I see you have been posting a bit in the past few days <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That makes me happy.

I hope things are getting better for you. You are a very strong woman you know - and you will just come out EVEN stronger from this - SUPER WOMAN.

(((HUGS)))

Dorry,

I would first like to thank you for your persistence. Your little messages to me often make me smile. It is very comforting to know that someone out there notices and gives a darn.

I don't know why I have been such a recluse lately. I just have SO MUCH running through my mind. It feels like a huge ball of issues and I don't even know where to begin to unravel it.

Our MC was talking today about the grief process. She said that at some point, you make the decision whether to live or whether to die.

A couple of weeks ago, things got so out of control - that day I almost checked myself into the hospital. It felt like I really was going to die if I didn't take some sort of deliberate action to stop it. I have to be here for my children - they need me. So I made the decision to live.

Things have been somewhat better between Patriot and I since that day. It is a little easier for me to be more positive about the future. In fact, I told him the other day that I no longer believe it is a matter of whether or not we will make it. It is a matter of how WELL we will make it - the choice is ours.

But there are so many giant ELEPHANTS in this room, making it a little crowded and putting distance between us. How do you eat an elephant??? Well, one bite at a time, so they say. But, heck, I don't even know where to begin chewing.
I also fear that elephant probably doesn't taste so great.

My Elephants (I won't speak for Patriot):

Discussing the details of Patriots A

Neither of us is particularly excited about doing this. I actually tried a couple of weeks ago. I began with two very, very broad questions. I got "I don't knows" to both, so before I let me emotions get the best of me, I let it go. I calmly told him this felt non-productive and I didn't wish to continue at that time. It isn't easy for me either, and I have no desire to "pull teeth".

OW's pregnancy

Some here have advised me to put this on the back burner (easier said than done), but her supposed due date is looming. Others here have advised us to do nothing unless we are contacted by her. I don't know about that. I just have to know if it is Patriot's or not. I am so torn about this. As you know, I am adopted...and playing a role in deceiving a child of their biological history is something that seriously conflicts with everything I believe in.

Also, I am fairly sure that even if it is his, we will not be contacted. She and her husband have chosen (apparently) to reconcile and I would guess that he wouldn't want Patriot to have anything to do with the child. I don't think I could just simply go on, knowing that somewhere out there is a child of my husband's. Yet, I don't necessarily want to take any action, either. I don't know OW, and she doesn't know me. I am disgusted that she is a part of my history, too. I have no desire to talk to her or be faced with any situation involving her. I don't know if I could!
So, for now...I do my own "investigating". I just need to know WHEN the child is born and depending on when that is, I will know.

Interestingly enough, through my investigations I have come into contact with another man she was having a long-term A with! We have spoken on the phone and via e-mail. He was quite surprised to learn of her A with Patriot. He, of course, thought he was the only one having an A with her. As it turns out, she was "with" him a mere week after the last time Patriot was. Talk about your plots thickening! So who the heck knows whose baby this is!!! As I said, depending on the date of delivery I may have some answers. Hopefully, it will be after the time that either of her A's occurred. Hopefully, this child will appear ethnic. OWH is Iranian and Patriot and OM#2 are both Caucasion. What a mess!

I got a little shaken yesterday. At my nephew's birthday party, one of the women commented that Patriot and I are the cutest couple. I truly didn't know how to respond. I was alarmed because in my mind I was thinking..."Really??? So I suppose it would shock you if I told you that, while we look like newlyweds on the exterior, I walk around every day with the fear that some other woman is carrying my husband's child?" Of course I did not say that, but I couldn't bring myself to say "Thank you".

Patriot's conflict avoidance

He is working so hard on this. I see it, and I am very proud of him for some of the things that he has faced, but I must admit...it absolutely TERRIFIES ME! I have GOT to have complete and utter honesty and openness from him, yet still be allowed to have feelings about what he tells me and to express them. I don't freak out too much anymore, but I need to be able to say "That hurts my feelings".

I kind of felt a little ganged up on in MC today regarding an issue over a decision regarding Patriot's career. I am so confused about this. In very simple terms, Patriot has some upcoming training to do. He can either opt to take this via some kind of correspondence course from home, or he can do the in-depth version, which would require him to be gone for about five months. He would, however, get better training from the in-depth version, which would be better for his career.

When he saw that I was not comfortable with it, he said he would opt for the correspondence course. But, I must admit that it really hurt my feelings that he would even consider it. I think he perceives it as doing something for us - for our future. I perceive it as his putting his career before our marriage. Why would he willingly choose to be away from me for five months? If I was okay with it, he said that is the route he would like to take. The issue to me isn't really whether or not he chooses it. It's the fact that he would even consider it an option.

The MC said: You can't put all your eggs in one basket (the marriage). He should be free to further his career and pursue his individual goals. She suggested that I find some individual goals of my own. It's not that I don't have any, mind you...but right now Recovery is my main goal.

My thoughts: It feels like the LB, Independent Behavior (or we can call it Independent Thinking, since he hasn't actually acted on it yet). It feels as though he is more concerned with his career than our marriage. I hardly see it as doing something for "us". How could spending five months apart be doing something for "us"??? I told him that I was hurt. I also told him that I am willing to concede that perhaps I have misunderstood his feelings. I told him I am willing to set it down and not make a judgement concerning how he feels until he can help me understand that he really does feel that our marriage is the most important thing to him, which is what he says.

I believe that if we can tackle this issue and understand each other on it, the skills we learn in doing so will be invaluable in understanding each other in the future because there have been many issues similar to this one.

The upcoming trip to Chicago

I SO do not want to go!!!!!! As I have mentioned before, I am somewhat obligated to my family and my children on this one. But, I am quite dreading it. I do not want to go to that city - the one where a business trip for Patriot and OW set the stage for the A. Why couldn't it be ANY other city?

So there are my big elephants. This is the first time I have actually sorted out these thoughts outside of my head. I still don't know where to begin taking a bite. I still fear the bitter taste of elephant.

On a good note, Patriot said that he is glad that we are now reaching around the elephants to touch each other now and again, and that is definite progress.

I wish these darned elephants would just stampede off somewhere else. It would really be nice to have nothing standing between Patriot and I.

You can be as big a recluse as you want to be - but just be forwarned - when you turn on that messenger again - I will start buggin ya again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> you can't let me get to know you guys and then expect me not to care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You are right - those are some pretty big elephants and as I remember, elephants don't taste too good and are probably hard to swallow too . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am not sure how to tackle them - but let me see if I can say how I would try and tackle them. BUT - this is only from my perspective and my relationship with Sprint...so feel free to toss em out the window <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I wouldn't be offended in the least.



Have you sat down and made of list of details that you HAVE to have and ones that you would like to have, but know they would just hurt you? I did that with Sprint. Surprisingly my HAVE to have list was way smaller than I thought it would be. Do you still get bombarded with thoughts of the details?

I know with Sprint I asked for the major things - the timeline, condoms, etc...and the little things haunted me for a bit - not knowing. About a weeks after I came back, I accidently came across all the MSN logs from the time I was gone - he hadn't meant to keep them, but didn't know where on his Mac they were kept. I started reading. Got from June 2 (the day he asked me for the sep) to June 8...I stopped on June 8 - reading June 2 to June 8 KILLED me. And I know he went to see her on June 18 and spent the whole weekend with her...and I had read some love e-cards on June 15th from him to her saying he loved her like no other, blah blah blah.

I desperately wanted to finish reading June 8 to June 21...the last time they talked. But I realized it wouldn't give us ANY progress I know what they talked about - I know he manipulated the situation - I did it too when i was in my A. The details would just hurt me, and not actually help us progress in the here and now.

Are there details you need from Pat, that may hurt, but are needed, or is it just a morbid curiosity on knowing exactly what was talked about?

I know when Sprint asked me for specific conversations, times, etc - I couldn't remember them - I remember the timeline, the big events, the feelings...not the details...and same goes for him - he couldn't tell me what they talked about in MSN...but he also knew that what was in those logs hurt me. He told me finish reading them, but that I would be doing exactly what he did during our 7 months previous - obsessing. ANd I realized he was right - he was here right now, loving me, wanting a future with me, so I started obsessing about us and our future <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



This was my BIGGEST fear, as Sprint and OW didn't use condoms...he trusted she was on the pill. Luckily she is a 40 year old single mom who REALLY doesn't want anymore kids and I have been able to brush that fear aside - but it still hits me.

I couldn't IMAGINE what you are going through wondering. I know Sprint has a son from a previous relationship he had left behind due to her being a teenage mom, and her parents pushing him out - instead of fighting, he walked. His son will be 10. he has no interest in this child's life, and the mother has never contacted him. Sprints parents however help raise this child...and so we know all about him

It's always bothered me, as I felt a child's biological parents should have some role in a child's life as long as the child isn't in danger - so I relate to how you are feeling in regards to being a part of the OW child if it's Pat's.

But there is only a 1/3 chance - and you did mention that if her due date is correct, then it would have been conceived a little after her and Pat were together. Have faith in that. Her H is sticking around to help raise the child - the child will be raised in a family and hopefully a good environment. If it ever turned out to be Pat's worry about it then - right now worry about you and Pat and your future. I know, I know - easier said than done...but I agree with what someone said - put it on the back burner.



Well this is a toughy for a WS. I did the same thing. we feel so much to blame for the condition of the BS that we tip toe around for fear we may hurt them again. We often feel we have lost our right to do what we need to do as we want to make it up to the BS. Maybe this is what Pat is doing?

I doubt he is more concerned with his career then your marriage, but men often place the value of bringing home the bacon as part of being a man in the family. They want to bring home the stability and be the man in the family. Yes he may have wanted to do the indepth training and probably was excite about it - but look at the positive - when he saw you were upset - he opted to take the correspondence instead. Yes it wasn't his first choice - but he did consider you. I know it's hard to see that way but it's something I have had to learn the hard way...

Men don't think like us, men don't talk like us, and I have had to start learning Sprint's "language" so to speak. He says and does things that confuse me or seem to not consider me, but when I really listen to him, I realize he is considering me, even if it's after his first though or words. he is learning mine too. Pat could be like that too - learning yours...and you have to learn his. I know it's been the main communication block between Sprint and I. Expecting to eachother to think like ourselves, and to talk the way eachother wants us to talk...instead of realizing we think and talk differently and to learn to understand eachother.



I fear I will have the same dread when and if we ever have to travel to the city where Sprint went to spend the weekend with her...alot of our family lives there. It's not in the same city where mine took place, but maybe chatting with Sprint will help? He has had to go back to the city where mine took place now 4 times..and we go again next weekend...and OM doesn't live to far from my Mom's where we stay. I know one trip tormented him horribly...but I know he doesn't seem to react since then. I don't know. I know he has been doing what I do - focus on us now and the future, and when thoughts start to creep in, to refocus the thoughts on the positives and the here and now.

My heart breaks for you Froz - i wish I had a magic pill to make it all go away for you. I always think of you and Pat and wonder how you guys are doing. You know that Sprint and I are always here when and if you ever need to talk again.

(((((((HUGS))))))))))))

I will consider myself forewarned. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />




No, I haven't. I wouldn't even know where to start. How in the world can I get 1 1/2 years worth of details? I want to know everything. I wish he would just sit down and tell it to my like a whole story...from the beginning. I realize that he can't possibly remember every minute detail, but I want him to be forthcoming...I don't want to feel like an FBI interrogator (which Patriot has given me a job recommendation for, btw).

I will say this...for as painful as these things are to hear, in the past when I have been given a detail, I hurt or grieve about it for a bit, then get angry, and then I move past it. I guess I want to move past it, but feel I can't when there are still so many secrets between us. It also feels as though Patriot cannot truly face what he has done until he faces ME with it.

It could also be an exercise for both of us - for him in facing confrontation with me, for me in learning how to make him feel safer in facing confrontation with me...maybe not, it's just a thought. Maybe it will be horrible for both of us and a major setback...I don't know. I wish we would have just done this earlier on - like, say, in the beginning when I was rehearsing for my FBI Interrogator position. I wish we wouldn't have take that first crappy MC's advice to delete all the e-mails between the two of them. Then I could have just read it for myself. I guess I can wish all I want, but that doesn't change the situation we are faced with now.


Yeah, it sucks. It's humiliating and embarrassing. The closer it gets, the more anxious I feel about it. I am just praying that this child has an olive complexion. I am also hoping my investigative skills don't fail me now, and that I will have some way of finding this information out.



Have faith in HER word...the woman who lies to everyone about EVERYTHING???? Not a chance! It is very possible that she and her H are fudging on the due date for appearances. There are people at her workplace who know about her A with Patriot. They know when he quit, so she may just be saying that so they will think the baby is her H's.

I have put it on the back burner until now. But, it is getting closer and the pot is beginning to boil. I'm just praying (and investigating).

With regards to Patriot's conflict avoidance:



Yes, I would wager he feels that way a lot. But it's more than that. This is a subject that has been an issue for him for most of his life. It is also a very big part of his "why" for the A. That is why it terrifies me so much.



Yes, I know. We are trying to learn each other's language, too. That is why I made the choice to not draw conclusions about how he felt. I am assuming it is simply a communication block/misunderstanding on my part. My fear is that because it was an option for him, maybe he doesn't feel the same way for me that I do for him. I feared that in the past because I sensed his hesitation to get married. I worried that he didn't love me as much. Then, come to find out he'd been having an A. Seemed like proof that he didn't. I'm afraid this is proof, too. Just my fears, but I am willing to be objective and wait until we understand each other better rather than make that assumption.

Thanks for all your support Dorry, and say hi to my friend Sprint. I'm glad the two of you are doing well.

Froz,

I hope you don't mind if I jump in here with something I hope will help clear things up a bit.

First, there are no guarantee's. If it is possible that this child is Pat's you ALL need to know and I'll tell you why. You need to know whether or not hubby is going to raise the child as his own, even if he signs the BC.

Here is why,

My brother had a ONS 11 years ago with a woman, stupid yes but here is why it is important to know. The woman got pregant and even though she knew where my brother lived, knew his name and in fact was friends with some of his friends outside his circle, she never told him.

Did I mention she was married? He didn't know that but it doesn't make it any better.

Anyway, woman is pregnant and plays along it is Hubby's kid, brother moves 4 states away shortly before kid is born and thats the end of the story right?

Nope, about 3 years ago she and her husband divorced cause he caught her cheating..surprise, surprise!

So he has DNA tests done on their 4 children and 2 aren't his.

Right or wrong (wrong in my eyes) he refuses to see the other 2 and doesn't have to pay child support for them so she starts going down the list of possible daddies, lo and behold my brother gets a letter in the mail from an atty. and he has to go and get a dna test done.

THe kid is his, a daughter, 10yo he knew nothing about and is now $30,000 in arrears with CS. He is paying but everytime he goes down to finally meet her guess what? Nobody home, and this is a 14 hour drive one-way.

Anyway, I would find out the truth now rather than later, the OW is a cheater and who knows how long hubby will put up with it.

It is better to sign over rights today or go for visitation and pay support than to find out 10 years from now when hubby kicks her to the curb.

You do not want to be in my brothers sitch right now, it sucks for the kid, it sucks for my brother.

Tough choices to be sure but the alternative is no better.

Froz, sometimes as bad as a sitch seems when you know your options it can make it easier come to a decision

I'm rooting for you both...peace

RBMan,

I appreciate your input and your sharing your brother's experiences. It is definitely something to factor into any decision made.

I am so sorry for your brother's situation. That hardly seems fair.

My biggest worry right now is how I will get the information. Every little bit of info I currently have I have gotten through my "recon missions". We do not have any sort of ties or contact with these people.

Right now, the date of birth is all I can focus on, with regards to this situation. That is the information I need to know, and making any decision before having that information could possibly be moot.

You raise some very good points, and ones I had not thought of.

Thanks for your input.

I will keep you in my prayers my friend Froz <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As I said before you are SUPER WOMAN (I can send you a purty red cape and a shirt with an S on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

Ouch! Believe it or not that was a trigger of sorts.

Please, no cape. I am no superwowan. I am just a nice girl who loves her husband, that's all.

Hi Froz, just wanted you to know you are never far from my thoughts and prayers.

Oh sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Didn't mean to trigger you.

You are a VERY nice girl and I can tell how much you love your husband. ((HUGS))

Not a problem, Dorry. I'm over it already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, FF and Dorry for your thoughts and prayers.

We're going to be fine, I think.

me too

((HUGS))))))

You too, what? You're over it already?
You can't just pipe in here in the middle of a conversation and expect everyone here to know what you are talking about.

Aren't you the one who is always running around here causing trouble and instigating debates, always arguing with everyone?

We'll have none of that on my thread. This IS my thread, you know...it even has my name on it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think he meant it in reference to

"We're going to be fine, I think."

And he said - me too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's how I interpreted his reply

And I can hear the teasing in your voice too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> teehee

Who is teasing???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He IS always running around here causing trouble!

Haven't you seen him? Starting 12-page fights and such?
I will have none of that here...not on this nice, quiet, love, peace, and hugs thread.

He can start his own argumentative thread.

LOL you tell him Froz!!

GAW!

Hello Frozen,

It’s been a while since I’ve been on MB. So how are you doing?
I've always wonder about you, especially since our situations were so very similar. Unfortunately too similar. Something that has always loomed in the back of my mind about my H’s A was whether or not OW got pregnant. Although they both say they used protection, her reasoning was b/c she didn’t want to get pregnant, therefore I have to assume that she was not on any type of BC, it is very possible that she could have conceived a child. It makes you wonder if she was trying to get pregnant, why would you have an A and not be using BC? Furthermore she already had 2 children and supposedly she was in a bad M (of 7 years) which was I guess her excuse for the A. I don’t know, is it me? But if you are M and not using BC, doesn’t that mean that you want to have children <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />? Of course I realize there are maybe medical reasons why someone wouldn’t use BC, but with there being so many different kinds out there I think I would have found something, or get my tubes tied.

You might have said this in your post somewhere, but how did you find out that she was pregnant? I wonder after reading your story if I should check into this also.

As for an update on my situation, my baby is due August 28th (3rd child, Husband’s first (hopefully)). He is deployed and will be home the beginning of November. In March, H did a 180 degree turn around concerning our M. Here are some of the things that he wrote the day his eyes opened :

[color:"blue"] ... I promise you that if I get an email from anyone else I will tell you about it. … I will not keep anything from you no matter how small or how big. That is because I think of us as one. I’m sorry for not thinking and acting that way in the past. I want you to know wife, that the thought of not having you in my life is frightening to me. I don’t ever want to lose you baby. I don’t plan on taking you for granted anymore …
…I destroyed the good thing about my life and that is your love. I wish I could close my eyes and then open them and find out this was all a dream, and that I never lied to you, or did anything to ever hurt you. I would go back to the moment when I first saw that woman and then run to the phone and call you and tell you that you are the best thing that has ever happened to me and I am never going to do anything to mess this up. You have been the sweetest thing in my entire life. I can honestly say, that no one has ever loved me or showed me love the way you have. No one has ever sacrificed as much for me as you have…
[/color]

My H has lived up to everything he said and then some. Hooray! We are making tremendous progress. This may seem weird and certainly was to my surprise, but since May our main source of communication is via email and I never would have thought that we could have a stronger M through his deployment. At best I my hope was that we could maintain where we were and pick back up when he got home. I was wrong.

Through email I have his undivided attention, I can go on for pages w/o interruptions and we both have time to reflect on what the other wrote about. We are slowly working through MB material but our main tool for reconciling is the Bible and prayer together. I still suffer from triggers from time to time, however the more my H deposits in my Love Bank, the less triggers I have. Fortunately, he makes it a point to make deposits every single day and that is what counts to me. Words are lovely and all but I’m looking at his actions. Enough about me, I’m looking forward to reading your response to the above questions regarding OW pregnancy.