huh?

lol let me elaborate - what do you mean discuss remorse - my remorse?

Which ever. Around the Wonk household, remorse (or lack thereof) has become a catch-all word for my not doing what I am "expected" to do.

For me, I do not have any particular way that I "need" to see remorse from Mrs. Wonk. She's trying, in her own way, to make things better. Does she head off the track sometimes? Sure. Do I think she's not remorseful? No. So, why do I feel like I have this ax over my head? It's like I want to tell Mrs. Wonk to relax. Remorse doesn't necessarily have to be shown in only one way. Right?

It doesn't need to be shown in one way - but us women like things shown a certain way - and it's hard for us to let go of that.

I showed remorse all the time, said I was sorry all the time, did things I thought I would never do in order to "make it up to him" - in the end - I still almost lost.

Sprint has said he is sorry for the way he treated me pre-myA, as he now realizes how not listening to my cries for help and being very degrading helped get me more into my depression which eventually got me into the frame of mind where I could justify having an affair.

He says he is more sorry for that time, then he is for his A. In a heated convo, I finally heard the words, MY JUSTIFICATIONS FOR MY A WERE WRONG! that was what I was waiting to hear. I knew he was sorry - I mean you don't come back without being sorry....but I wanted to hear he was wrong...and he was saying it in so many ways - I just wanted to hear the words I WAS WRONG! But I realized I had to LB and bring up bad memories for him to get that - was the payoff worth it? NO.

So I have yet to hear an I'm sorry for leaving you and having an affair. I have heard in a heated moment, I am sorry I hurt you...but not an I'm sorry for the affair and for leaving. and the woman in me DESPERATLY wants to hear it. But...through pateince and really listening, I am learning that he tells me he is sorry in SO many other ways. So I am letting go of the dream of hearing it the way I feel I need it to be heard.

One thing that makes things ALOT easier for me though - is Sprint and I communicate now, and not a day goes by where he doesn't say he loves me, or he is glad I am here working on things. So when I have bad times, I can refocus on the now. If he wasn't saying or doing those things, I would have nothing to refocus on and I think I would be stuck in the past - WHAT HE DID TO ME. Now I can focus on WHAT HE IS DOING NOW. And I think he does the same thing - he kinda mentioned it the other day - he focuses on now and remembers that THAT WAS THEN. We make sure to always communicate and both try very hard not to make judgements on eachother like we use to make.

Have you sat down and told her how sorry you are for having your affair and hurting her deeply? that you know it was wrong and was the wrong way to deal with her Affair? And have you done this WITHOUT comparing or bringing up her affair? If you have - then she is still dealing with anger too - just like you are. But if you haven't - try it.

I have said this. I have said this on many occasions. I have said during many conversations of our affairs that it was not the right thing to do and that I am sorry.

It is wearing me out, truly. Everything I do is supposed to have remorse somewhere in it. I go to the store. If I don't call and say that I will be taking a minute or two longer because I'm stopping at the ATM, I am not showing remorse for what I have done.

Let me put it this way, and I don't mean to be insensitive to Mrs. Wonk, so if it seems that way I am sorry ahead of time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Could this be the case - that a lot of what Mrs. Wonk is saying is because of fear - that remorse, to her, is just a way of having her fears calmed? It just seems to me that it is always so confrontational because I did not do what she expected me to do - that if I was truly remorseful I would have called and told her I was going to the ATM. It feels like a demand to me. It's an expactation rather than a request.

Dorry, I am getting tired.

Here's the thing - when I read what you wrote before along in these posts - i see you are still dealing ALOT with what SHE has done, trying to get details, trying to figure things out. Now - when you talk to her - if you are thinking negatively - these things come out in your actions.

I know if I am thinking of Sprint's A, etc, etc - then when we try to have a good time, I ruin it all - not because I say anything - but because what's in my mind somehow shows in what I say and do - even without saying it.



I think you may be dead on. Showing remorse might make her feel safe - like you aren't going to go seek another woman, like you aren't going to leave. I know that if Sprint wasn't telling me he loved me everyday and showing and acting that way too - then I WOULD want more remorse...as I would be wondering - if he isn't loving me, and not showing remorse - then is he really here? Or is he still playing with the other woman, or thinking about leaving again...Paranoia would set in.

In re-reading your posts - i get the idea you aren't sure what you want...is this coming accross in your marriage too - is Mrs. Wonk picking up on the not sure what you want vibes? And then on top she isn't seeing remorse the way her mind wants her too - and BANGO - she is wondering if you are still in your A. Make sense in a way.

But like I have told others here - you can't make her see your view or point as she is not you. The best you can do is work with her and what she feels and needs, despite what you feel or need.

It's MB who says - if both spouses become givers and keep their takers quelled - both spouses benefit. In some cases, one spouse has to take the initiative and be the giver and not get anything in return...

It does make sense. I get it. I always have. I guess I just don't express it in the way she needs. But, part of me thinks "why can't she meet me in the middle?" Can she not accept that I am trying? That there are things that I have done that makes her feel good?

Yes, some days I am still fighting myself. I never got to have my anger faze. (I went off and had my own A, instead. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) Now that I have finally gotten the truth out of her, it has brought back all of those feelings from her A and...well, someone else said it best. The marriage that we had before was destroyed and now I have to learn to love her all over again.



No, I realize that I probably do this, too. I'm just tired of dealing with this every day. I just want to have a few days where there are no counseling appts, no lists of needs to be met, no fear if the telephone rings, no fear of who is doing what on the computer...

I know. A lot of this has to come from within. And, I have been trying. There are some days, however, that I don't do quite so well.



I have tried to be more engaged. I have tried to give her the opportunity to talk more about what is going on. I really have. As far as my needs? I don't even remember what they were, let alone worry about having them met. I still feel like she has a checklist and it is frustrating.

Maybe that's a good place to start.

When Sprint was hurting, I really wanted to be able to help him heal - even when he was SUPER angry with me. I wanted to be able to do something...and once in awhile he would tell me what I could do...

Maybe find out your needs, do the EN list with her. Give her something to do while you get over things...and guess what -as she meets those needs, she will be depositing units back into your Love Bank and you will be developing a new relationship as you heal.

And ask for what her needs are too, and try as hard as you can to meet those...at first you may seem resentful or angry about it...but remember a goal. Your goal is to build a new marriage and relationship. Don't think of your feelings at that moment or you will react on them - think of the feelings yes, but remember the goal - the marriage...and react based on the goal.

I wanted to post some wise words written in an old post to Patriot and Frozen that NC Walker & Gimble posted.

*****

Was it Roy Rogers who said "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there?"

Scrap all that has been said so far and look between the lines. What we have here is two people who are demonstratively NOT afraid to say what they feel. When they feel offended or bad. A good start.

There is energy, but there is no plan. The HMSS Froz/Pat is all motor and no rudder. Throttle back, and look to the horizon. What is your course?

Go back and read "Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery After an Affair" in the Q&A Columns.

Rule 1: Avoid being the cause of your spouses unhappiness.
Froz, the Bible says a nagging wife is like a constant dripping. Proverbs is just FULL of stuff about how horrible a woman who can't control her mouth is. Men have trouble with a woman berating or nagging us. Makes us feel like mom is back and smothering. We like freedom. Words of PRAISE carry lots of weight with us. So what do you do? You have asked nicely, right? And no answer? Keep on asking nicely. He is not responding, and I am not saying you don't have a right to know. What I am saying is if your GOAL is to find out the truth, and your anger/nagging/yelling about it is the fruit of your FRUSTRATION, it will take you FARTHER from your goal. If you want to ease your frustration, hammer away at him. But if you want him to open up, restrain that mouth. A mouthy wife shuts a man down in record time. Is it fair? No. It's reality.

Rule 2: Meet your spouses most important emotional needs.
Your turn, Pat. Clearly honesty about your activities is one of them. I am a BS as well, and there were things I had to know too. She is "buying" the fact that you are hers again. But she kind of needs to know what she is buying. So you think you are protecting her feelings? How do YOU know that? Telling her the truth is crucial. Both of you should be calm. You need to be especially watchful. You guys can stop if it is too much. It is scary. Watch her as you tell her, and Froz - be mature. If you have heard so much that you are about to LB him, take a break. This medicine is best swallowed quickly, just don't choke trying to get it all down at once. Pat, it is up to you as the spiritual head to shepherd her through this. And it will be a test of your patience. This kind of stuff is hard for the fairer sex to process as they tend not to compartmentalize.

Rule 3: Give your spouse your undivided attention.
No kids, TV, distractions when you do this. Read on what "active listening" is. No doubt the two of you have no problems with expressing (much like me and my WW). But clearly, there is a listening problem. Proverbs again - Be quick to LISTEN, slow to speak, and slow to anger.

Rule 4: Be completely honest with your spouse.
COMPLETELY. Are you getting this, Pat? TRUST ME on this, I am a BS. The demons will grow these unanswered questions FAR LARGER than the truth actually is. Answer as much as she wants, just make sure there is a safety net. A means to get away if it becomes too painful. This is NECESSARY in the recovery - point conceded to Froz. HOWEVER, if it is executed poorly, it can cause more damage - point conceded to Pat.

At the end, the both of you appear to be keeping the bests interests of the marriage in mind. And the both of you are RIGHT. The solution is COUPLED. It must be advanced uniformly for the best chance of success or it will bind and cause damage. Like a platoon beginning to march. EVERYBODY steps off on the left foot on the command MARCH. If anyone is out of cadence, it turns from a formation to a Charlie-Foxtrot real quick. This will be the same.

The goal the two of you need to have is keeping each other on the same page - then keep the recovery advancing. Only way you will make it.

Try something different. Make a report card with the four rules. Really, make some blank forms and print a bunch of copies. Grade how you think you did, then grade each other. Compare notes. Promise to each other something real and measurable to show improvement.

======
Excerpt from Froz/Pat just before bed:
Froz: So Pat, Rule # 2. I think I did a B performance today. What do you think?
Pat: Sorry hon, I gave you a C-minus.
Froz: Really, why?
Pat: Well, when I came home, I came to give you a hug while you were cooking and you seemed distant.
Froz: I see. So if I promise to remember to return your affection, I'll get a better grade on Rule 2.
Pat: Yeah. It means a lot.
Froz: I can do that. I just felt a little cold when you got home. See, when I called you at work, I was really struggling with dealing with the affair junk. And you seemed short with me on the phone. You didn't even say I love you.
Pat: I'm sorry. I was really busy when you called. I didn't mean it.
Froz: I figured, but you didn't even tell me that. You were just short. I am wounded and need some reassurance from you.
Pat: Guess I didn't score to well on Rule #2 today either, did I?
Froz: Sorry.
Pat: OK. I will try to make sure I pause and give you my attention when you call. You do deserve it. You don't call so much that it is bothersome, so it's the least I can do. Would that get my grade up?
Froz: Sure would.
=====
May sound corny. What have you got to lose, other than your marriage? It's practical, visual, and what you're doing right now doesn't seem to be working. I have a feeling the two of you are demonstrative, visual people.

Don't promise the farm to each other. You guys are trying to change HABITS. Hard to do. Pick one, work on it RELENTLESSLY and it will change. Don't stop until it is conquered and changed. Means you will have to be careful you tell each other the most important ones first, so you get the greatest reward. Also means you will have to be patient with each other as the others sit in the holding pattern waiting for attention.

Then turn the motor back on. Set your course now, start slow, watch your progress, keep the eye on the prize. Don't forget to look back, now and again. It is a real pick-me-up to see how much progress you have made.

NCWalker

*******

Hi, Frozen and Patriot.

Here is what I suggest.

Patriot: Pursue your wife.

Frozen: No grabby/needy stuff.

I think NCW made some excellent suggestions to you.

On the choice of marriage. It was your (collective) choice. Don't second guess it. To do so now is just a waste of time.

My wife made a similar choice almost 30 years ago, only worse. She chose to marry a loser, user and a player - me.

God bless,
Gimble

*********

Are you saying your W does not do this? She never acknowledges what you do right or thanks you? Is she maybe not doing it in the way you need it or not enough? Or do you need to "read between the lines" as DS suggests? Maybe she is doing it, but you are not allowing yourself to see it. Food for thought.

Improving has a good point. I was UNABLE to see that Sprint was trying - and thought he wasn't meeting in the middle - he realizes now he wasn't trying on the marriage, but trying for himself

BUT it was a disrespectful judgement on my part to say that he wasn't trying to meet me in the middle...it just wasn't how I needed it - and it wasn't for the marriage - Sprint was healing for him and not for the marriage.

could it be possible what you are showing your wife is not healing for the marriage but healing for yourself. Maybe she is getting mixed signals - as one is very different than the other.

I only say this - because I too felt Sprint never tried...now I realize he did - but on himself, and not the marriage...he had to fix himself first. Although what he DIDN'T realize is he could work on himself and the marraige too if we stuck with MB....

I don't think it's because you aren't allowing yourself to see it, as improving says, But I think it's maybe a matter of sending mixed signals to your wife without meaning too based on her perceptions of things

We all see what we see - perceptions are a tricky thing...Sprints perceptions are quite drastically different than mine...Your perception is you have done things and are trying but she can't see it, and her perception is I am trying and he won't meet me in the middle...when funny thing is - those are just perceptions and not reality.

Perhaps try to explain it her from her perception? I know it's hard to be the one to have to do the things, when they may not be doing the same, but one has to give to make progress right?

Ok - haha posted by accident WHOOPS


Okay

A wise woman on here (pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) once told me after Sprint had is A - not to let it become an Even thing - like okay - you did it to me, I did it to you to do comparison etc.

What I learned from that is that if you focus TOO much on what ther other did to you - you forget what you did to them.

So instead of focusing on all the things Sprint doesn't do, or DID to me, I focus instead on all the things I am CHANGING for the marriage, on all the things I DO for Sprint - regardless of his effort or what he does.

I think Sprint is at that point too - instead of focusing on what I DID to him, he is focused on what he is DOING now for me, and for our marriage...the things he DIDN'T do before.

I think that is the key to recovery in a situation like this. To get a goal (the marriage), and then stick with it. The thing is - you have can't have too many expectations or your spouse is bound to fail.

the ONLY expectation I have of Sprint is that he will continue to lay down new foundation for our FUTURE. I have NO expectations on him in regards to healing, remorse, how he behaves, what he does, how he trusts - NONE. And I can say he finally has the same expectation of me - that I work towards a good marriage.

Maybe you need to throw your expectations of your wife (and in Imp's sitch, her H) and focus on what YOU did to your spouse...and what you are going to do from now on, regardless of how they are acting.