WB-

I think we can all benefit from some respectful feedback.

Can you tell me the way you are using POJA with her? When was the last time you read it over? There are actual step-by-step instructions in one of Harleys books. I found it quite helpful.

WB-



and do the same for Mrs Wonk as she is probably needing this too. She may be further out from your A, but I bet she is still hurting.

Well, OK. I just know that the times I have done that were because I was desperate. I needed some breathing room and nothing else was working and sometimes stuff just popped out. The fact that I hurt Mrs. Wonk was never in my mind nor was it a desire. Did she feel hurt, yes. But, there is a distinction and it is up to you how you want to view it. Your perception is that he wanted to hurt you. Period. That's a very negative way of looking at it and certainly does not give him much benefit of the doubt nor compassion. He may have used hurtful comments to get something rather than just use hurtful comments for the sake of using them. It doesn't make it ok, one way or another. But, it certainly makes a difference as to how you view and approach Mr Improving.

that's what I wrote on his thread - that the two of them get out the EN form and get at it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DS- I see what you are getting at. I think he and I both have some of the feelings of now knowing one another. But, he has admitted purposely LBing to get me to back off.

It's like I said about Sprint - he didn't intentionally mean to hurt me - as much as he KNEW those things would hurt me - in a time of heated argument - they came out - and kept coming out - due to his hurt and blindness to see what those words did to me...until after the fact. I am guilty of doing the exact same thing.

I know Sprint never wanted to hurt me, and I certainly never wanted to hurt him - but our tongues do exactly that. We have sharp tongues him and I and use them in defensive situations...something we are both trying to change.

I know that for me, I have wanted to get away from conversations like never before. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Neither Mrs. Wonk or I do a very good job of making conversations safe for the other. When we do, I certainly can tell the difference. When we don't, well, I can tell the difference then, too - just not in a good way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes and Sprint purposefully LB'd to back off. Once he hurt me UNINTENTIONALLY - I wouldn't drop it...so he would try to get out of the situation by hurting me to get me to back off. Yes he shouldn't have hurt me - but I am just as much to blame for putting him in the uncomfortable situation which hurts him, of keeping the conversation going, telling him what he is doing wrong...I am so good at telling people what they do wrong - without meaning to...I did it to you...and I have improved alot! Imagine what poor Sprint went through during our conversations. If you are like me, then when you tell Mr. I he is lovebusting, he looks at it as you critizing him and telling him what he does wrong...and after your A he probably feels like he does nothing right. This is from what Sprint told me anyhow - that I always made him feel he did nothing right - but I realized it was HOW I talked to him. I set myself up for the hurt and expected him to change...instead I changed my approach...and funny - the way he reacts is different...so I controled the situation by changing myself and not expecting him to change.....

OK. No ganging up on the Wonk. I'm having a hard enough time trying to follow all of this as it is... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

lol I don't gang up Wonk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just think the EN form is a great place to start on your FUTURE and try to move away from the PAST.

WB-



Yes, it does. I do not feel good about being hurt by my H. But, there would be no way for me to know why he would LB me because Mr I would not bring this topic up.

I have considered what you are saying, WB, and he may well have done what he did to get me to back off. But, as I said, he knows me well enough to know what he needs to say to hurt me badly enough that I will back off. Did he consciously say to himself that he intended to hurt me? Probably not. But, he did know what he was saying would hurt me. So, to some extent, his goal was to hurt me so I would back off. Backing off may have been the ultimate goal, but to get there, he said things that were not OK. It is very subtle and we probably see it a bit differently. I understand what you are getting at.

Again, this is all supposition on our parts. If I want to know, I would have to ask my H because he generally would not start this type of conversation.

I look at it like this. I am co-dependent. I did all that I could for Mrs. Wonk. Look where it got me - her having an A. So, now when I feel criticized or that I am not up to par, what am I going to get out of that?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I know that my self-confidence has been torn to pieces. Sometimes, Mrs. Wonk does a good job of feeding that low self-esteem without even knowing it.

So?

WB-



It gets tiring being the only one to bring up upsetting topics. And, I get the label of the bad guy.

I told my H how I felt yesterday and today. I did not feel heard (he typed on the computer and talked with someone else when I was talking to him), valued, respected, etc. He LBed me. I am worn out and feeling very low right now. So, starting another conversation is not high on my list of things to do.

I was QUEEN of doing this to my H without knowing I was. Sheesh - I had an A, then proceed to tell him it's all because he wasn't meeting my needs, and because of the depression of my last surgery, and that he had ignored my cries for help...and if he had done things differently - we would be in a different place.

Yes there is some truth to this - as Sprint has accepted his role in the deteriorating marriage...but alot of it was more my COPING skills...when my needs weren't being met, when I hit a hard time with the loss of my uterus and didn't have his support - how did I react - how did I cope - I went into a self destructive coping mode...

But poor Sprint didn't see my A coming and it hit him hard, and the guilt he felt - he felt he did nothing right...then for months everytime he got mad at me or expressed his anger I tried to tell him MB's says we have to do it this way, or you can't act like that - or you should try this - all the while making him feel worse as he didn't know HOW to feel better, and he felt I was STILL critizing him...then when he finally "left" the marriage - it's all he could focus on - it was his NEGATIVE cycle - my constant critisizm on how he does things.

Since we have recovered again - in the first week, I started up again on how he should recover...and he stopped me in my tracks and said - we can't make this work unless you accept that my view is different than yours and I can't do it your way. I want this marriage, I love you and I want you...but you have to go on your journey and I have to go on mine, but we can do those side by side.

It hit home - my intellegent husband was back and I realized he was SOOO right. So I have never given him advice on how to recover again. We just focus on the here and now and are laying new floorboards on how to communicate, how to meet eachothers need - mostly making every attempt to make sure we do something, not because we want to, but because it's important to the other person

But we also make no selfish demands or expectations...as we put on so many of them before each of us became suffocated and couldn't be ourselves. Yes we can change - and we are - but we are also who we are - flaws and all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WB-



So you met all her needs the way she needed them to be met and she still had an A? That is odd. As are usually about un-met needs. Were there any that she said you were not meeting? As are not all one person's fault. The BS contributes to an environment that makes the A possible (as she did with yours). Have you considered how you did?





Again, I bet she feels the same way. Does she ever tell you you are doing a good job/making deposits, etc? Do you recognize it when she does?

I bet she is hurting much the same way you are and could use some positive feedback too. Remember her self-esteem took a beating too because of your A.

I need a break you too. I may be back later. Thanks for the food for thought <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I can understand that. Well, if he does bring it up, make sure that it remains safe for him to do so. Otherwise, he may not feel like doing it again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Here's my blunt truth - based off what i had to realize with Sprint and I.

I had an affair, mine was first. Sprint had an affair. Both of us had them for different reasons. Who's was more just? NEITHER. Did it hurt one of us more than the other because one happened before the other? NO Did it make us even? NO.

Why? Cause none of that matters. Sprint and I both caused eachother unbelievable pain and heartache through our actions -even though our actions may have been different and in different ways.

So in recovery we agreed we both hurt eachother, but not to compare hurts, but instead to work on what we can do in the future to NEVER again hurt eachother as we have in the past year...focus on the future not the past. It doesn't matter why or how we hurt eachother (to us anyhow) it matters that we DID hurt eachother and that we need to rebuild our marriage in a manner that that kind of hurt will never happen again. Will our marriage be hurt free - OF COURSE NOT - marriage has happiness and sadness - but will we respect eachothers differences, support eachother, and love eachother and not neglect eachother from now on? YOU BETCHA - without a doubt.

And this meant for BOTH of us - to let go of what eachother was or wasn't doing, to tuck it in the past and work on the REBUILDING. We didn't want to do patch jobs over damaged areas, we wanted a FRESH beginning, and that's what we are doing with our new skills. And when the past creeps up on us, which it does often, we don't let it win. We express the hurt, accept it, and refocus on the rebuilding.

This may not work for everyone, but I just see alot of unconstructive me me me me comments in BOTH your situations. It's complicated because you want to be able to act like the BS - YES - but you can't forget you guys are both WS's too!!!!!!! And in your spouses eyes - they still think of you as the WS!!!! Act accordingly! You can't just be the BS in this situation - you yourselves have alot to make up for.

and it's a LONG road to rebuild trust and relationships, but it can go faster if you just let the past rest.

Imp - you are in IC and you have mentioned MC...this is good - stick with it - get H into IC if you can as well.

Wonk - you said you are in IC - but never mentioned if you and Mr.s Wonk are in MC? If you aren't - get yourself into a good one. Not one that will make you focus on what you did wrong, but one that will help BOTH of you focus on laying new groundwork! One that will help you guys set HEALTHY boundaries and teach you how to communicate.

In BOTH your sitches I see EXACTLY what Sprint and I were stuck in - improper communication! Find a way out - but it may be you Mr.Wonk who has to take the reigns...and you Imp in your situation who has to take the reigns...you can't just wait on your spouse to agree - do it - learn to communicate based on your H's way of communicating - eventually he will learn yours - you too Mr Wonk - as hard as women are to figre out - don't try to figure her out - but try to learn how to communicate with her.

Anyways - that's just my 2cents........

Oh, please, please let Mrs. Wonk see this!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />