I probably do come accross that way - as it's definately something I am still working on changing. I just hear alot of ME in you - and figure some of the things I have had to work on might help you too. I am sure there are a GREAT many MB's here who banged their head against a wall trying to get their points accross to me.

I certainly don't intend for them to come accross that way - but you are right - perception is everything - while I may not INTEND for them to come accross that way - they still do..so for me, I need to re-evaluate how I am trying to say what I am trying to say - not because I think you are right, but because your perception of it is what matters...how can I try and help someone if they percieve me as telling them what to do - I can't - unless I change how I am approaching them - like I did with Sprint, and like I obviously still need to work on within friendships or relationships like this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Always room to grow and room for improvment.

And I am DEFINATELy not a MC - so if your MC who knows you both better than I do - says it's okay - then stick with MC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just know in my relationship it definately didn't work that way. Well it did - but my methods of telling Sprint how NOT to LB was the problem and almost encouraged him to LB more to get me off his back.

I always consider how you feel...why - because I see so much of the pain and anger I had in your posts - I relate to them more than you will ever know - but I also know how it hindered Sprint and I...and how I had to take control of myself in order to get anywhere - independent on whatever Sprint did. Maybe it's because I can relate so much that my posts come accross as a "MUST DO" type of manner.

My apologies though for making you feel I wasn't listening...I guess I don't provide sympathy well enough...and I want you to know I sympathize GREATLY with your situation...I just prefer to give solutions that MAY or MAY NOT work...keep you on a goal and not on pity (once again not saying you are on pity - but I can see where some of your thoughts may lead you back to that cycle)

(((HUGS)))

This is interesting to me as it could have been written by Mrs. Wonk, too. I never thought that DS didn't value or understand your point of view. Rather, she was expressing her thoughts based upon what you wrote. As my wife has said similar things to me about being understood, specifically what kind of responses are you looking for?

WB-

I know I am working on what I can work on. Patterns of a lifetime do not change overnight. I can be controlling and am working on that, but it does not change that I need to feel my H empathizes. To me, understanding me= love (and big deposits).

Your W may not go about getting what she needs in the best way, but it does not change the need. Same as you and SF. Though you may recognize now you could have done things differently with Mrs Wonk, does not change you need SF. So, when she is controlling, maybe help her to understand what you need her to do differently so she can get her need for empathy met.

And, I would consider your own actions too. Your perception is that she is being controlling, but is she actually expressing something else entirely? Is there an alternate explanation for how she is acting that would not be that she is being controlling? Maybe she is not always doing this, but you interpret it this way.

Do you give her positive feedback when she does things right and to make it more likely you will get what you need too? You can't change her, but you can recognize her positive changes and show her you value them.

Point well taken. I just want her to love ME, for ME, and not because of some expactation of how I should act or do things. I do not want to continually feel measured. How should I convey this message?



Controlling is as controlling does. Or something like that. There may very well be an alternate ending, so to speak. While I may understand the underlying issue, her controlling behavior is still destructive.


I do need to do this more, Improving. I agree. I will add this to my daily notes to remember. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I am looking at his actions to make sure his words and his actions match because they did not before. As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words. His actions lately have really made me feel more reassured. That means a lot to me. Him not doing what he promised broke some of the trust I had been feeling. I feel like everything is very fragile right now and we need to be very cautious and careful of one another.

Not being available by phone is part of EPs. It is a simple thing to do that means a lot to me. He said he would have the phone on and didn't. He was unreachable which scared me. I do not want to feel that way anymore. He said he did not want to "bother". Well, this is one of those things that is a really big deal to me and he knows it. (If I said that I did not want to bother with SF, that probably would not go over well.) Him not having the phone on triggered a lot of my A feelings. And, I did not feel he respected my feelings because he said he did not "bother". If he can't be bothered to have the phone on (knowing how big of a deal this is to me and that he said he would), then how do I know he is willing to do any of the things necessary to R?

I am sure he is looking to my actions too.

I work on this quite a bit, but I admit I have a ways to go.

Improving - you said this - which is a GREAT point for Wonk to remember, but I want to ask you the same thing about your H - have you taken your own advice?

Hey!!! I'm perfect at this stuff, ya know?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As I said, for the most part, I agree that is not his goal. However, I do not agree the pointed remarks were innocently thrown in. I have hurt him terribly and he was feeling upset. He successfully hurt me back. He has said in the past he lashes out when trying to create space, so may well have been doing that. Yes, that is possible. If that is the case, I would expect him to tell me that what he did was not OK because it isn't, regardless of why he did it. And, I would ask that he work on this if he knows he does it.

A LB is a LB if the person receiving it sees it that way. He may not have purposely meant to hurt me, but my perception is that he did and that hurts like Hell. I do not want him to hurt me anymore.

DS-



This is what we had too. So, I am also a bit afraid to trust him because of this too.





No, he said he did not want to bother.

Right. The PERCEPTION hurts like hell. You created the perception. Not him. His actions were not right and you are more than right to call him on it. Whether or not he said comments that were to cause space or not, they were not ok. But, that doesn't mean he was trying to hurt you. Rather, he was trying to create space and the only way his brain could do it at the moment was by hurting you. Suttle difference, but very important. In my opinion, at least. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DS-



This is all I needed to know. I really appreciate your insight, but I also (like Sprint with the LBs) cannot be forced to reach the end point of seeing your viewpoint. I do consider very seriously what you say because you are further along in R and you and I are similar. It's not the message so much as the feeling you are trying to educate me and my way is wrong. I think if they were worded as suggestions, I might feel a bit differently.

I appreciate all your help. I am doing my best. I really am.

Sorry, this was in response to WB.

"Improving,

I wanted to share a little about what I see when I read your posts and some suggestions. If you said "XYZ" to your H, do you think he might respond the way you need him to? My experience has been ... I know each sitch is different, but maybe give it a try. It worked for me and it sounds like you and I are similar, so maybe it would work for you."


as opposed to:


"Don't ask him to stop LBing- it comes across as condesending and parently." To me, this sentence comes across as an order and I feel like a child-- which is exactly what she was telling me to avoid doing with Mr I.

I do not mind suggestions, but each of us approach our sitches a bit differently. DS and I post to each other a fair amount, so I chose to address this with her.

WB-



Do you think she may feel the same way? I would not be surprised if she did.

I bet she does love you for you, but that does not mean she does not have needs that she would like to have met (as do you). Maybe she does not express it well. Just because she is expressing a need does not mean you are always being measured.

But, as my MC said, we are to work on each other's ENs and give feedback as to how well the other is doing. Is it possible that because of your insecurities (you mentioned them before), you interpret feedback as criticism or failure? If you need it worded a different way, do you let her know? WB, I suspect a big issue in your M is the same as in mine. Your W is more verbal and open about her needs/feedback, yet you tend to not say how you are feeling as much and do not give as much feedback. Neither way is "right". But, I want to pose a point: How can you expect her to give you what you want if you do not tell her specifically what it is? She can't change and she cannot meet your needs if you do not give her feedback. I know this is part of what got me here.

M is a constant communication. It's also coming together and working through issues to come to compromises that make each other feel good. Have you read about POJA and do you use it?




I agree. So, since you cannot change her, but you can change you, what can you do about this? Have you told her she is coming across that way and given her a chance to discuss it with you? Have you told her how she can do things differently? Do you give her positive feedback if she does it right? Do you give her patience and help her work out the kinks? Do you give her much feedback? Does she know how you are feeling?

You are right. I do need to give better feedback. I want to do this and do it better. It's just new to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



Yes and no. I don't think about it, per se, but we do use it.



I'm feeling tired at the moment!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> No, I do need to express myself better.

DS-

Yes, I have been working really hard on this. For example, H has recently done quite a few things that made big deposits and I tell told him so. I have been thanking him when he does follow EPs. Does he take note, I do not know, but I have been making this a top priority.

Good Job!

This leads me back to your thread Wonk where I said get that EN list out and figure out what you want, so it gives your W something to do to help you heal...

WB-

Your suggestion is that he might have been doing it to create space. I agreed with you that he may have been doing it to create space. I said,"may".

Even if that were his goal, he knows me well enough to know that if he hurts me, I will back off. So, if he intended to get space, he had to hurt me first in order to get it. The hurt in that case would still be intentional.

Either way, I feel that his intention was to hurt me because the remarks were very pointed and specific. That is how I feel about it.

observation here...your H may think he DOESN'T know you anymore - the woman he knew and loved would have NEVER had an affair...you may think that he should know you well enough that he would know you would back off...but right now your H probably feels like he doesn't know you at all. I don't know this for sure - but it definately was that way with me and Sprint...and still is - we are learning about eachother all over again, as who we both became shocked us both.