Well, lookee here...look who decided to grace us with her presence again!!!!!

Good to see you again Miz Athelny. You were missed.



Where ya seeing that ???



Can't seem to accomplish both yet, although I've become quite adept at accomplishing the latter. Must be some sort of natural talent there.



As in "fake it 'til you make it"?

Gosh, that feels a bit like conflict avoidance. There are still so many crazy things going on right now, particularly this weekend, it just seems impossible to ignore.

Patriot has been away this weekend...that didn't help. I met with OW's other OM the other night. That didn't make Patriot very pleased with me. I should have POJA'd it. He was pretty upset, which upset me because it seems like he is jealous of this guy since he found out there was an OM#2. If he had no emotional attachment to OW, why would he be jealous?

I'm supposed to meet with OW on Tuesday. That should be fun. Yippee, am I looking forward to that ! On top of everything, I just got off the phone with him. I had the privilege of informing him that I accidentally ran my car (with the rear door open) into the garage door. I scratched it up pretty good. He was none too pleased.

I wonder if I should expect a warm reunion. Three hours and counting...

All right Miss Sassy Pants! Try and keep yourself (and the motor vehicle) in one piece or do I have to come out there and dispense tough love?

Really, I just got home. It would be much nicer if you came out here for the tough lovin'. Then we could go get some Cambodian food. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sal

I guess you're going to have to come down here and open up a can of whoop-[censored] (can I say "[censored]"?) on me, because Patriot's probably going to take away my keys.

Besides, Cambodian food sounds yucky!!!! Probably has rice, too. I can't be havin' all those carbs...still trying to achieve an emaciated figure.

Whoa!! Froz... allow me to quote myself... with humility, of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's right...I forgot...Miz Sally told me to throw humility out the window. I'm supposed to be working on strong and proud. (strong and proud, strong and proud, strong and proud...)

I wonder how strong and proud I'll be when he gets home and sees the big scrape on the back of my car??? I also broke my Pocket PC this week - accidentally dropped it on the floor. It was my best friend in the world (next to Patriot and you guys, of course).

Destroyer of Expensive Toys

Froz, just get on over here and take your licks like a woman. I hear you loud and clear you know... BTW, Cambodian food is not so carb-laden as you might think and it's yumma good. You think I would feed you something bad?

Hey, pep is good for you but I worry when it goes from peppy to snippy and you know what I mean! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Why with the defensive baiting thing again? Pat doesn't give a hoot about the car - accidents happen.

BUT! Hello! I'd have been ticked about the meetings with OW's OM and OW and so on myself! All that OW/OM contact strikes me as stuff you do to end the A, not what you do when working on recovery. Just a thought that maybe Pat wasn't jealous of OW. Maybe he was genuinely annoyed that you are still seeking contact with a past that he is trying to keep in the past. What was your end goal with all that contact?

Also, at the risk of freaking the board out -- I have more trust that you will understand where I am headed with this -- are you perhaps on some level trying to make Pat a little jealous of your attentions or trying to provoke more of a show of commitment from him?

'Cuz I'd be wondering if you were seeking some kind of a revenge A - flirtation by way of contacting OW's OM. Not because you aren't trustworthy but because people do it and in fantasy, it seems like such an easy, simple way of regaining a sense of personal freedom and power.

Of course life doesn't work that way so I'd have been queasy and PO'd too if I was Pat, hearing that you went to see that guy. No ma'am. Wouldn't like it one bit! I'd worry that my wife was in danger with a loser guy. I'd worry that loser OW would try to contact me and I don't want contact. I'd worry that everything good up to this point with my wife would be in jeopardy. I'd be peeing my pants somewhat if I were him. Wonder if that is why he reacted with anger?

And are you really trying to become emaciated? Or are you kidding? Couldn't tell with that one because we all know you are a KNOCKOUT!!! :-) Regardless, if you must be thinner, I will gladly trade with you. Being underweight is no great shakes. Please consider that it makes your hair fall out! It isn't pretty!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Sal

Sorry, I guess I don't know what you mean. I didn't realize I was being that way.


Well, he did admit to the jealous thing, although he later recanted. As far is the issue of seeking contact with the past, you are correct...he did say he felt that way. I guess it is in the past for him. I guess it isn't for me.


I've been thinking all day long about this question and some of your others. I guess my end goal was to get answers. I'm so tired of being the one who doesn't know anything. I guess that's what I'm seeking...answers, information, trying to put all the pieces of the puzzle together.



I really don't think so, and I dug deep on this one.



A definite no on this one. I don't want that.



I would have been, too. He had every right to be upset. I shouldn't have done it. I guess in a way I felt entitled because I knew that I was trustworthy.



Tonight I'm wondering what there is that is good up to this point. I think maybe he is wondering the same. Things are really declining between us and I watch him growing more and more impatient every day. It seems to stem from the fact that I guess he thinks we (or I) should be further along than we are.

But you know what? More thinking tonight...I don't know if I can give him what he wants. Maybe that's the cause of all this friction and discomfort between us. I think he is waiting for me to provide something for him that just isn't there. I don't know if this is something that I will every really get over. Maybe this time it's just too much. Everyone has a breaking point, and maybe this was mine. The distance between us is almost palpable. He is committed, so he won't back down, but maybe it is really unfair of me to keep allowing him to have hope when this may very well be something I just can't do.

Like I said, every day he grows more frustrated and tired of "living in this". He said as much tonight. I don't know if I can give him what he is looking for. I really don't.



Kidding a little, but not entirely.



Sweet of you to say, but it really isn't true. You can't possibly know what I look like. I don't believe I've ever sent you a picture of myself.



I'll defnitely take that into consideration.

Froz, I am so sorry you had a rotten night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Still want the best for you. And selfishly, wish you lived closer...


Did you get the answers you needed?


Super glad to hear it cuz I think you two really love each other. Despite all that you've written about the crappy night you've had...



Honest to goodness, these questions sound really -- REALLY healthy! If you didn't care, you wouldn't waste your time questioning... What I think you both need is to get away from that atmosphere. Literally get yourselves a change of scene.

This is the internet but nope -- I'm not stalking you guys! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> A mutual friend was so overcome by you and Pat that a wedding pic was shared. Hope I am not getting mutual friend in trouble. But if you'll forgive -- from one chick to another -- you're really a knockout! Don't get all thin and wasted looking. I could bore you with sob stories about what Phil thinks of my chest since I've been on the diet for the broken-hearted, but really? Who wants to hear about that?!?

Chin up, boobs out! And check your e-mail...
Sally

That's the funny thing...I didn't have a rotten night. This is now the norm. I think HE had a rotten night. His expectations of me feel enormous. I really do think he's getting sick of living in this, and sick of dealing with my reaction to it all. Actually, I know he is because he said as much tonight.



Nah, I was just being playful. I guess I was glad to have a "normal marital issue" for a change. Admittedly, he took the car thing pretty well when he got home.



To some degree...yes. I've managed to find out many things that Patriot doesn't even know about the A. Unfortunately, it is the A from his perspective that is the real issue and I can only get that from him. I don't think he is willing or ready to face that. I don't think he even really knows entirely the answers to those questions himself. It's such a battle that I'm starting to not even care anymore. Tonight he exhuded much the same attitude. He's just sick of dealing with all of this.



You know what? Sometimes it doesn't really matter how much two people love each other...things still don't work out. I can't give him what he needs, and I certainly can't do it right now, if ever. He is sick of waiting, and his lack of patience in this area makes me feel enormously pressured. He wants a normal life, but things are anything but normal right now.

I want that, too, but things are not normal and I can't ignore that or pretend that they are. He wants me to make all of this disappear in my heart and my mind. I don't have that to offer him.



Well, we are leaving Friday for a vacation. Unfortunately, our destination just happens to be where his A began...of all the luck. I am so sick of dealing with all of this, too. Unfortunately, I did not create this mess, and while I can play a part in fixing it...it's not entirely up to me alone.



That "mutual friend" ranks pretty high in my book. He's gonna have to do way more than that to get in trouble with me. Really, I don't mind at all.



That is very sweet of you to say. Oddly, I feel that way about myself around everyone but my husband.



Me.



Will do.

Froz, don't give up.

This sucks.

I don't understand what's going on here... but I just can't reconcile one "simple" little thing:

You've both professed your love for each other, yet you both are standing on the sidelines watching everything go down the tubes.

That's my over-simplified version, from my take on more recent posts, and admitting I don't know all of the history. And probably not said in a nice way... but no disrespect intended.

What am I missing? Please explain, if you can.

Two people who say they love each other and want to make it work -- around here, that's a luxury. So... I feel for both of you, and want to understand.

I saw nothing un-nice or disrespectful.

As a matter of fact, we had a discussion on that very topic just a bit ago and I will try to explain it to you the way I explained it to him.

So, here's my take (keeping in mind that I can't speak for Patriot):

Yes, we do seem to be quite stagnant. He appears to be frustrated with me and thinks it is because I am preventing us from moving forward.

The way I see it, I can't move forward while leaving so much undone and so many unresolved issues. I just can't. I can't compartmentalize it and then later have it come back to haunt us. I don't want to skip over things because they are uncomfortable, particularly when his practice of doing that very thing is one of the key problems that led to his A.

So, here are my choices and the benefit/drawback of each...

a.) I can lead us there.
Drawback - I'm tired of leading, which only results in looking like pushing. I also don't want to push him somewhere he doesn't really want to go.

This has been a problem in the past, particularly when he wasn't honest about how he really felt and would even say it was where he wanted to go, when, in fact, it wasn't. So the only way I can determine if a certain direction is where he really wants to go is if he leads us there. I feel it is very important that he does. I need for him to be the leader.

Oh, there may be times when I have a suggestion or an idea and I don't hold it back or keep it to myself. I do tell him, but if he chooses not to act on it, I don't want to push him. I figure he will do it when he is ready to. I can be pretty patient.

b.) I can leave.
Drawback - Plain and simply, I have faith in him and I don't want to leave. I believe eventually he can get us where we need to be. I can do my part, sure, but I can't do his part for him.

I do get pretty frustrated with him on occassion, particularly when he displays impatience with me for not moving forward because I believe I have shown a great amount of patience with him, hence the beginning of this thread. I got really angry with him because I felt like he was being impatient with me and placing the blame of the stagnancy on my shoulders.

c.) I can follow him.
I want to. I'm waiting for him to lead, but I can't follow unless it feels right or safe. Right now, the direction he is leading me doesn't feel right. It feels like he wants to ignore uncomfortable portions of Recovery and that doesn't feel wise or safe to me. So I choose option "d".

d.) I don't follow or lead. I wait. I can work on myself (or try to), but I can't do his part for him. I let him know what I need or what I believe is hindering us from moving forward and then I wait for him to be ready to lead us there. If he has some different idea of how to get us there, I am willing to listen. But, the idea of skipping over the hard stuff and pretending like it's not there and not dealing with it isn't an option for me.

So, I wait until he is ready.

As I said, this is my explanation for "sitting on the sidelines." I can't really give you his, as I can't really speak for him.

Does any of that make any sense at all? If it doesn't, I would be more than happy to clarify until I am understood. I would rather explain...I really hate being misunderstood.

Froz - I realize I don't know you that well...but I think this statement says a lot right here.

It's almost as if you both expect the other to 'fix' the situation and the feelings. YOU can't MAKE Pat feel a certain way. HE can't MAKE you feel a certain way. You are both taking responsibility for the other's negative feelings. And you are both spending so much time trying to 'fix' each other, that you aren't spending enough time 'fixing' yourself.

Froz - Pat can be understanding, supportive, non-LB-ing, loving, etc. He could be the model H. But it would still not 'fix' the negative feelings you have about the A. You are going to have to deal with those feelings whether you are together or not.

Likewise, you could forget about it all, pretend it never happened, 'get over it', and it STILL wouldn't 'fix' Pat. He will have to find what he needs to 'fix' himself independent of you.

I would like to see you both put an end to "expecting" certain emotions from the other. One day you may be angry - he may be having a good day. THAT'S OK. The next day, it might be vice versa. And THAT'S OK, too. The thing is that both of you are going to 'feel' differently a lot - and both of you are going to have to work on yourselves. You can't "expect" the other to fix this for you.

Here's what you should 'expect' - POJA, honesty, respect, treating each other in a 'loving' manner (and that doesn't necessarily mean feeling loving all the time), not LB-ing (and that just means no AO's, DJ's, etc - not that you can't be angry or sad or upset).

I would LOVE to see both of you start owning your emotions. If you are angry, then feel angry. You have every right. If Pat doesn't like it, then OK. He doesn't have to like it - but he can understand, and he can do what he can to support you.

If he feels angry, then let him be angry. Don't try to 'make' him happy or change his emotion. Just try to understand and support him.

Froz - one thing on this thread that I have noticed.....you say that you're 'sorry' a lot. Why are you always sorry? You really don't need to be. You feel the way you feel. If you misunderstood someone here, then they will let you know. But you are very concerned about whether you peaved someone off here - or if you are feeling the way you should feel - or if you are 'saying' the right thing.

It actually reminds me of how I was at one point. A people pleaser - always wanting to do the right thing, be the perfect person, 'make' people happy........but in reality, all it does is drain you when you don't get the reaction you want (aka - they are happy again), or if you can't 'feel' the way you know they want you to.

Maybe Pat just wants you to be happy. And maybe, just maybe , you're not going to be happy right now. I know, that's a stretch, right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. But REALLY, it would be more than a MIRACLE for you to be OK with everything right now. So maybe he has to understand that it's going to hurt getting to the place where you ARE happy. You are going to feel anger, sadness, relief, triggers, love, fear.......and once you are finished feeling all that, then you will get to happy. But please stop trying to always 'feel' how he wants you to. Just 'feel' how you feel - own it. Be proud of it. Stand by it.

He will need to do the same. Try not to react to each other's feelings - but react to each other's actions and how you treat each other. You can be angry, and respectfully ask Pat to leave you alone. Or you could respectfully ask him to hold you. Whatever you need. But don't feel badly for feeling angry, sad, or whatever else.

It works both ways.

I still think that IC would be good for both of you. It would give you each some time to focus on yourselves and what you need to do to heal individually - as well as the MC to help you heal the M.

I see you both struggling so hard with the M, that neither of you are healing individually. And if that doesn't happen, the M cannot heal either.

Please consider it. I think you both truly love each other. My exH and I realized all this too late. After the D. But believe it or not, we finally realized it. And now, we actually have respect, trust, and honesty with each other. It's really wierd. I just wish we both had realized it before the D.

You guys still have the chance to do what he and I did not. Please consider all this.

Froz ~ my impression, after reading several of your threads, is that you are dealing with a gigantic load of anger. Like me, I doubt that all of your anger is over your husband's affair. Until I really started to work on myself - I didn't know I was angry. When I realized I was angry, I tried to stuff it down out of sight because it was soooooo very scary.

Anger has a supressing effect on all other emotions. It is difficult to truely feel other emotions. Suppressed anger causes depression.

In my case, my fear of letting lose my anger, left me with years of bottled rage that eventually stunted and halted my growth.

Maybe you should take a time out from marriage work, and do some Froz work? If you don't deal with the anger, nothing else will heal, and I suspect, when you begin to heal from the rage, you will be able to make better decisions about what to do with your marriage.

Forgive me, I am not all too familiar with your story. In a nutshell, it appears to me that there are answers re: the A that you need to move on in R- is this correct? Why is your H unwilling to do so? Have you discussed this with a MC or tried to POJA it?

Anyway, there was a survey I read about a few months ago on another MB website and I found the results very interesting. It changed my attitude about revealing information about my A. And, when I read it, it made sense as there was information that I had needed re: my H's a.

Here it is:

This is the results of a survey about A's and having questions answered.


The primary goals of the survey were:

--To discover the factors involved in whether or not marriages are likely to survive.
--To determine the factors involved in whether or not people are likely to personally recover from this experience.

Statistical analyses of the results indicate:

--The amount the affair was discussed with the spouse and the extent to which the spouse answered questions were significantly associated with the current marital status and quality of the marriage.
--The amount the affair was discussed with the spouse and the extent to which the spouse answered questions were significantly associated with recovery.

Below are the Results of 2 of the 8 Statistical Analyses

1. Hypothesis: A couple is more likely to stay married when they thoroughly discuss the whole situation.

55% of those who discussed the situation very little were still married (and together)
78% of those who discussed the situation a good bit were still married (and together)
86% of those who discussed the situation a lot were still married (and together)


2. Hypothesis: A couple is more likely to stay married when the spouse answers their questions.

59% of those who refused to answer questions were still married (and together)
81% of those whose partner answered some of their questions were still married (and together)
86% of those whose partner answered all their questions were still married (and together)


The findings clearly show that getting answers to questions and thoroughly discussing the details of the affair increase the likelihood of maintaining and rebuilding the marriage. (Other results clearly show the same kind of increase in the likelihood of recovering from a spouse's affair.)

These survey results are consistent with what I have been told repeatedly through the years: "nothing is worse than not knowing."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Importance of Reinforcing the Honesty

While it's understandable that the focus is almost exclusively on "getting answers," the key to whether or not there is a continuation of getting answers depends in large part on how you react to hearing the answers you do get. While it may not seem "fair," one who asks for details has a responsibility to hear them in a way that doesn't punish the partner for doing what they've asked them to do. (This is not a matter of it being "wrong" to punish the partner; it's simply not "smart" to immediately punish someone for being honest, despite the potential pain from the honesty, because it means the honesty will be unlikely to continue.)

Here's another excerpt from the "The Monogamy Myth" that points out how important it is for the person who asks for answers to react in a way that Reinforces the Honesty:

"The ability to succeed in dealing honestly with an affair does not depend solely on the attitude and behavior of the one who had the affair. Their partner's reaction is critical because it serves either to reinforce honesty or to discourage it. Honesty about affairs comes in stages. First, there is the admission that it happened, then the many details that contribute to seeing the whole picture. A partner's reaction to the initial fact of the affair has a lot to do with the willingness of the person who had an affair to share any of the details.

"A person who discovers their mate's affair usually feels justified in venting their feelings of hurt and anger. While they certainly have a right to those feelings, they need to recognize that punishing their mate for telling the truth will almost surely put an end to any further honesty. So while it may seem unfair, it's in their own best interest to try to reinforce whatever honesty is received if there is to be much hope for the honesty continuing.

"Supporting a partner's honesty often takes enormous patience. One man said he felt his effort to get his wife to open up and talk was like peeling an onion, with each skin coming off very hard. He continued to encourage her and to show his appreciation for her efforts to be honest, so she finally became convinced it was safe to tell him the truth. It took a long time, but they were able to stay together and develop a relationship that was closer than it had been prior to the affair.

Hope this helps (((froz)))

Froz, I've had a long, dumb day and getting dumber heading into my fourth day without sleep, so I'm not trusting myself to be either enlightening or pithy! Ha! Pithy. ME?!?! You laughing at that too?

Anyway, all the stuff above -- it's good stuff. Your post reminded me briefly of Camus though, so that's what I'll leave here tonight. Big hugs to you honey. And remember this in Chi-town too:

Don't walk behind me;
I may not lead.

Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow.

Just walk beside me and be my friend.


Much love,
Sally

L.I.T,

Thank you so much for your response. You brought up some very astute observations and good points, particularly given that you said you don't know me very well.

Some of what you said I agree with. Others I can explain.



I'm not trying to make him feel a certain way and I know I can't fix him. I am waiting for him to arrive at a place where he is ready to do the things he needs to do to fix himself.

I am trying to fix myself, too, but man is it a slow process sometimes - well, always, really.

But you are correct...We DO have an issue with feeling responsibility and guilt for the other's feelings. Not sure how to overcome that one other than just to accept that the other is allowed to feel the way we feel.

I can't speak for him, but what I am specifically struggling with, where this topic is concerned, is the fine line between allowing myself to feel the way I feel while also making it safe for him to be honest about the way he feels. It feels like a very fine line.



You make a great point here, and this has definitely become a problem for us. I wish to overcome this. Do you have a checklist or instruction manual, perhaps? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I can work so well when I have a specific plan. It is the lack of a plan that leaves me feeling as though I'm floundering. If someone tells me to do steps 1, 2, and 3 (with a detailed description of all 3, of course), I can achieve it. I guess I just don't know exactly how to fix this. But you are correct...it is often an obstacle for us.


I do apologize often. I do this because I make mistakes often. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. I grew up with a mother who was NEVER wrong. I don't want to be that way. I want to be open-minded enough to recognize when I am wrong and to be humble enough to admit and apologize for it. I don't believe I do it for people-pleasing purposes. I do it because I throw this stuff out there on this forum to gain objective assessments and I want to grow from them.



I think I rarely try to feel how he wants me to. As a matter of fact, I sometimes feel it's impossible for me to. I seem to be wired in such a manner that I am incapable of feeling any other way than how I actually feel. I own that. I stand by it. I am not always proud, as you suggested, of the way I react to the way I feel. It is my reactions that I apologize for, rather than the feelings that brought the reactions about. I may feel how I feel, but my reaction to those feelings is MY CHOICE. I am sometimes not so proud of the way I react to them and want to learn and grow from those mistakes.


Again, it's not the feelings I feel badly for. It is my reaction to them. Sometimes I do feel badly for my behavior in the way I reacted.

Thanks so much for your perspective. It is definitely food for thought.

I sure do appreciate all of the responses. Some different perspectives is really what I am after. Kind of a "can't see the forest through the trees" kind of thing...

My brain is shot tonight, though. It's been a long day.
I wake up often in the middle of the night (hey, wait a minute...it IS the middle of the night).

I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate the responses and the giving it took to put them together and I will address them each as soon as I can. I am dying for some direction.

Thank you so much.