Well, Patriot...

Since you never started your "spin off" thread, I decided I would take the initiative.



Although this would obviously vary from case to case, I would contend that pressure by the WS (and others, too) for the BS to "get over it" would probably slow the process a bit.



Is it healthy to live scared and hurt from it forever? How long is forever, Patriot? Just for the sake of argument, let's say it's been, oh, about 8 1/2 months. Is that forever? What does feeling the hurt and pain and then moving on, as you suggested, look like? I think it looks like progress. If progress is being made, isn't that moving on, in a sense?



While those are all very crucial and important steps towards recovery, taking responsibility also means being willing and able to identify and correct the issues that brought you to have an A.

Again, for the sake of argument, let's say one of the issues that brought you to have an A was conflict avoidance...if a WS (or FWS) has not dealt with this issue, I would extend that perhaps these two topics you speak of (the BS's time frame in Recovery and the time frame of the WS's taking responsibility) could be directly related.

If the WS is unwilling or incapable of resolving their conflict avoidance issue, how would it affect the BS feeling safe to proceed with Recovery?

If the core issues that existed before the A are still present, would that not hinder or slow the process?

How long, in your opinion, should the BS be allowed to heal or grieve before labeling it "living in the past"? Keep in mind that what may be the past to the WS is very much the present for the BS, meaning that the WS knew about the A for longer than the BS.

Froz, I realize this was for Pat but am wondering if you two are still in MC? Sorry short term memory loss on my part. Pat, are you in IC? I sense quite a bit of anger from both of you and understandable if the issues are not being dealt with head on. Pat just so you know many of my fears are directly related to my H's unwillingness to open up to me about his last A. This leaves me feeling quite vulnerable because I don't really know what that one was about or who the OW was. It left me feeling powerless. We are trying to recover but the speed of it will be hindered until he is willing to deal with these things head on. I continue to pray for the two of you.

Not that anyone would know.... but I am in the other room you know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


ok. then when is it ok for the WS to try and get the marriage to move forward? When does 'get over it' really mean the WS is trying to minimalize the past and when does it mean the BS is living in the past? I wonder if 'get over it' is a BS rebelling against the WS for trying to move the marriage forward? If the BS is in the grieving process, when is it ok for the BS to stay there or the WS to help the BS out of there. Is that ever ok?

I am sure time is a big factor in all this... and no one seems to be able to move that around at their whim.



minus the sarcastic reference to 8 1/2 months(and the obviousness of who it applies too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) I DO think progress is moving on. It is not stagnant. Stagnant is not progress. Progress is moving on. Feeling and moving on would be getting the feelings out in a healthy way and then having less feelings over it. I didn't say that like I wanted, but I hope someone understands what I mean.


I will agree with this. I try to practice it, in fact.


Actually, while I agree that the WS needs to take responsibility for their actions and that THAT time-frame needs to be as short as possible(so the WS can then focus on helping the BS heal and healing themselves as soon as possible) You first part does not address what I really asked. From your statement "the BSs timeframe for Recovery" is something I am interested in. How long should that be before it is deemed unhealthy behavior on the part of the BS? Remember, this is all in the context of both partners committing to keeping the marriage.


I will stipulate that if the WS can not or will not change the behaviors that lead to the A, then Recovery is probably an exercise in futility.




this is precisely my question. When. Can one even put a timeframe on these things? No one told me to greive for my Mother for 4 weeks and then pull my head out of my [censored] on it(although one really mean girl did use, "at least I have a Mom" in a verbal fight in 5th grade... I actually laugh at that now because that is just crazy to me. Who says that?).

Anyway.. where as I think it is good and healthy to step through the greiving process, I think it naive and careless to just 'think' you will do the right thing to stay away from unhealthy prolonging of it without being at least mindful of the fact that it is possible to 'live in the past' and be further damaged by that behavior.

I certainly try not to be so naive anymore.

And sorry.. I could not give you a time in months or years or anything. You basically asked the same question I asked on the when part... and if I knew for sure, well... I wouldn't be posting about it here. At least not inquiring.

People have said 2 years. Maybe that is a good guess. I know there are posters here that say DDay + 3 years is as bad as DDay.

I am not in IC

We are in MC.

I am not angry. Not even a little. I don't think she is. She likes to debate with me sometimes.

This may or may not be one of those times.


As far as dealing with issues, we had a conversation about an elephant last night. I thought it was productive. When she and I talk it is like those old salad mixers my mom had. really slow to turn at the start... but once you got it going it just spins and spins. Kinda hard to get the mixer spinning with jobs, kids and obligations. Not that I mean to make excuses.

I really don't mean to.

Yes, and isn't that kind of odd that we either don't have the time or the inclination to talk to each other face to face?




How can you move forward when there is so much in the past that hasn't been dealt with? This factor kind of makes it the present, you know.



I wonder if "get over it" is really the WS being unwilling or unable to deal with past issues and hoping they will simply go away, hindering the marriage from moving forward.
Is THAT ever okay?



Why are you putting such an obvious time frame on me? You haven't exactly named your time frame, but it is obvious that you are impatient. Geez, you got 1 1/2 years to destroy me. Could I at least have that long to recover from it? Keep in mind that Personal Recovery and Recovery in the marriage are two separate things. I will grow and change, regardless of what you do. We can grow together or we can grow apart. If Recovery of the marriage is what you are interested in, you can't simply skip over the steps that you don't like and expect to make significant progress.





Progress is dealing with the past so that you are ABLE to move on. Why do I suddenly feel like I need to apologize for having feelings?




You may agree, but your behavior would suggest otherwise.
As far as how long should that be before it is deemed unhealthy behavior? Again, why are you putting a time frame on this? Give it to me straight...how long do I have, in your mind, to heal? If I am being given a time frame, before being deemed "unhealthy" by you...I'd like to know what it is.




I think you may have just answered all of your own questions with this statement.



Then why in the world are you suggesting that I do it?




I think it naive and careless to avoid dealing with the past so you are not further damaged by that behavior. That, in my opinion, is an unhealthy prolonging. Which, by the way, kind of makes it the present, rather than the past...doesn't it?

Yes, I am.




I thought it was like pulling teeth. I don't care to repeat what I had to do to get us there. I have already explained to you that, IMO, your willingness to deal with the past and face conflict is a necessary factor. I need you to WANT to do it. Sure, it isn't fun...I know that. It isn't fun for me, either. But, as I said I am willing to and WANT to do it because I know that there are walls that exist between us because of it. I may not want to do it just for the sake of doing it, but I very much want to tear down the walls. If that is what it takes to tear them down, then I do want to do it. Why don't you?

Why do you want to keep us stagnant and then blame me for not being able to move forward? That is the source of my anger. I have been very patient for a long time on this. Your lack of patience with me is frustrating. You hold all the keys, but you are unwilling to try a few of them and open the door.

I promise you I am not trying to put a timeframe on you. I am tossing out questions in the name of personal growth so that I can be a better husband and a more understanding human being.

I understand I hold a number of keys. All I can do in the face of my continued failure is to try to understand it and try to overcome it.

I am afraid you are detaching. Please don't.

wow...what a failure I feel like today.

Totally not related to the core issue, but a suggestions.

Sprint and I used our computers as escapes. I would go on my mine when he was hurting as I didn't want to intrude on his space - he would go on his because he didn't know how to spend time with me.

We still use them as escapes to an extent too, but we have placed the computers all in one room...so now we have to be in the same room, so we can't avoid or escape from eachother. If WE really need space, then one of us goes for a walk, etc.

It was a destructive behavior pre our A's and started become destructive again...but also part of who we are.

Maybe instead of having computers in each room, put them in the same room, that way you have them for the uncomfortable silence, but you can also talk about things - even as you type them. Bring that conversation back?

Other MB may not agree with me, but it's a suggestion that has worked out well for Sprint and I

brilliant! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I must admit that I do feel pretty detached.

I want to recover. I am SICK of living in this mess (despite the fact that you seem to think I want to).

I have already explained to you that I do not have your ability to compartmentalize things. Therefore, if something is uncomfortable it is my natural response to face it and deal with it. That is the only way I know how to get rid of the uncomfortableness.

I cannot force you to deal with things. I don't even know that I can teach you. I do know that you have been given ample time to work on this, yet this issue still remains. I told you a long time ago that I do not expect perfection and that I understand it is a learning process. I can wait it out, and I am a very patient person.

BUT, what I see here is you so strongly rebelling against dealing with these issues that you want to instead label it as "not moving forward" or me "living in the past", and you continue to hope these things will just go away and that I will get over it. I see you being impatient with me that I won't do that.

They will NOT go away. If do NOT WANT some pretend relationship like before...the kind where we pretend that everything is okay when it isn't.

I didn't know before that everything was not okay, or I would have tried everything to fix it. Now, I am aware that things are not okay. As a matter of fact, they are even less okay than before because now we have to deal with the aftermath of your destructive behavior - that you created as a result of NOT dealing with issues. Wouldn't it have been easier for you just to have told me that you had fears about getting married? It would have to have been easier than all of this. So then why do you want to continue the same behaviors????

I want to recover - personally and within this marriage. You are making it VERY difficult to do both. I can't do anything to stop you from hindering Recovery of this marriage. I can't control you. I can do something to stop you from hindering my own personal Recovery. I refuse to participate in playing the game of "Happy Little Home" when it isn't real.

I also will not force you to deal with these issues. If I have to force you, then it still isn't YOU dealing with them...it's me.

Well, even if our computers were in the same room it would not be a solution as Patriot's work and school schedules often prevent us from communicating.

Also, we can talk all we want about things, but there are certain subjects that are to be avoided at all costs with Patriot. Until we deal with those, what would be the point of having our computers in the same room - so we could discuss our viewpoints on his latest debate thread?

Ok, I am going to give my 2 cents and then disappear as I don't want to interfere in your family matters.

1. Wow! Frozen is obviously very angry. Why can you not see that Pat? Froz, do you have an outlet for your anger?

2. Pat, IMHO, no matter what you have to give up...cut back on that schedule of yours and put 100 percent of yourself into this M. Your W needs you right now, not later.

I am praying for you both.

Well, even if our computers were in the same room it would not be a solution as Patriot's work and school schedules often prevent us from communicating.

nope...not buying it.

If there is time to post...there is no time to talk.

How sad that people share a house...talk on the computer to strangers about their marital problems...and cannot find the time to talk to each other.

Maybe time away from MB would force you to talk to each other. Too many times when couples post, they use it to communicate passively.

Again, if there is time to "post"...there is time to "talk".

JMHO
committed

Pat you can't avoid subjects no matter how uncomforatble they make you - unless Froz is okay with avoiding the same subject. There are things Sprint and I don't discuss, ONLY because we BOTH agree it's not a helpful subject. But when a topic is important to one of us, we discuss it no matter how it hurts, what fight it causes, etc. Maybe you feel you aren't skirting a topic - but it's obvious Froz thinks you are - perhaps look at reapproaching this from Froz' POV?

It also seems like Froz is getting frustrated with your debates here, perhaps she feels you debate with her too? Or that if you put that time and energy to say how you feel about her and the marriage she would feel reassured?

Pat - you know I relate to you big time, I was the WS too (for a bit before I became a BS too) I KNOW the frustration of wanting to help someone heal but you can't. But Froz is giving you many ways you can help her out. And it first, maybe it wont seem like it's helping, but consistancy is key.

Sorry if I am overstepping my boundaries here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> just wanted to give my 2 cents.

FF,

I am angry because it seems as though he is placing the blame of stagnancy on my shoulders, labeling it as me not moving forward or living in the past.

I believe we are stagnant because we have so many issues that have not been dealt with.

I am irritated that he is displaying the very same behaviors that have caused him so many problems in his life...and in mine and because it irritates him that I even bring it up in the first place.

Why is he being so impatient with me...expecting me to "get over it"? I have been very patient with him in waiting for him to learn to deal with his conflict-avoidance issues.

Do I have an outlet for my anger? NO

It is not acceptable for me to be angry with Patriot. It gives him an excuse to conflict-avoid because I am not making it "safe" for him to be honest if I am angry.

BULLSEYE!

Identifying anger is not a failing of mine. At least not this obvious.

this is fun... public admonishment and all.

I can't get out of my work schedule. School... I can. I have class tomorrow and then that's it.

BTW, when did you talk to me about your anger prior to putting it here?

I guess if I wanted to state my feelings(so as to not compartmentalize them and such) I would be embarrassed, hurt and worthless.

All of which will not matter, because I can be out-trumped by ANY BS here if they so desired.

man... what a ramble... I don't even know what the hell to say.

Yesterday on the phone. I wasn't aware any of this was news to you.



When your compartmentalizing them results in an affair, I feel embarrassed, hurt, and worthless. Why do you want to continue the same behaviors?



I didn't realize that was how you perceived it. I thought we were discussing these issues. Since that IS how you perceive it, then I will stop. I'm sorry I brought up topics that caused you to feel uncomfortable.

I don't know....you've spent nearly 2 hours posting to each other from the same frickin' house. How utterly silly is that?

You have time to talk IF you make it a priority.

This type of thread is childish and immature. Surely your 'coach' has suggested that you avoid this sort of thing. If you don't have a marital coach/counselor...get one.

ba,

We aren't at the same house anymore. That was one post, last night. All the rest we have each been in separate locations.

I guess I didn't see trying to work out some of these issues as childish or immature. Maybe you do...I just wanted some of it resolved and thought maybe someone else's perspective could help accomplish that.