her future.

Hope, What was your marriage like pre-affair? How long do you think she was really unhappy? And, do you think she was unhappy or do you think she just unintentionally fell under the spell of the OM and THEN she became unhappy at home?

What does your gut tell you? Is your gut telling you that this is all crazy and she will regret it? Or is it telling you that this was a long time coming and there's probably no turning back?

Hope, one more thing. Last summer my WEX was angry and mean like your WW. In hindsite, I was angry and mean with him. Now that time has gone by, I can look back and analyze. A lot of his meanness and anger was his fear. It was how he protected himself from me. Now that I don't speak angrily to him, the line of communication stays open. Granted, we are still a far cry from total honesty and good communication but we have made progress. I feel little by little he is learning to trust me. Only when he trusts me can he reveal himself to me. It's odd, yes, he should be showing me he can be trusted, but he is the one with the big bad secret. He is vulnerable too. And little by little I am learning how to speak to him in the "I feel" tense and how to tell him how I feel without throwing in the judgements. (That's the hardest one of all!) I want to get to the point where he can talk to me about his affair and what is going on in his mind. He needs to feel safe with me before we can do that. And quite honestly, we never had total honesty in our relationship before. If I was ever attracted to another man, I never would have said anything to him. This is all new ground for us and we are learning.

Ask her what she is afraid of. Ask her what her worst fear is if she stayed in the marriage.

Hope this helps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What the heck, I'm on a roll - one more post.

I hope you understand I'n not trying to threadjack. I'm trying to offer what my experience has been in a similiar situation. There is also the Mars vs. Venus thing and sometimes it helps to have the opposite sex's POV.

Take care Hope. And remember what I wrote above, you really will be okay with or without your wife. Believe in yourself.
S.

Not much time to post but I just wanted to say that those of you who said watch her actions were right. She is still packing and still intends to leave. She basically told my parents what the wanted to hear so she wouldn't feel uncomfortable. I'm not even upset or mad since I was sure she would not change her mind that easily.

More later, but right now I'm off to buy a coffee for my lovely WW.

Shattered I will have to re-read your posts since I don't have time right now, but there certianly is much info there.

Thanks everyone!

HTW,

You get the husband/father/friend/plan a/MB'r of the year award. No [censored]. I don't know anyone else that could have done everything you have.

I still read about your life and I have to say that you make me smile just knowing that there are good people out there doing the right thing in the face of complete adversity.

It's men like you that give a dignifying name to our gender.

Still wishing you the best,
Plank.

Plank, I wholeheartedly agree. I thought the same thing when he said he was running out to get her coffee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> That's Hope for ya! You are building A LOT of character here Hope. She has a lot to lose.

Here's a great song from Boz Scaggs:

I call 'ya . . .
You ain't in
What's this cold reaction
Where've you been
Ooh, baby, let it on the line
This is last call, you say that's all
You can take it fine

I'm sorry but . . .
It don't make sense
You're pullin just right out on first offense
Ooh, baby, play it smart
For you go south with your big mouth
Let it take your heart . . .

Danger there's a breakdown dead ahead
Maybe you're in way above your head
I may burn, might upset you
But you know I'd never let you down

Ooh, baby,
I told ya no more lyin
No more tears a fallin
Stop your cryin
Ooh, baby, I’m your fan
Before you go back to your sidetrack
Baby understand . . .

Danger there's a breakdown dead ahead
Just maybe you're in way above your head
I may burn, might upset you
But you know I'd never let you down
No, no, no
No, no, no
No, no, no, no, no, no . . .

Danger there's a breakdown dead ahead
Then just maybe you're in way above your head
I may burn, might upset you
But you know I'd never let you down, down, down, down
No, no, no