** BH imagines Bob galloping around with cape and mask on black steed **

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> BH, I like your sense of humor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Suzet!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> it's what gets me through the bad patches <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> !!

Suzet: do you have flashbacks? If so were they worse right after DDay?
JE

" How Affairs Change People"...I don't post on this forum very often as my sitch has pretty much run it's course...I have thought about this topic and wanted to post how my STBX's affair has affected me, my son, our grandchildren in the aftermath...previous to STBX's A we were a tight knit family.. son and STBX worked together at STBX's business...STBX and I instilled morals, family values in our son which resulted with him marrying a wonderful woman who is a great wife and mother...her parents along with our family celebrated every occasion together.. our granddaughters spent at least two weekends a month with STBX and myself sharing family fun times...daughter-in-law's parents spent most winters together with our family in Florida...taking the girls to attractions, playing on the beach, great family time with both sets of grandparents... then the bottom drops out...son is heartbroken, no more family get togethers...mom and dad arrive for Christmas at different scheduled times to spend time with grandchildren...son cannot understand what happened to his father who seemed to have the same standards and morals he was taught from an very young age...he sees his mother working hard to try to repair the marriage but his father continues to lie, cheat, and hurt the ones he was supposed to love...his father is now drinking excessively and the OW he is with breaks his son's heart...she is from the other side of the tracks...finally after several tries at reconciliation mother has to tell son she can do no more and is filing for Divorce...son tells his mother he understands but wants to be there for his Dad when he self distructs... mother tells son she understands and would not expect any less as I have raised you well...I advise daughter-in-law to stand back and let her husband interact with his father without interference...she replies she will but when it comes to her kids that is when she will step in...I agree.. I warn her that son's father will wind up hurting him but she will need to be there to pick up the pieces...and my prediction was right on the money...you see my son's has boundaries and he could only tolerate STBX's lifestyle for so long and then pulled the plug...so sad that things had to end this way...I am posting because this is the snowball effect on a family and an affair...now on to my granddaughters...they were 3 and 5 when this mess started..they are now 5 and 8...the first few times they came up for their sleepovers sans grandfather...they cried.. I was the one left to dry their tears...the walk away spouse does not get to see the aftermath in his wake...now the 8 year old is asking questions as to why her grandfather left... I again have to gently deal with those difficult questions...she plays with a little girl at school whose parents have Divorced...her little friend told her that they were Divorced because Mommy and Daddy fought all the time...my granddaughter then asks me if that is the reason why her grandfather left...did you have a big fight?...this conversation transpires when both girls are snuggled on either side of me in bed.. the 8 year old breaks down crying stating...I am so scared.. sometimes Mommy and Daddy have agruments and I am worried they will get Divorced too...just about broke my heart... I explained that sometimes everyone has disagreements but that does not mean that Mommy and Daddy do not love each other and that they loved them both dearly and not to worry about that... again folks this is the snowball effect of the breakup of a once loving caring family...today my son is a great father and husband...he starts every conversation about great his girls are...I am just there to love them all and offer support in any way... I recently got a puppy so that now when the girls visit it takes their minds off what once was and now this house is filled with laughter and giggles once more...for me I will never be so trusting again...I have tried to move forward with my life but will never allow myself to be hurt in this manner ever again...it has been a long tough road but I am concentrating on me now and my wonderful family and that gives me great joy...a few days ago my eldest granddaughter learned to jump off our pool's diving board for the first time with my coaching... the thrill and sense of acomplishment for her said it all...I would like to leave you all with this quote...

Cowardice asks the question - is it safe?
Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
But conscience asks the question - is it right?
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular; but one must take it because it is right -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

My daily thoughts are constantly of my family….especially my beautiful granddaughters…in years to come as they grow into beautiful young woman the legacy I want to leave for them is to set the example as my mother did for me. “Mammy you did what was right!”

Justempty, I can still clearly remember what happened, but I don’t have flashbacks out of the blue anymore. It stopped after I received IC and confronted my abusers. And no, the flashbacks didn't become worse after DDay. (I assume you’re talking about the DDay of my EA). At that time (DDay) I was already in IC for a while.

Wow, NewOutlook - you have hung in there and did the right thing. You explained the family fallout very well also.

thanks Believer...I appreciate that especially coming from you... I have logged on here ocassionally to follow a few stories and have read your latest kaffule with your STBX...once Divorce is filed everything seems to turn ugly...I have been over two years trying to settle out of court with STBX and his response is the ole bury your head in the sand syndrome and maybe everything will go away... he is in the throes of a deep mid life crisis...once a person who had to control everything in his life he now knows he has lost control of me , my son and does not know how to deal with it all...I just hope he seeks professional help before it is too late...I realized early on in the game that the only one I had control of was me...and I had to detach from the drama and move on...this has enabled me to concentrate on getting "Me" back..and it is a nice place to be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

NewOutlook -

I'm finally happy again, but haven't done as well as you with the family. WH takes OW to all of the family events, and I'm left out.

But I am hoping to either get a settlement agreement this weekend, or serve him the D papers this weekend.

I agree with the other's that I am more untrusting of the world,my innocence and happiness are gone.Not that I won't be happy again but not in the same ways that a committment in marriage and a loving,intact family gave to me.Even if I were to remarry,it is not the same.It will never be with the father of my children or the one I knew and loved longest.Although I will never go back to a life with my STBXWH.I am so supremely glad he is not in my life anymore in that role however.I had to let that dream go,long ago.

I feel scarred.I am.Having that kind of horrifying pain in your life is not something you will ever forget.You may survive but then Holocaust survivors do the same,victims of sexual abuse too.Dealing with D as a child and now also as a BW.I am more cynical.But then I always was a little.

But,overall,I haven't changed.Haven't had any epiphany.I am still me with all the same morals,beliefs,feelings,desires and strengths.I came through this trauma not unscathed but I will go on.As we all do.

O

There is something really disconcerting about this thread, that is, we BS's have to make some questionable mental adjustments in order to sustain our "new" relationship with our formerly Wayward Spouses.

I have fought the very same emotions as all of you. I was betrayed three times... the first an EA only 3-4 years into our marriage. I didn't even know about it until a couple of years ago, when I installed a phone recorder to catch then WW in her "last" PA/EA. Now FWW says although they were just friends over the last 25 years, it is/was still a "connection" that has lasted nearly as long as our marriage.

No wonder my W and I have had such a stormy relationship, where she continued to look outside the M for ???someone to meet some of her EN's??? No wonder I have always felt a void in our marriage. No wonder SF has been less than satisfactory for me for all these years. My W has always been in search of "Mr. Wonderful" and has cultivated interest in herself from other men. Even at 52, she is drop dead gorgeous, and has always been one to attract attention from men. It would take her very little effort to make the attention more than just passing...

So with all the talk of the Post A relationships being hinged on an altered way of thinking in approaching and interacting with our formerly wayward spouses, I can't help but think it is problematic in several ways.

My own situation has required that I just "accept" that there are some piccadillo's that my W has that I will have to learn to live with in order to forge further into recovery.

Each of us has had to sacrifice something of our deepest "self" in order to get to where we are in recovery. Some of this appears to have to be permanent. Will time erase some of these "mind-sets" we've acquired, in order to recover our M's?

The BS and the WS come "together" from so far apart, it's a wonder there is ever a reconciliation. Speaking for me, and even at my advanced age (LOL), I can still remember how exciting it is to have those feelings of "falling in love". Now the last time I did that was in 1972, with my Wife. My W, on the other hand, has fallen in "love" at least three times since, that I know of. But has she "fallen" back in love with me? How will I ever know. If my love for her is the "mature", long time relationship kind of love, will her love for me be "new", or will it fall into the less exciting catagory of "long term". And why wouldn't she pursue a "new" kind of love with me? Why wouldn't she take the same kind of flirtation and coy actions towards me that she would apply with an OM, either on-line or in person? Why would she "allow" herself to fall back into a stable, perhaps boring, or at least less-exciting-than-an-affair relationship? Co-dependency? Safe? Stable? Predictable? Because it's the "right" thing to do?

I think that most BS's way over-estimate how much the WS will bring back to the marriage in recovery, and when that realization hits home, the BS is really, really let down. I think in 99% of recoverys, the BS is less than satisfied with the WS's efforts to make the marriage as exciting and titillating as we BS's perceive the A must have been. The excitement and enthusiasm cannot be equal to that an affair brings them. I think that many of us still feel like we were "settled for", rather than elevated to Number 1 and kept on that pedestal.

Affairs take so much out of us. They are destructive in every way. No wonder Adultry is one of the Ten Commandments, as only God could know how much damage could be rendered by affairs. I believe it changes the BS in many ways, and unfortunately, I think they force us to compromise many of our "beliefs" we have held for a lifetime. Most of us said "if my spouse ever has an affair, I'll leave 'em immediately". Look how many times that has not been the case. And I think that these things we compromise within ourselves make us a little more than just sad, for that losss, of innocence, of standards, of who we once were, and what we once brought to our marriages.

These posts have been very insightful, and have given me cause to reflect on my on situation a lot. I'm currently in an "up" position on the rollercoaster of recovery, and "thinking" things will continue to improve, but I'm not quite sure at what cost. And it make take several years to find out if the price was worth it. Affairs suck!

Best wishes,
SD

edited to say: I posted this a while back on a different thread, but it seems to apply somewhat to this thread as well. Hope you don't mind a "rerun"....

Believer...from what my sources tell me the fallout between son and his father was son's disgust with OW and all her baggage..OW did not even own a car when STBX hooked up with her at a bar...she has three problem children under 16 and here is my son a responsible husband and father looking at his father like he has lost his mind...( well not to far off the mark there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />).. he sees his mother struggling to make ends meet as his father has drained all the bank accounts and is not suppling any form of maintenance to his mother...sees his father playing every dirty trick in the book to avoid finalizing Divorce but yet his father buys a house and claims his income is under 10k a year...and the worst hurt of all..my son struggles financially to make ends meet... he is a hard worker.. has never asked for any help and always made his own way.. and he sees his father handing this golddigger OW and her family the funds that should be going to him and his mother...spending like there is no tomorrow...I am a tigger when it comes to my family and would rather loose my right arm than to see any of them in pain...STBX's head is totally up his a$$ on all accounts...so for now I guess I won't be seeing OW and STBX at any family functions in the near future...son has made it perfectly clear OW and her children is off limits to his family...good luck with your settlement Believer...I will be doing the happy dance once mine is complete <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My WH's affair changed my children. They were used as camoflage to make WH massive amount of time spent with OW appear harmless. Children aren't stupid. They knew what was going on and they suffered for it. They knew about Papa's dirty secret from Mommy and the questioned their own loyalty for Mommy because they were afraid to tell her. They were robbed of their innocence and several happy years of their childhood.

The affair initially changed me from being a confident, passionate, charismatic, successful, attractive woman to a depressed, anxious, shattered, nervous wreck. I am getting better now. The old me is returning, but will never be the same. There are some permanent damages, I'm sure, but I hope to be able to make up for that. I hope to gain some wisdom and grace from this all. I have a new appreciation for true friendships. I am growing spiritually.

The affair changed my H. It changed him from a loving, responsible father and husband, from an honest man of integrity to a sneaky liar and selfish cheater.

No signs of metamorphosis on the part of my WH.

It does inspire hope to read stories of others though.

Lost, my FWH's A changed my children too. In fact, right now our biggest hurdle is overcoming oldest DD's loyalty to the FOW--I'm the "bad guy" for taking away her "best friend"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> DS has become beligerant, has no respect for his father at all. And both of our older children have come to completely diregard everything they've ever been taught about sexual and emotional purity.

Is it any wonder this is a problem that is "handed down" to future generations?

Kind of an afterthought after re-reading this thread in its entirety, but this whole experience has changed my FWH too, and I'm not quite sure it's for the "better". I used to love his upbeat approach to life. While that's still there, it's buried underneath the guilt that has had him paralyzed for nearly six months. He never believed he was capable of infidelity--never even considered himself vulnerable. But he was. He quit working on us, started feeling that I wasn't working hard enough to make him happy, and that was the beginning of the end, so to speak. When he allied himself with someone who was already miserable with her own life, the self-pity rubbed off on him and he ended up thinking he'd be better off totally alone in this world without a soul to rely on than to be with me. Realizing he'd sunk THAT far has altered his entire way of life. He used to be a bubbly, outgoing, funloving, sweet guy. I don't know for sure but I think FOW kept that part of him.

CKW,

Well at least you are in recovery now.
Steve Harley told me that the best thing that parents can do for their child is to live a happy and fulfilling marriage. I sure hope that things will get better for your children.

(((((CKW))))))

Our actions do speak a lot louder than words, expecially with our chidren. Despite this, it might do good for your husband to speak to your daughter and let her know that OW abused her trust in the very worst way and that she will never be half the woman you are. You might try talking to your son and letting him know that his father hurt you in the very worst way that a man could hurt his wife, BUT he is taking responsibilty for that and is doing everything in his power to make up it. That is a powerful message...No matter how bad your mistakes are, you always have to eventually take responsibility for them, and there IS forgiveness.

I wish you and your family a speedy recovery and a bright new future.

Lost, you're right, we are in recovery, and for now we're just trying to give the kids a stable home so we can work toward the future. Thanks for your concern. I hope one day you're in this boat too.

My son and I have had that "respect your dad's choices NOW even if you can't respect his choices THEN" talk, and while my son does know that his father is at least to be commended for doing everything he can to try to make amends, it's not something that is coming easy. Fifteen year old boys are a hard sell. Thirteen year old girls are about as hard, especially when they've learned that it's ok to keep secrets from Mom and that having grownup friendships and grownup conversations is FUN. Mom is boring and can't be trusted now, especially when she takes the fun away. And when she's been told that all men are horrible sex-crazed beasts who can't be trusted, well, it's kind of hard for my husband to have ANY discussion with her without her exploding. Ah well, I suppose that's life.

Off to family counseling for us...but yep, we're in recovery. Unfortunately my son won't be at home too much longer so our time to heal as a family is dwindling.

Sorry, just having a bad day today.

Discovery day was only six weeks ago, but w/h is more subdued now. He is polite to me, and has dropped his outward anger, but there is a sadness about him. He is the happiest when he is hunting and talking with people. I know he is searching for something to fill the ache and sorrow that is left behind after the EA. He accepts my cuddling in bed, but I feel he is still holding back, nursing unsaid thoughts that are too painful to express.

His EA has left me more aware of what my priorities are in life. I realize that it is dangerous to our marriage, not to actively attend to conflicts and to bury problems and act if they don't exist. I ignored the trouble signs of our marriage, thinking that my marriage vows, "for better or worse," meant that my husband would never stray, regardless of how bad our marriage was.
I am now wiser, less trusting, and grateful for what I have. I know I have to work at making my marriage work, but for right now, saving my marriage is a one man's show, with me in charge.
I watch my husband in sadness as the days go by, praying that he will show outward signs of love for me.
I live with hope, just like most b/s, for the day that our marriage and our love is fully restored, just as god had intended years ago when we were married but also know the reality is that I must also prepare for the possiblity of life without him.

I did not see this thread when it first came up. Excuse me for interrupting its current course, I am commenting on bOb’s and Suzets initial conversation.

The BS death and WS growth issue really hits a nerve for me—I am the FWW, but I can’t say that I feel like a new shiny person.

Yes, I have experienced a lot of growth. I certainly feel like a very different and better person. But of COURSE I am a better person—how could it have gotten much worse? When you have been lying to your trusted, intimate, dependent team member and stealing time and love—you can only go up from there.

The same sad change you BSs have described has occurred in my BS. (I saw an old photo of him before D-day, he had a sort of sparkle in his eye. I cried when I noticed it--it is gone now.) I have stolen an innocence from him. Like a form of rape. It is really disgusting, and it is very painful to accept. And the worst part is I, ME, I caused that pain!

Lately, I have had a lot of trouble with my own regret.

I am so angry that I chose the course I did. I keep wishing I could take it back. Although I have become a better person—I didn’t have to do it by hitting the bottom first and dragging other people down with me. I could have done it by facing the problems in my marriage or leaving.

But I didn’t. And I have to carry that. And to live with the time I have lost and the place I have put us.

I am even further discouraged by hearing that some of you old timers have never truly recovered trust.

So now I know that I have truly killed something--an intimate valuable thing.

I hate it that I can’t make it better. I can’t take it away for him. I can’t heal it. That truly hurts so much to understand just how permanent the damage I have done is. That is just so sad and so damn frustrating!

Isn't there anything that can be done??

Ahuman, trust CAN be recovered; it just takes a LOT of effort and commitment on the part of both marriage partners. It takes transparency on your part and total openness on the part of the husband you hurt. Radical honesty is willing to sacrifice momentary discomfort for the greater gain of the relationship by realizing that pain caused by the truth is far less damaging than pain inflicted by dishonesty and withholding what the BS considers to be vital information. TELL him how you feel. TELL him what you just told us.
None of us can say whether that "sparkle" in his eye will ever come back, but it's up to you to make him feel secure and loved. No, not just loved--cherished. The way you'd cherish a priceless family heirloom, because that's what he is. NO, you can't take it back. You can't make it better. You can't heal it. But you can help him heal, you can plant seeds of respect and dignity and honor in his heart and you can water them gently but boldly so those seeds grow.