Had a MC session today and am stuck on something. Thought I'd ask you guys for your thoughts.

WH says that while he cares for me and that I'm a great person, smart, intelligent, compatible sexually, etc. he doesn't feel the "chemistry" between us.

I asked him what that means and his initial response was, "you feel it here <pointing to his chest>." I said it sounds like the nerves you feel when a relationship is new and exciting. He says it's not that. MC tried to dig deeper and was able to get that WH means less sexual chemistry but more emotional chemistry. But that was pretty much it for this go around.

Anyone have any bright lights they can help me to shine on this one?

my opinion is that it starts a little higher...
usually in the frontal lobe and limbic system....

it moves in to the chest area because of the thought processes and energy spent in the brain focusing, thinking of and cherishing someone in the mind...even when not around...so when they enter the visual fields ...the brain sends out sparks....

that are received elsewhere....

ARK

Anyone have any bright lights they can help me to shine on this one?


Hey STWP !

All I can say is that a month after D-day my dear Squid was telling me to date, telling me she never loved me and being as spiteful as a wasp under a beer glass.

I guess she would have said that our " emotional chemistry" isn't working too had she thought of it.

Active WS and withdrawing FWS may truly , genuinely feel they don;t love BS, and do not blieve they ever will love BS again.

But with work and time, they can !

Squid says she "adores" me now. I guess our 'chemistry' got medicated by MB work and time !

Don't lean hard on anything he says for a while yet, look at what he DOES instead - the fact he is attending MC with you says volumes about his attitude.

All blessings

bOb,

""being as spiteful as a wasp under a beer glass.""

You continue to amaze and entertain!!

k

I was thinking about this very thing today..."chemistry"

I knew I'd seen it addressed, so I brought this one back up.

I sometimes wonder about this "chemistry" as well. Early in my life I doscounted it as stray emotion...nothing to based a real decision on.

Prompted more by advice I've given my daughter recently, I've been thinking about the importance of "chemistry" between a man and a woman.

I see many people advising others on this site to "think back to your dating days" to recover "chemistry" for a spouse. What if it was never there to start with?

Why is it that we are instantly attracted or repulsed by someone? I have met women that were not considered beautiful by any stretch of the imagination but they captured my attention immediately. I have met very beautiful women who I felt nothing but ice for.

And I can't explain this.

I have become convinced that a relationship that does not start with "chemistry" will not be an easy one if it becomes a marriage. Many relationship problems can be worked through using various techniques (like MB stuff), but a lack of "chemistry" may be virtually impossible to overcome. It's like so many who feel like they have to sacrifice "passion" for stability in a mate. Why shouldn't we seek both? Why must it be either/or? Are they mutually exclusive?

When I advise my daughters, I ask them about the "chemistry". If it's not there, I advise them to move on as quickly as possible...regardless of their other qualities. They will never be happy with them or will have to expend incredible energy to reach a similance of a happy state.

I did not feel "chemistry" for my wife when we married. I never have. She says she felt it for me. I married her because I believed she was a good woman and would make a good wife and mother. I was sure that I could grow to love her and I have. I have stayed in my marriage because I do truly love her and am committed to it.

But I fear that, out of ignorance and immaturity, I have cheated both of us out of the lives we could have had. Now, we have to settle for making our marriage the best it can be otherwise...and we have to work so hard for it to be so.

I don't want my daughters making the same mistake.

So...any further thoughts on "chemistry". What does it mean if it's only one sided? How important is it really? What kind of marriage do you have if you've never had it? Can it be created? How? What do you do if you realize it's not there and never was?

Low

Low I'm gonna play with your post and your wording...

it's as much an experiment in trying to understand what is you seek...
what it is you believe about it...
and helping me understand what it is you are trying to identify...

I beg your indulgence...

It's like so many who feel like they have to sacrifice "passion" for stability in a mate.

this is unclear to me..

what is passion to you...
and what does the existance of passion have to do with stability

Why shouldn't we seek both?
Is it your belief that passon is an entity of itself...it exists within a vacuum
or
is it your belief that passion is the result of energy expended on its creation ?

I married her because I believed she was a good woman and would make a good wife and mother.

this statement on some level may be a mars vs venus statement or it could be me....

I have to say that with my husband....I never gave much cranial thought to his ability to be a good father...

and men frequently claim this....
so I'm not picking on you...just thinking with my finger tips outloud...

to be honest when my husband and I were dating..

I thought he was a good person...I mean he never kicked puppies or called babies ugly.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
but I never gave much thought to his being a good father...

I also thought he was a good designated driver...and at that time in my life...that was very important... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It was more an assumption that the qualities that he expended on treating me good ..spilled over in to an unspoken assumption that he would be good with kids...
when we got married...

it is interesting to me when people say this...to see their partner as a seperate entity.....
as a parent
as a spouse..
I just saw someone I wanted to be with...


Now, we have to settle for making our marriage the best it can be otherwise...and we have to work so hard for it to be so.

why do you believe that you have to work harder than other people..
how would you know such a thing
how would you gage such a thing
and
how would you conclude such a thing....

how do you think that people that you consider to have passionate marriages....do so or make it so...

AND
to be painfully honest...the love and passion I felt for him on our wedding day...
is a total smidgen compared to the love and passion I feel for him today...

it has grown from a tiny speck to insurmountable admiration and depth...

I could never ever ever repeat my wedding vows to him
in such a public manner as our wedding was..
it's become too personal
too intimate
too unspeakable without great emotion...
and I would never get through them without becoming a humble puddle of a mess....
and I couldn't do it publicly.....

I had NO idea what the real meaning was behind those vows when I spoke them...
I had NO idea what the real power is behind those vows when I first spoke them..

I don't think I could have...because of the lack of shared life experiences....

There is without a doubt a strong functional aspect of the human species that is based on phermones....and such...
but I don't think it is a ruling force or places people in to categories that can be markers to place a marriage in to a level of degrees of passion...

is that what you think....

that we are predestined to feel passion with a finite number of individuals on this planet....


ark^^

Depth of passion can be directly related to our willingness to take risks...to throw caution to the wind...to be spontaneous. It means not playing it "safe" and taking the sure bet.

I think about the car I drive. It's a beige Toyota. Reliable. No Surprises. I can always count on it. BUT...it doesn't move me. I am satisfied with it, but not passionate about it. Then, on the other hand, think of owners of Italian sports cars. Those cars are expensive, tempermental, uncomfortable...but their owners are fiercely passionate about them.

To be sure, people are not cars. But I think the presence of this mystical "chemistry" causes one to put up with a whole lot more crap than we would otherwise. It's demonstrated in these forums daily.



It is both. The energy expended is motivated by the desire. It is my belief that passion involves an element of unpredicitability...of spontaneaty. Both qualities are the antithesis of safety and stability.



And this is what I find so troubling. I'm not sure that we ever had the kind of relationship where we saw each other as a real person. This is why teenagers should not marry.



I am not sure that we have to work harder than others. I just see that bubbly, google-eyed look that some couples still give each other after many years and I'm envious. I'm convinced being with my wife would be more natural if we had "that".

I have been in passionate relationships with other women...before my marriage and, sadly, during it. I've always comforted myself with the assurance that what I have in my marriage is better than the flighty passion of those relationships. But that doesn't keep me from yearning for it...and wondering why my marriage can't be that way.

I have no idea how people with passionate relationships keep that up...hence this post.

I have read Schnarch...my wife and I were never well differentiated. Now that we're moving more towards that, we're wondering if we really even like each other that much.



No, I don't think of it in these terms. But it's apparent that we don't have chemistry with everyone. Therefore, our pool of mates is limited to those we are...not everyone.

Low

Low
would you say that regardless of the chemical feelings towards the OP in your marital relationships...

can you see any differences in the amount of energy you expended on the OP vs your wife....

AND

while I understand it was feeling driven....

do you see self expendature more to those OP...based on your compartalmentalizing your wife in various examples as safe...and stable...

Is it possible you are mixing up the adrenaline rush of the new OP and new relationships with a chemical connection...
and not seeing the energy used to create the excitement of an affair vs your perceived non excitement and non spontanity of your marriage...?

are you saying you do not find your wife attractive.....?

thanks low..

ark

I HAVE to share this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Just about everyone who has read my sit. knows that Phil was/is convinced that as much as he still loves me and as much as he thinks I'm beautiful and as much as he still has a physical response to me -- there just isn't passion anymore even though we used to have it (had passion baaad) and this is maybe THE primary reason for his not (yet!) reconciling.

A couple of years ago Phil bought a very nice car. He loved it. It was gorgeous. All sleek, stylish, sporty and recognizable as being a couple steps up from the ordinary, but not flashy or what anyone would consider a super self-indulgent luxury vehicle.

After Phil had this car for a while, he started to complain about it. He complained all the time. This was broken, that was annoying - he wanted a new car. He was sorry he ever bought this car even though his decision came after a lot of time and searching and this car was his favorite. He hated driving it now and he was looking at new cars and weighing his options.

Skip ahead to just before D-day. Phil had a car accident. He was fine. His car was totaled. Insurance paid out the full amount Phil paid for his car. (Phil has some good insurance! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) With a bunch of money in his pocket, Phil now had the opportunity to buy a new car without taking any loss - he could get a new car he was really passionate about.

Based on Phil's leaving, his A, and all of your life experience, anyone care to guess what Phil ran out and bought?

.
.
.
.
.

Phil found someone selling a used car that was the same make, model, year, interior color, exterior color, custom modifications, even about the same mileage as the car he'd totaled. The ONLY difference between his old car and his new car is the hub cap style!

LowOrbit, your analogy spoke to me. Maybe Phil doesn't have passion for me anymore. Ask him today and he'll tell you he loves his car, he was just unhappy then. Anyone who used to see us together saw us share that googly look. Even recently it was there to be seen. But STILL, Phil will say no, the passion we had is gone and so he won't come back. Maybe I'm Phil's old car?

The way you are presenting this, it's inarguable - you either feel something or you don't. That is how I see things with Phil and the whole passion discussion too. We had tremendous passion. Both of us. According to him, his didn't last. What you said about your feelings reminds me a lot of what Phil would say today. And I can't argue his feelings. They are his feelings.

So why did he get aroused WHENEVER he was near me? Why did he get aroused any time he touched me? Why did he want to kiss me and then would get angry at himself for wanting to so badly? Ask him and he'll say it just happened. It was just something that happened to him automatically and that he still didn't feel any passionate desire for me. But there is still that "new" car he bought for himself that makes me wonder....

Sally

This is a good question. Rather, I should say, it was a good question for a while after D-Day.

I received a greater than standard ration of WS spite. I heard way more than my share of revisionist history. I was blamed for everything that’s wrong in the entire universe.

I was surprised to learn there was never any chemistry between us in the first place.

I heard her tell me, “They just clicked.”

Is all this what is meant by passion? Is all this a reason for adultery?

I even heard, “I have feelings for both of you.”

Right. Feelings.

Nowadays I don’t care about feelings. Not a bit. Feelings are neither right nor wrong. They just are.

I still love-is-a-verb my W. But the passionate feelings I had for her are gone. She killed the passion I had for her with her LTA and all the years of lies and false recoveries.

But I still love her. The difference now is I know I will be just fine without her. Shoot, maybe better. Maybe I just no longer feel like taking risks with her.

I still and always choose to act loving towards her. That does indeed fill me with good feelings for her. Even through their occasional work contact.

Doing is always better than feeling, in everything. Doing even when the feelings are not there is better yet. Feelings should follow doing. Not the other way around.

Passion is highly overrated, IMO. It always dies, you know. Always. Even the all- consuming fiery passion for OP. It always dies. Only the steady heat from attachment remains in the end.

I read recently that arraigned marriages in the US (mostly immigrant families) have way, way less infidelity and divorce than passionate, chemistry based, marriages. And they consistently score higher in over-all happiness and connectedness. So, arraigned marriages end up having better “feelings” and “chemistry,” than yours, even.

Why do you suppose that is?

I absolutely believe I expended huge amounts of personal energy on the affair...and now my marriage. Lots of energy on both.

The difference lies in the motivation and desire.

It's hard to talk about this "it" if we really can't define it. I used to think that something that was so difficult to define must not exist and I tried to deny it.

But "it" does exist. "It" has inspired epics and poems through the ages. "It" has driven men to lie and cheat...even murder. "It" drives us to move mountains for the other without blinking an eye at the cost.

What is "it"? Why is it that the energy we expend for someone we "click" with seems effortless while it's drudgery if we don't?

I don't think I'm mixing up the adreneline rush...because I can still see examples of "it" in couples who've been together a long time.

Yes, I think my wife is very beautiful. She looks a lot like Martina McBride, if you'd like visual. She is very conservative. She's pleasant to be around. Reliable. Stable. Comfortable. All very good things. I often think to myself "I'm a pretty lucky guy."

But no "it". No weak in the knees. No butterflies. Never was.

Ark, I see you describe why you couldn't do a public wedding again...I cannot remotely relate.

Apparently, you and your H have "it".

Sally, if I had at least this...that we'd once been very passionate about each other...I would be so much more hopeful.

LOW:

I think your wife can have "IT"...

She needs "CHEMISTRY LESSONS"...

I have turned "IT" back on and I know how to turn "IT" back off. I don't plan to do that ever again...

You are having the thought that it is MAGICAL..

I do not believe that is so..I believe you would like to think that it is MAGICAL...

Part of the "CHEMISTRY LESSON" I would give to your wife is how to help maintain the "ILLUSION" that "IT" is MAGICAL...

Seems to me that my H needs that sense of MAGIC regarding the CHEMISTRY...I eagerly provide him with that gift daily.....

I've become intimate enough with him, no longer detached, to understand and to try to stay attuned to what he needs...

I look for that SPARKLE in his EYE...sometimes I almost hear a PURR....I keep doing the things that produce those responses....

CHEMISTRY?

I can't disagree with anything you've said. I was very much in a similar place until the discussion with my daughter.

If you had a daughter, Aph, and she was asking you about marriage to a particular man, what would you tell her? In my daughter's case, the man is from a wealthy family, has a promising future, is physically attractive, and fun to be around. But when I asked here if she felt "it", she instantly knew what I was talking about and said "No"

Should she marry this man?

Had this occurred five years ago, I'm sure I would've been extolling the virtues of marrying a rich, good looking plastic surgeon. Feelings? Don't worry about those...I'm sure they'll come with time.

But not today. So I wonder about the implications for my own marriage.

Feelings may not be right or wrong...but they matter. I'm just not sure why they do as much as they do, but I know that they do...a lot.

Ok, mimi, I'm game.

How do you create this? Can you mix some up and mail it to me?

Low

Before my H's A, I used to think this is how he wanted me to be...

I turned into the above as you describe your wife...

How can you let her know that you need and want more than this?

I bet she wants to be more than this...



I remember that woman...YUK....

I am so much freer.. Life is so much more FUN...

BTW..Steve Harley clued me in to this...He told me that this is BEHAVIORAL and will take PRACTICE...to produce what you are calling CHEMISTRY.....

Low
what I am telling you is that I didn't feel "it" with my husband..


I loved him then..but NOT like I love him today..
I would have said I adored him them...like the cute little boy he was........today I adore him deeply for the man he has become..................

it if nothing else is and was a work in progress...and sometimes it requires huge effort.......
and feels ackward
and feels empty...
but it is as fleeting in the negative as it is in the positive........
it is a balance that works to even things out...
and it is gobs of work...
but the payoff is great


and for every poem composed that delights the muse...100 are written about the same person that line the trash heaps....

low..does your wife work to surprize..delight and entertain you ?

ark
waiting for you to post Mimi your address ;0 )

***sigh***

Mimi...this is where we've been gridlocked for the year.

I'm communicating because I've learned that the only way I'll ever get what I need and find out what she needs.

Bottom line...in her words, "This is who I am". She won't change because she believes changing to become a bit "more free" would cause her to compromise her beliefs.

We've communicated about this until we're blue in the face. She doesn't want to be more than this.

Sounds like "it" to me!



Sadly, no more. We were heading in this direction for a while. I was full of hope.

But then, she quit. It's almost like she's telling me "Here I am. You either love me or you don't"

I have tried to inject surprise and delight from my end, thinking that I could make up enough for both of us. Response was usually "less than enthusiastic".

Ark has it:



I do this with my H because I have chosen to be more intimate with him.

We've got to help you with your wife...she needs to do this....