I've been thinking about this one a lot. And I think the answer is "it depends" - it depends on who he is NOW and what he does to prove that the WS is someone he used to be and not someone he is STILL.

I'd say that he might convince me by being honest and up front about it right from the very beginning, willing to answer any questions I have and maybe even willing to let me dig around for corroborating evidence of his story without being insulted that I wouldn't take his word for it... Then, if the relationship became exclusive and serious he'd have to be willing to be accountable to me. My biggest fear would be that I would wind up poisoning the relationship myself with unwarranted paranoia, considering my own experiences as a BS. Hopefully, since I would be honest and up front about being a BS right from the very beginning (without harping on it and scaring him away), he would be prepared for the possibility of brief moments of paranoia and be willing to deal with them by being understanding -- AND accountable.

If he LIED to me about it after we started dating... now, THAT would bring about a quick demise of any further relationship.

Crystalsinger: Your assessment is spot-on. However my personal experience, and the testimonies of many throughout the MB board, indicate that you will not find many WS's who will agree to your highly reasonable requests. (There was a female WS who recently wrote a compelling thread taking total and complete responsibility for her affair-actions. Her post rocked the GQ2 board several months ago for it's no-frills, in her own face accountability.) However, most WS's keep one foot in the fog when it comes to assuming full accountability for choosing to have their affairs and still try to somehow "blame" their BS's, their childhood, etc. for their own actions.

FR

FR.....
That's the truth!!! They do try to blame everyone around them and never do really take full responsibility. I still say no matter what I would never date a former WS!!! Couldn't do it~~~~

I've thought about this for several days. Would I date a former WS? Well, yeah, and I think we all would. It isn't like we live in a world of Hester Prenn s, who are all walking around in scarlet letters. And no one is going to include that they once cheated on their spouse in the initial stages.

The real question is "Would you [/b]marry[/b] a former WS?" That's a harder question and I think that others here have address both the pros and cons rather well. Some people come to understand the wrongness of their betrayal and are truly sorry for it. Others think it's water under the bridge and/or no big deal (danger Will Robinson!!). So it would depend on the person. But always in the back of my mind would be the knowledge that it's always harder to do something wrong the first time than in subsequent times. So I'd have to be very convinced that the woman has learned her lesson and would never go there again.

I haven't input anything here for a while, because I've been busy (in part, developing a relationship with someone).

But about a BS (him) dating a former WS (me--who is a BS as well):

Just wanted to say, so far the guy I am seeing has heard my entire marriage blow-by-blow and has been given detail of my former WS experiences (as well as my BS experiences during both my ex's affairs). But like some of you have said, I believe it's important--no matter how hard being honest can be initially, because it can make a former WS feel really low--it's been the best thing in the world for us. (And thanks to those on here who encouraged me to just be strong and get it out right at the beginning.)

In fact, because of some other things that happened just before I started seeing this guy, I've been a completely open book about everything from the start.

He has chosen to accept me as I am and focus on the future and where we're going and not the past and where we've been (his own words). He did ask me a few questions the night I told him everything, and then said I could put it behind me and not bring it up again. I told him I'd love to do that, but to know that if he did have any other questions ever, that I would answer them as well.

He's had only one more since then, "Did your kids know about it." The answer--yes, the first time. No, the second time.

But point being--although I admit that my marriage to a rather verbally (and a couple times physically) abusive alcoholic made me far more vulnerable than perhaps an average marriage where the spouse comes home at night and is sober, I would never try and blame my mistakes on anyone but myself. It wasn't searching for excitement and I didn't want out of my marriage. I wanted pain to go away and I ended up leaning on someone other than God to do that, and in a couple weak moments I let myself be alone with him and that is just not something any opposite-sex people who are married should ever do, especially when they're vulnerable and weak. And I did something very stupid and very wrong.

I have made it clear to the guy I'm seeing that everything in my life is open to him if he chooses. And while I know he doesn't have to share anything he chooses not to share, as we've progressed in our relationship he's been very open about his life and his relationships (both his marriage and the two longer term relationships he's had since). I know details; he knows details.

And as I've said--I appreciate honesty and think it's an absolute necessity in a relationship. It keeps people accountable.

And for anyone who has kept up with my saga, things are going very well with this guy. I've met two of his kids, I've met his brother and sister-in-law. And he's spoken of many things we could do over the course of time, so while I'm not sure what the future holds, I do think there is the potential of a future. I think my biggest challenge with him is going to be keeping our relationship out of the bedroom at some point down the line, in part because I care so much for him already and also because it's a longer-distance relationship so it's very hard to end a date at midnight and then one of us have to drive another 2 hours home in the wee hours (but that's a topic for the no-sex-before-marriage thread), because I really care about him and it seems to be quite mutual.

LL

LL...I think that's the key....be honest up front. Good for you! I hope it works out with this new guy. I can't wait to start dating. I'm actually getting excited about it. Weird huh?

Crystalsinger - I agree with this statement - and as a FWS, I would and will always be accountable. But (and I speak to this from both a WS and BS perspective), I would also expect reciprocal accountability. To me, it's about equality and radical honesty in the M. Just wanted to put in my .02

TreeReich - I'm sorry, but I take great offense to this statement. I DO NOT blame everyone....much less ANYONE....around me for my A. In fact, I solely blame myself for making such a horrible decision. Now, I've spent the past 2 1/2 years working on myself to resolve my own internal issues as to why I

a) even let the A be an option

and

b) chose to have the A instead of another healthy choice.

And to be honest, I am not frightened anymore of telling anybody that I had an A. Because I have used it to help me grow into a healthy person. And by taking FULL ownership of my choice, I am now consciously aware of my patterns, my choices, and my emotional health. So I am very free and up front about letting someone know that I had one, and it was MY choice.....but I also follow up with what I have learned about M, about myself, and how I have grown from the experience. I can't undo the past, but I sure can better myself in the present and future.

Please be careful when you make blanket statements. I will NEVER put the responsibility of my A on anyone else but myself. I made the choice. And as far as I'm concerned, that means I've taken FULL responsibility.

I have no judgement against anyone who would not date a FWS....because obviously, that person wouldn't be a 'healthy' match for me. BUT I do ask that you at least respect those of us to take FULL and COMPLETE ownership for our past actions. And have worked really hard to better ourselves and recover.

Just a humble request.

While I understand the importance of radical honesty, there are times when it does not apply. LL states that the new man in her life has got a blow-by-blow history of her former marriage. That is her choice, of course. But I will never, ever do this. While I will provide basic information on the reasons for my divorce and focus on what it all means to be, I will not give details of the private relationship with my former wife. Why? Because they aren't wholly mine to give. My wife's and my relationship was private when we were married and that is a boundry. Private is private, and I don't get to change the rules just because I'm no longer married to her. In keeping with this philosophy, were a new love interest to insist on all the salient and private details of my relationship with my ex-wife, I would end the relationship, since I would know that she doesn't respect boundries or privacy. Actually, I I've done this already, with a woman who had to know everything before she could consider moving forward. It sent up a major red flags. I learned later that she had major trust issues.

Wow - this thread picked up speed again - didn't it? Kinda reminds me of those %&#*& hurricanes last year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

lordslady: Your last post is mostly well stated.

However this statement is much like an oxymoron. You're saying that you don't blame xh, however you still feel the need to include details of what he did in your M. If there was truly no belief that xh had anything to do with your choice to have an affair, there would be no reason whatsoever to say those things. That does not dismiss xh's responsibility for contributing to a poor M - but there is NEVER a good reason for having an affair. It is subliminal accusations like this that drive us BS's up a wall, (and reinforce our commitment to never date WS's!)

LIT: I rarely speak for anyone, however I take great offense to your response to Treereich. While I am happy that you've learned from your indiscretion (and it sounds like you have); it seems arrogant to me that a WS (even a former WS) would take offense to any remark by a BS. While you've been working on your issues for 2-1/2 years now - how about considering what Treereich is now forced to deal with for the rest of her life! You made the conscious choice to cheat on your family. Treereich had no choice in the destruction of her marriage and family! So please - take a step back and have a clear look at the perspectives!

I will attempt to locate the previous post from a WW who took clear, unencumbered responsibility for her actions and also has the resolve to consider how her BH & family feels & felt. It was inspiring to many a BS, and also to many WS's.

FR

I agree with what CheckUrHeart just said--you shouldn't be forced to give any information beyond the facts of what you need to be honest about.

In my case, I have volunteered the information in bits and pieces over our last month together--I am a very open person. And he has also volunteered many, many details of his own life--his childhood, his marriage, his other relationships. Same thing, I didn't ask. It's who the two of us are. It helps us get to know the other one and knowing the details helps us understand who each other are. For us, it's a very comfortable thing and is something we want to do, not something we feel we must do.

So I think it just depends on the situation in which you are volunteering the info. Forced=bad! Voluntary may well be a very good thing.

LL

FR,

My statement may not have come out very well. I have a tendency to do that.

My point: I made the decision to sleep with that guy two times because of my own stupidity. My point was that had I been in a more normal marriage, I wouldn't have been in the same situation in the first place. Point--I'm not one to just say, 'Hey, I'm bored, or I need some excitement, or I need to feel that someone is attracted to me--I'm going to do this." There are situations that up the odds of something like that happening. And yes, the actions of my ex did play into that, there is no denying. (Just as there were probably actions of mine that played into his drinking to excess and his porn use, though I don't believe either of those were justified either.) That is why Dr. Harley stresses the importance of meeting emotional needs. When the needs are met, the vulnerabilities are not as great (most of the time--there are exceptions to that rule where a spouse can be in a great marriage and still feel the need to cheat).

But nothing--absolutely NOTHING--that my ex did actually justified my doing it!!

Not sure if that does or doesn't clarify. But that's my opinion.

LL

Here is the post I was referring to by kyellow (unaltered, no spell-check, etc. and as passionate as I recall when first reading it!):


FR

lady:

Your opinion is respected and I agree 100% with your statement: .

And I have no doubt that every marriage in America has room for improvement! And some are worse than others, no doubt about it. I also believe in Harley's emotional needs and did so for several years before my xw chose her affair and D. However nothing will affect my own opinion that there is never, ever a good reason to have an affair. (For what it's worth - I felt this strongly about affairs prior to my xw's choice!)

This thread asked the question about dating people who had cheated. It is an emotional topic that brought out statements from people on both sides of the fence. There were also beliefs spoken of that I happen to oppose and feel that most victims of affairs also oppose. Perhaps a former WS will read a post from a BS that "hits home", or perhaps sheds a different light on the subject... Who knows? But I for one will always be passionate about this subject, and about people who harm children. And adulterers who have kids do/did both.

FR

Good is in the eye of the beholder.

As one whose EN's weren't met..., who begged, pleaded, demanded, negotiated, and still stuck by her until misery was a constant companion, stumbling across someone who met those EN's, having those EN's met through an EA seemed like a pretty good reason at the time.

My XBS checked out of our marriage way before I did. It just took my EA for me to realize that she did. My EA made me realize how miserable I was. It made me realize I was too tired fighting so hard to keep her with me just to continue to be miserable.

An affair can be a wake up call. It is the claxon bell warning that death is near. Sometimes it is the only thing a BS can hear. If you are lucky, the relationship can be revived. For us, it was too late.

TheBigGuy:

I feel that you and I have moral and probably spiritual differences. Our differences are moot as we are clearly on different planets when it comes to commitment, vows, sanctity of marriage, etc. You believe in your way and I believe in mine. (That's why God made chocolate and vanilla!) However, clearly your choices would be wrong for me, and mine for you. There will never be a winner between you and I about these differences, so there is no sense in discussing it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

FR...I've got to ask this...because I was once a WS, am I not allowed to be offended by anything ever again? Am I supposed to live under the umbrella of guilt and anguish, allowing anybody to say whatever they wish about me JUST because I am a FWS?

I'm sorry, but I disagree that I can't be offended by something a BS says. In all honesty, I couldn't care less whether a BS or a WS said that remark. To me, the remark that 'NO WS ever takes full responsibility' is offensive. Because I don't believe it is true. Even YOU said that there was one WS who did take full responsibility. I'm honestly confused about what you are trying to point out to me.

And I'm not certain what you are trying to say about what TreeReich has to deal with. In no way am I minimizing what a BS goes through, as I have also been a BS. And I did not say anything about not taking responsibility for the destruction which my actions caused in my M. Nor am I saying that her WS shouldn't take full responsibility for his actions, and the pain and destruction which they caused.

I'm completely confused at your reaction, because it seems like you didn't listen to anything that I said - rather you reacted emotionally to my disagreeing with a BS...saw my WS label, and then decided I don't have a right to disagree.

FR - like you, TreeReich, LL, JL, and all other MBers, I am a person, and am entitled to disagree and take offense to things that people say. Particularly if it is a blanket generalization that doesn't fit.

I have absolutely nothing against TreeReich, and in fact, feel very strongly empathetic for her because she is going through some hard times as well. And I didn't say I was offended by her. Or by her BS status.

I'm sorry, FR....but regardless of my FWS status (course, if we are going by labels, I am a BS too), I am human. And I have a right to opinions. If you feel that I should never have a right to feel offended by something EVER AGAIN simply because I am a WS, then I am afraid you will be disappointed by me.

No, I really don't believe I am arrogant. I am no better than ANYONE else in this world. But yes, I have healed. Yes, I am still learning. And yes, I will forever feel incredible remorse about my choice. And I take full responsibility for that. I also take full responsibility for destroying my exH in that way. And I will never offer an excuse or justification for my former choice. But I WILL learn from it, and I will not forever think of myself as a horrible person. Because today I am someone I am proud of. TODAY I live my life in an honorable manner. That's not arrogance. That's simply learning to love myself TODAY for doing what I know is right and healthy.

Ironically, if I did not learn to love myself, I would be more at risk to make the same choice that I did. And you know what? I will take all measures possible to reduce my vulnerability as much as humanly possible. Because only I made the choice. And my choice was destructive, selfish, and completely dishonorable - to everyone involved. I DON'T blame anyone else but myself. Period. And I never will.

Please, honestly, I would like to understand better where you are coming from, and what you are trying to say to me.

So, TBG, I must ask you. When you marry again, will you find some other reason to ring that claxon bell? Sorry, but I believe that a marriage being troubled is no excuse to have an affair, whether that be EA or PA. You have to stay honest with yourself, recognize problems, deal with them, and if that doesn't work, you walk away. Then you consider going to the arms and heart of another woman, but not a moment sooner.

LIT:

Please re-read your post about Tree. I purposely used the same terminology as you did. As you're pointing out (and I agree) words can hurt, so all of us should proceed cautiously. I've never met TR, although I followed her plight for the last year, and it was ugly. So yes, I was coming from an emotional position for a battered BS.





Absolutely not! Why would you think that? I never suggested guilt or anguish - only compassion.



And I will say that you lack a certain amount of compassion! You as a WS should "care less" about who said that remark. All BS's have been involved in their own tragic situations - and you were a key-player in a like action. I have doubts as to whether you fully comprehend the damage that you (as a WS) and all other WS's created. [This is a common occurrence for WS's as kyellow points out in her passionate testimony.] Do you owe Treereich anything personally? It depends on your value system concerning humanity. After a thief does their prison time - do they owe those they stole from anything? After rapists complete their "rehabilitation", should they be compassionate to all victims of rape? Each of us hold our own answers to questions like those.


Of course you're entitled to disagree! That is a basic human right. Do you mean "blanket generalization" about all people - or about BS's? I was clearly talking about BS's, not all people. Should you show more compassion to all people? Of course not, why? Should you show more compassion to all BS's? In my book - ABSOLUTELY!




Please re-read my words. I did not infer that you should never feel offended by something "ever again for any reason". You took it to an extreme. I'm simply pointing out that your overall outlook on being a (sorry for label) "former WS" is exactly the reason why Treereich, myself and several thousand BS's will make the personal choice not to date WS's. IN the simplest sense - I don't think you "get it". And I don't mean that personally. It may be that you're incapable of "getting" how BS's are forever affected by the choices of their former most-emotionally trusted partner and family member. I am truly sorry that you may never get that. kyellow somehow, some way, learned to "get it". And I have faith that several other WS's "get it". And I am convinced that those WS's who get it - will forever hold a soft-spot in their heart for ALL BS's. That is not a penance - it's compassion!

FR

Oh, FR.....you have no idea how much I comprehend the damage that I did. And if you actually went back to read my past 2 years of posts, you might see that I do. And before you assume that I do not, remember that I am also a BS....actually, 2x over. Once when we were engaged, and then again, after my A. I know all too well both sides. You seem to only look at one side of me. Why?

Yes, I owe TR something. I do owe her compassion. I owe her respect. I owe her honesty. I owe her understanding. Please tell me where I have not shown her compassion for her stance as a BS. All I did was say that I was offended by her blanket statement that WS's do look for someone else to blame. I don't. I still fail to understand how my being offended at ONE statement is incompassionate. Because believe it or not, I do feel compassion for her situation. As do I any BS. WS's, not so much, because we/they make their choice.

Let me clarify here......

I took offense to the blanket statement. That does not mean that I don't have compassion for her. She and her statement are two different things. TR is a person as a whole. Just because I didn't like something she said doesn't reflect how I feel about her personally.


How do you know how I feel about BS's? You have not asked me. Nor did I say anything in my post about how I feel about being a BS or a WS or how I feel about those who are a BS or a WS.

FR...I do get it. I agree 150% with everything ky said...and I remember when she posted that. I wouldn't disagree with anything in that post. But that wasn't what I was saying. All I was saying was that some WS's do take full responsibility for what they did.

That's it. Nothing more. Nothing about how I feel about BS's. Nothing about how I feel about WS's. Period.

You know....I remember when I first posted on the Divorce board. You were one of the first people to respond, and you jumped all over me assuming that I hadn't done everything I could have to save my M. You assumed I wasn't remorseful/sorry/repentant/etc. for what I did.

It actually took Just Learning to come over and post before you actually stopped assuming.

You are putting words into my mouth on this thread. All I said was that I was offended by that one statement. That is not meant to be generalized into anything else. It does not reflect my opinion on any matter. All it reflects is that I believe a WS can take full responsibility.

I wish you well, and hope that you find happiness again. I am truly sorry that an experience similar to what I participated in has caused such great damage. I wish to God that I did not do what I had. And for that, I do take a certain amount of responsibility for every WS. I will forever feel compassion toward any BS affected by infidelity. You might not see it, but even after our D, my exH does. And that matters to me more than anything....that he knows how truly sorry I am. And that I blame him for none of it. Only myself and my weaknesses.

I do wish you the best. And all BS's for that matter.

Well, I am rarely bothered by what is posted here, because we all have our own stories and lived our own experiennces...but quite frankly this sanctimonious quote is crap....

How on God's green earth can you say that someone who has been a BS (even if they were a WS in some previous--or any--situation) doesn't get it.

We are all (mostly) BS's here with our own experience and pain and I can't understand how you think you can marginalize that for any of us by saying we are "incapable" of getting how BS's feel...or are affected....We too are BS's and we too are affected!!!

Quite frankly, it is hard not to take that personally.

I am sorry, but in reading the previous posts I agree 100% with L.I.T.

As she has said...we know what pain we caused...we are sorry...and we got a full dose of it as BS's....I dare you to tell me I wasn't hurt by that....and that's exactly what you infer by your quote above....

Because I or L.I.T. made poor choices at one time, we are evidently not allowed to feel pain or hurt?