Melody, this was also true for me but in a different way: I had wrong perceptions about opposite sex friendships and deep settled personal “issues” (emotional baggage and personal weaknesses/vulnerabilities) from childhood trauma. My involvement with FOM was the ‘catalyst’, which ‘forced’ me (out of free will however) to go into IC and explore, resolve and address all my personal “issues”. This is the one, most important positive thing that have came out of this. I still have weaknesses/vulnerabilities (and maybe I always will), but at least I'm aware of those things now and have take pro-active steps to protect myself against my own weaknessess/vulnerabilities... And the most important thing is that I can't have a close opposite sex frienship with a man anymore, except if the person is a friend of both me, my H and our M.

I agree with this true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FL

I have to say that maybe you do not truly grasp what infidelity does to a trusting, stupid, lamb-to-the-slaughter BS.

It DEVASTATES us.The very MACHINES within us that generate trust, love, forgiveness, strength, self respect, lovability, faith, decency are all SMASHED beyond any ability to operate properly ever again.

In time we learn to assemble new machines from the components of the old but they will ever bear the scars and inhibitors of broken and bodged machinery.

I cannot relate to the death of a child like you and mel can, THANK GOD ! But i can relate to the deaths of parents, beloved relative s friends.

Death is not a DIRECTED act. It is not done AT a person unless is it a gesture suicide.

It is a random meteor hit. Utterly devastating but only explicable as an act of God.

Now if someone deliberately killed my friends or parents my distress would have been worse. Make the killer the person I trusted most in the world, and make them kill my parents out of sheer casual self-pleasure and we're getting close to the devastation of an affair upon a BS.

Now have them ask me to 'get over it' and see 'what good can come from it' and you see A FRACTION of the pain of infidelity betrayal on a loving BS.

We BS do not choose to mewl and puke our loss - we are not a uniformly miserable and depressive breed.

Our ability to trust, love, forgive, hope, expect and live HAVE BEEN KNOWINGLY DESTROYED by the people who were supposed to love us most.

YS God can do anything, but I see few exmaples of admittedly 'fully recovered' BS without any residual problems. Pep is one, perhaps.

Mel is WONDERFULLY recovered and lives aGREAT life with Mr Lane yet even SHE admits to a deep internal malfunction that may never be the same.

YES God can do anything but hoping God will restore such smashed units as we have within us is like praying God will regrow a severed leg.
YES He does perform such miracles but typically he teaches us to live around the disability.

FL, trust can be given, but it has to be given in accordance to the trustworthiness of the spouse. Trust has to be earned. For example, my H has demonstrated perfect trustworthy behavior since D-Day. I trust him now.

But, I will NEVER EVER blindly trust anyone again. I have learned that lesson. I trust him about 98% and still would verify if I felt a need. But, it always comes to back to this simple truth: trust must be earned.

True To Self and suzette

Yes Squid likes the new me. This has been all bout me changing to the convenience of Squid. As her friend said "I LOVE Bob now! maybe I should have an affair to get Dale to change !". They laughed. I didn't.

I liked the old me. I wasn't an unemotional monster but I am too soft now. I teared up at reading animal for sale ads in my local paper the other night.

Thats not even funny thats pathetic. its a symptom of my smashed emotional organs.

I pray for more recovery there.

Well, FL, I haven't heard of any spontaneous kidney regrowths recently! But you have a point. Nothing is impossible.

Perhaps we could break the problem down a little more. This is how the trust failure has worked with me...

In the beginning:

1. I judge that I am a worthwhile loveable person.
2. I judge that this person loves and values me.
3. I judge that this person cares about my safety.
4. I judge that I can trust this person.
5. I judge that I can let my guard down with this person.

Upon the revelation of infidelity, I realised that my spouse had not kept me safe, had exposed me to (and given me) STDs, had badmouthed me behind my back while telling me how wonderful I was. So now I think...

6. Perhaps my judgement is wonky.
7 I'm not worthwhile and loveable...enough.
8. I'm not worthy of respect.
9. Perhaps I saw love where there was none.
10. Perhaps I'm hopeless at judging people.
11. Perhaps anyone could take advantage of me, I'm so dumb.
12. I must have huge blind spots.
13. Perhaps I made a really bad choice of spouse.

Once you start doubting your own judgement, you're in trouble, because your judgement is what you base your path through life on. You begin to second-guess every relationship in your life, you begin to withhold yourself in case you're being 'taken' there too. If your marriage has been your gold standard for trust, as it is for most of us, then you have nothing to calibrate your trust judgements by. You've lost the belief that you have inherent worth for the WS. If you're already trust-impaired, with deep wounds from other relationships, then you have an even harder uphill struggle.

So the BS has to try to rebuild a sense of trust in their own judgement. Which is hard enough even if you retreat to a convent and deal only with 90-year old nuns. It's buggeringly difficult if you're trying to do it with the one person on the planet who is most skilled at deceiving you, who knows all your weak areas and blind spots better than anyone else, who has earned a PhD in you-deception.

So when that person says "I'm different. I've learned. I wouldn't do anything like that again. Look at the changes in me!", the BS brain doesn't say to itself "Excellent! Everything's hunky-dory, hurrah!" No, the BS brain says "Am I being spun? When I was being spun before, what were the signs? Can I detect those signs now? But I couldn't detect the signs before, why should I be any better now? What changes in the WS would convince me? But he/she hasn't exhibited any of those changes... Dive!Dive!Dive!"

You see how trust is a problem?

As I read this my heart just aches - cause I know Sprint probably feels very similarily - although now that he too has had an A, I think his understanding of being a WS has changed how he feels as a BS.

And even though I am a BS now too, it's not the same as what you guys go through. It hurt like hell yes, it angered me, I too was devestated...but I also knew that alot of it happened due to a chain of events that began with MY A, and so actually became disappointed in myself again. Of course Sprint is responisible for his actions, but ultimately this whole mess began when I couldn't cope with needs not being met and major changes to my life and began to act self destructive.

I look at my parents - now 8-9 years post A, and they would never go back. As painful as my Dad's A was to them, they are happier than they have been in 21 years...there is total honesty, transparency, constant change for both of them on how they communicate, how they relate...and they are very playful and in love. THAT is where I want to be in 8 years, that is my goal.

It's the main reason Sprint and I are starting fresh in a way - getting to know eachother again, learning to communicate again, forming a new relationship - as the old one was way to damaged, and neither of us ever want to go back to it.

Affairs suck for both the BS and for most WS's too.

Bob asked an interesting question.

FL

WHAT good has come out of your infidelity for your BH. ?

Wht is the answer?

TogetherAlone -

Excellent! And for me, this also carries over to other people. I find that I don't trust them either. Now that I see that my husband and best friend could stab me in the back while hugging me, I realize that others could too.

I'm constantly hyper-vigilant, listening to their words, but also watching for lies. It is crazy-making.

It has been over 2 1/2 years for me. I keep thinking that time will change me.

But they can never ever fill the huge hole in their hearts from losing their child. That can never ever go away. They will wake up every day and the first thought of that dead child will take their breath away. Like a hammer to the chest. They will never ever be the same again. Never. They have lost something with the death of the child that they will NEVER get back.

It is the same being a victim of an affair. You are never the same. You have lost something that you cannot get back when the person you loved and trusted the most betrayed you. You learn never to fully trust again. You learn the depths of cruelty of which others are capable. That is is a huge shock whose knowledge can never be erased.

Now, you can use this experience to help others, and that is certainly positive, but being changed for the worse it never positive no matter how you spin it.

I think maybe what FL was saying that good things can be created out of bad experiences. No GOOD came out of the affair, nothing was good about an affair...but good changes grew.

As a WS and a BS, I hate that my A EVER happened - but it DID, I can't take that away. So instead of saying it was bad bad bad, and putting it away, I say - it was an awful thing to do, but how can I change from this experience - how can I ensure I learn from this mistake.

FOr Sprint, I think as a BS, he is looking at that too - this sucks - my W destroyed me - but what can I learn from this. But at the same time you are right, both of us may constantly trust our judgement from now on, wonder if we are being lied to.

For me as a BS - albeit a little different - Good that came from Sprints affair and seperation...I realized I do not NEED sprint. And the NEEDYNESS was holding us back - smothering him, smothering me. I realized life would be great with or without him. I learned that I LOVE him and I CHOOSE to be here recovering, not because I need to, but because I want to. I learned more about my independence by his A. Those to me are very good things to learn. Albeit I wish I could have learned them some other way.

What a great thread...I will be sure to go over this with Cruise!

I am firmly on the side of NOTHING GOOD comes out of the A. If you believe it was the catalyst to do something positive you had not previously done -- I say...you could have taken that positive step without the A. Perhaps you did not spend enough time understanding your needs, or what options were available to you (I am in the same boat).

Todd

Todd, as much as my post sounds like I contradict this, I agree with you. All I am saying is that now I am aware of all these things and making those changes. I wish the A's had never happened in my marriage - I have a scarred marriage...I wish I could have figured out things without the A's...but I can't CHANGE the A's - they happened. Neither Sprint nor I can go back and take back anything we have done. So from that - how can we change, learn and grow NOW. A's are VERY unessessary - that is for sure, as those changes can take place without A's...but when an A happens, we can't say - well I wish it hadn't happened, you should have made those changes, - IT did happen and IT sucks...but we can't change that...all we can do is learn and grow from the fact that it DID happen.

Sometimes I don't make any sense lol - maybe this is one of those times...rambling woman I am <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No, anything is not possible. That is unrealistic, FL. We are limited by reality. Folks do not grow back lost limbs, dead children do not come back. A rape cannot be undone.

One is never the same after a traumatic shock and they shouldn't be. Life changes us. And sometimes it's not for the better. It may make you feel better to imagine that one can walk away better after such assaults on one's soul, but it is simply not realistic, nor is it mentally healthy.

maybe it is just wishful thinking on me to want to believe that total healing can include getting rid of all dead cores. maybe i need to believe it. i would so love to hear what RIF would say about it. Maybe I am being foolish. and if i am, it would be good for me to open my eyes

FL I really believe it is true that you are avoiding looking straight at the consequences of infidelity.

They are as real as road accident inuries and just as permanent.

God can do anything He chooses, but I do not EXPECT Him to restore my broken machines any more than I would expect a severed limb to be regrown.

I used to be trusting of others. Now I am not. My FWW will never get my full trust again, like she had before her A. That was a single offer given at our wedding, it has expired now. My FWW was able to have a fantasy relationship, she was able to have SF with a new person. She was able to experience the new relationship high. She took a dump on our marriage, and has destroyed something in me that I was always proud of. I know I will never get that part of myself back. It is like loosing an arm...It's gone forever. After D-Day she gets a new husband who made all the changes she always wanted. She got to get the things fixed in the marrege she always wanted and I get a FWW who cheated on me. I am broken...she is reborn.

I know I am a better person. I am in better shape then I ever have been. I eat healthy and excercise. I dress better and am more active socialy. I treat her like she deserved to be treated before the A. But it comes down to the fact that I am married to a person who cheated on me. That will never change.

Ok, I agree that there is nothing good about having an affair.

However, the "event" shook us both up enough to correct some ugly behaviors we'd both developed.

Of course, we're both left with scars and pain. That doesn't go away. But we can choose to decide if we are going to let this defeat us.

There was a time when I believed I had done irreparable damage to my soul. But I don't believe that any more. I had a choice as to whether I would remain broken or would I learn and grow.

My wife still feels the pain. She stills struggles to trust. But she is overwhelmingly a better person. The rose colored glasses came off. She took her head out of the fantasy world. She doesn't take things for granted any more.

I certainly learned alot about who I was and who I have become. I know who I want to be.

Sure, we sometimes look back and lament the loss of innocence.

I wish we had gotten where we are without having to have endured the pain of the affair.

But I have serious doubts that we ever would have.

Low

I am broken...she is reborn

Wow hemi. Way to summarise.

Has anyone answered Bob's question?

FYI: the delay in my response was due to a mtg that i had to attend!!! looks like i missed a bunch, i'll try to respond to this all now... (although work is pressing in on me too, so i'm going to talk fast)


not meaning to give a flipent answer here, but basically, the new me.

maybe i don't bob.

but then again, maybe i do. can you compare it to a child who puts their trust in their parents to care and love them only to be neglected and verbally abused along with some minor physical abuse. and then can you add to that a child who's older brother decides to use her for sexual pleasure. can we relate the damage done to that child to the damage done to a BS?

cuz let me tell you something about child abuse...
It DEVASTATES us.The very MACHINES within us that generate trust, love, forgiveness, strength, self respect, lovability, faith, decency are all SMASHED beyond any ability to operate properly ever again.

actually i agree with everything except the "beyond any ability to operate properly ever again". if i include that part, then i cannot accept the miracle God has done in me Bob.

Our ability to trust, love, forgive, hope, expect and live HAVE BEEN KNOWINGLY DESTROYED by the people who were supposed to love us most. our parents.

do you think i am relating correctly or not?

i was thinking RIF was one too.

that was extrodinarly in-sensitive to put it mildly. i do hope you found/made an opportunity to tell squid how you felt when that was said.

i think that is the point of all this. my reason for staying in this discussion is to help you change some of your internal thinking about how much damage can or cannot be healed. because there is the answer, pray for more recovery and keep praying and keep expecting God WILL answer your prayer.

this is getting too long and i have not even gotten to the other posts yet!!!

together alone, your post is very enlightening, and i need to take more time to reflect on it.

my knee jerk thoughts are... i never had this:

In the beginning:

1. I judge that I am a worthwhile loveable person.
4. I judge that I can trust this person.
5. I judge that I can let my guard down with this person.


I do believe I had this:
2. I judge that this person loves and values me.
3. I judge that this person cares about my safety.

but i see myself waverling... i have trust issues too, due to the neglect from my spouse in my marriage, from a person i thought loved and valued me, cared about my safety. i think any S that underestimates the impact neglect in a marraige can do is not openning their eyes.

NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO CHEAT!!!!!

but he broke vows too!!! when he choose to distance himself from me because he was unhappy. HE BROKE HIS VOW TO GOD AND ME.

i'm guessing that is not going to go over well and i seem to be having a stronger and stronger reaction to this thread now the more i type.

since i didn't start out with blind trust, i did not have any of this happen.

6. Perhaps my judgement is wonky.
10. Perhaps I'm hopeless at judging people.
11. Perhaps anyone could take advantage of me, I'm so dumb.
12. I must have huge blind spots.

but i had a HUGE amount of this:
7 I'm not worthwhile and loveable...enough.
8. I'm not worthy of respect.
9. Perhaps I saw love where there was none.

and as i fought off those terrible feelings, feelings i had my whole life from my parents, now coming from my spouse, and as i fought to reject those thoughts. i snapped and concluded...

13. Perhaps I made a really bad choice of spouse.

NO THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO CHEAT!!!!!

because all i did was screw myself up worse than i already was.

and now i take a deep breath and say, but FL, all of what you are saying was not really the case when you were engaged. yes he was critical, but we were not even married yet, if i was that unhappy, why didn't i just break off the relationship. and my answer... i was such a screwed up person already. so it was not my H's actions that caused my character deficiency. ok.... it was my parents!!!! oh good now i can blame them....

but all i'm doing here folks is going in circles. admit it, anyone reading this must be dizzy by now!!!

i realize now more than ever, i never had a trust foundation.

at age 42, i had to find my trust in myself for the first time. and guess what i learned. that it has nothing to do with what my past anymore. it is all about what i choose for myself now. and trusting in God is manditory. and if you have that, nothing else matters.

now tell me this, if i can recover from having no trust in the goodness of life due to parents and a big brother that abused me, why again should i go along with any BS's thoughts that they can NEVER heal all the hurt/damage.

For my own recovery, i REFUSE to believe that.

Melody, first and most importantly, i am very sorry for the lose of your son. i know too well how horrible that is. our daughter died very shortly after birth. i used to try to discount my pain because surly losing a child after raising them for a while must be even worse. i just don't know anymore. i do know my heart physically aches sometimes, like right now, when i think about how badly i wished i could of had any time with her. i didn't get to even hold her until she was gone. i bearly saw her because she was transferred to another hospital, my husband went with her. i had to stay because i had a fever and could not be around her anyway. (there was an infection in the water bag)

it is true, parents lose something with the death of the child that they will NEVER get back not here on this earth anyway.

i don't think that is comparable to infidelity. death is final on earth. however, a recovering marriage is far from death.

i fear i typed too fast and went off the road a bit here and there. i wonder if i should re-read this and do some editing. instead i have decided to close with.... please know, i do not think i have all the answers, not even close.

i need to re-read all this and truely reflect on it more.