I've read so much here, but have not posted. Here's my situation. M 15 years, 2 kids, 12 year old DS, 9 year DD. He travels for work sometimes frequently, and sometimes sporatically. We had a very bad fight almost one month ago, and were ready to call it quits.

One of the things we fought about is he never wants to go anywhere with me unless we take the kids. We may go to the store without them or maybe to lunch, but anything that is considered more than a normal every day thing, he wants the kids with us. During our serious discussion after the huge fight, he admitted that he uses the kids as a buffer so we don't fight. I told him that I appreciate him admitting this. I said if things went well for the next two weeks, would he be willing to go out on a date just the two of us, and he said yes.

Well, 1 1/2 weeks went by and we set a date. My friend offered to babysit the kids, I tested the waters to see if he was still interested by mentioning the babysitting offer of my friend. He said ok good. So, it was a Saturday, and we agreed to go out on a Saturday night at 8 pm. The whole day I kept myself busy, cleaning, cooking, taking the kids where they wanted to go. Then we went to the pool, came home at 6:30 p.m. by 7:00 pm I was getting ready and by 7:45 I was ready. H was still on the couch, not dressed, in his bathing suit watching t.v. Rather than say anything I took the kids to the babysitter making it obvious that we were going hoping that he would take the hint and get ready. When I got home he was still on the couch, still not dressed. Now it's 8:20 p.m. and I am steaming mad. I had mentioned early that I would go on the computer and wait for him to be ready and he said ok, but I guess this was not entirely true since I changed my mind and decided to take the kids to the babysitters.

At 8:25 p.m., I blew everything I had worked so hard for. I sat next to him, asked him if this was a game. He said that he didn't know what I was talking about. And then I got upset and told him how this is such a top EN of mine, and that him taking it so lightly and making it so obvious that it was not important to him hurt me so much.

Well, he got up, got ready, did it without being mad, and we went, but then I felt horrible. I shook it off and we had a pretty good time, but I know that our little discussion before hand was still playing in his head.

Please give me some advice. I need to know how do I not get upset when my EN's are not being met.

Let me add something else. My H is passive aggressive. So, even though I did a Plan A, there may have been something I missed, and this was his way of getting me back.

We have both recognized this, and both recognize this dance that we perform, he plays the games and I react - he gets mad at my reaction, plays another game, and I react, etc. (and some of these "games" are very hurtful).

I think since we brought this out in the open that I need to stop reacting, and he needs to stop playing games that he may have been trying to stop, and I have been trying to stop reacting. But lately especially since that night I'm starting to put my guard back up.

So, again if someone whose dealt with PA's before can help I would appreciate it. We are both trying to make this M work, and I need to do my part. I need to get back to that place where I trusted him, I need to stop reacting, any advice?

Welcome to marriagebuilders. How can you trust him if he agrees to a date, and then sits on the couch, even after you have taken the kids to a babysitter?

Have you been to counseling? PA people are very hard to deal with.

Do you have any idea of what he may be angry about?

What was the big fight about?

Believer,

Thank you for your post. To answer your questions,



That's one of my problems right now. It's very hard for me to trust him.



I was very close to going to counseling, even made an appointment, but then cancelled it because I'm afraid that this would be the beginning of the end of my M.

I know that it would help me, and I definitely want that, but I also want to make sure that my kids are taking care of. Once they are out of the house, then I will make choices that I know will affect me only.



This time, no. Sometimes if I go back in my head, I can figure it out and then I bring it up, and it makes him feel better, but it all has to fall on my ability to read minds.



Basically, I made a remark that he should cut down the branch over the trampoline, (he had just got done cutting down the branch over his garden). He said that he was not going to do it because it was not something that affected him. Only to find out later that this was not true - he was saying this to get a reaction out of me because he was mad that I was "telling him what to do".

Anyway, that seemed to die down - we went out to the movies (all of us), and afterward he said "do you have your credit card". and somehow, although I can't recount the details because it happened so fast, he asked because he wanted to go out to dinner, but then changed his mind, and told the kids that this was because I was sarcastic to him, and that they could all thank me for that - this is something he's never done.

I really reacted this time (at home) and said that he had no right to turn the kids against me and that this was not something I would tolerate. Once again, I thought everything died down, and the next morning he was packed to go on one of his trips out of state for business but conveniently forgot to tell me.

I had had it at this point and was ready to call it quits. We talked on the phone on Monday (he was out of state), I told him I had had enough, and asked him what HE wanted to do about it, because anything I tried he would sabotage. He said he would call back on Wednesday with an answer. Wednesday he called back and said that he had been depressed - (I did some searching and found a list of behaviors men exhibit when they are depressed and oh boy did it fit many of them) - but it still doesn't make it ok. He also said that he has been feeling hostile towards me, told me some things he didn't like that I was doing, but that he would try better at not feeling hostile, and treating me better.

Things were pretty good until movie night. I feel like at times everything I do and say is under a microscope and every time I do or say something that is not to his liking or that he feels threatened by, I am pushed back 10 steps. even though I took 5 ahead.

Any suggestions would be helpful. Also, he's not always like this. It seems to happen almost in a cycle. Like now he'll be ok for a few more weeks, and then we'll start the dance again.

Have you guys talked much about the PA behvior? Does he see his behavior as a problem? And does he want to change, or is it anohter one-sided conversation?

If he TRULY is committed to changing his behavior then there are some steps you can take...

My H and I are dealing with this now, and here are the things I keep in mind.

Being PA is all about control...he doesn't want to feel controlled, he wants to be in control of the situation at ALL times, that includes dragging his feet and 'making you pay' for any wrongs you have done him.

WHENEVER you see a PA behavior you point it out.

He needs to realize he has control over his actions AT ALL TIMES, you have no control over him...but he has NO CONTROL over you either, and will make choices based on what is best for you.

How I would have handled that situation is been very clear about what you saw in his behavior and what the consequences were.

Before you took the kids to your friends I would have sat down with him and said..."It looks like you are not excited about going out tonight. I have planned this for awhile and I'm not going to waste a night out. I'm going to drop the kids out and then I'm going to make plans tonight without you. If you want to join me you can call and find out where I am, if not I'll see you when I get home...goodbye."

It's very important to do with without any feeling one way or another...be prepared to have a good time without him. He may sputter and complain...don't take it, follow your plan, he can catch up with you, don't let him control YOUR night.

If he calls, be prepared for hom to stall you and ask to meet you somewhere and then be late...holding you in one place for awhile. Be very clear about your plans, and let him know he can meet you at any one of these places on YOUR schedule. For instance, "I'll probably be at the restaurant at 9, then at the club at 10:30, then at friends at about midnight. If I see you I see you, if I don't, I don't."

If he doens't call or show up at all you let him know how disappointed you are when you come home that you both had talked about this ahead of time, he had either lied or changed his mind and it was disrespectful of him to not go out without any warning. Talk about what to do next time. Let him know the consequences if things don't happen again...

Here are some things I've had to do with my H.

Sometimes we will go to a party, event, park and he is not having a good time. He will start to complain, get mad, generally make my life miserable until we leave. We've talked about his behavior and that sometimes, as head of household he has to attend these events out of love for our family (like take the kids kite flying, or go to a niece's b-day party, etc.) He will often make a promise he will not do this again. The next step is very important. I tell him if he DOES do this, I will walk away from him because I want to have a good time and I will not listen to his whining, neither will I allow him to try to make me feel miserable with him. This has happened a few times since and I will do this exact thing...told him he was complaining and miserable and I was having a bad time standing next to him and listening to him and I was going to get away from him until he was happier. THe light bulb would seem to go off and he would look for me in a few minutes and did seem happier.

This is one example. There are many behaviors we have talked about and I've been very clear about what I will accept and what I won't.

I know it seems like I am trying to be too controlling, but not at all. What I am managing to do is removing myself form his ability to control me while reminding him of his behavior.

You see, in our discussions I have realized HE doesn't realize he is doing this half the time...he is using an old defense mechanism that realy isn't useful anymore, and is harmful to our M. We have talked a great deal about what behaviors are harmful, he has committed to changing them. Now I am guarding myself and not ALLOWING him to USE these tactics on me any longer, and also importantly, POINTING OUT when he IS using these tactics.

He will still revert to the PA under times of stress (the worst time). We had a talk last night where he pulled out EVERY TRICK IN THE BOOK!!! Grrrr, but most days are PA free. I wish you luck. It is hard work, but doable.

Stop REACTING to him in angry ways...when you get angry, he has 'won'.

So he probably wouldn't consider going to a doctor for some anti-depressants? It might be just that he is depressed.

You at least should go for some counseling. I would let him know that you are worried about the marriage. There is no need to threaten him. Just let him know you are concerned.

Is he having problems at work?

Is there anything you do that drives him crazy?

Stillmakingit,

Thank you for responding. I think your name says it all. I appreciate your advice. I think you're right. The next time I have something planned and there is a chance that he will stall, then I need to have a plan - be prepared to not go with him, leave without him, but do it with dignity and respect for both of us.

I have read some info regarding PA's, and it also says that it is important that you point out the behavior, which I have been doing and he has been acknowledging. I also recently read that it is not good to try and be your PA's "counselor", and I kind of agree with that. I find it hard to try and teach him how to treat me better, when I'm his target.

I think what you're doing is wonderful, and your H must really feel that you love him to keep this up. That's part of my problem. I have so much going on at times, that I don't have the energy to deal with this at times, or to keep guarded to look out for it. But I do love him, and I want to make my M work, I just can't do it alone.


Believer,

"So he probably wouldn't consider going to a doctor for some anti-depressants? It might be just that he is depressed"


We've talked about him getting help for his depression, but he said that he doesn't like taking pills.

As far as the counseling goes, you are right. I had an appointment and then cancelled it, but I may reschedule it.

I believe work can be a big stresser for him and he has been discussing this more ever since I stopped giving him advice.

Yes, there are some things I do that drives him crazy, but it's like there's 2 lists. When he's not depressed, it's things that would make any man crazy, he doesn't like to be told what to do, he doesn't like when I nag him, he doesn't like when I volunteer his services without his prior approval.

But when he's depressed, the recording in his head says that he's not understood, and that I don't treat him well enough and that I don't love him enough. So it could be anything and everything, but again he doesn't talk about it. He just stews with it, until he finally brings it up at the time I least expect it, and it seems to be always something that I was not intending.

I think one of the bitter ironies is that because he plays games at times, he thinks that I do too, and I don't.

Thank you again for responding.

My continuing problem is that I do love this man, and feel extremely hurt when he pulls one of his stunts, and he knows this. Unfortunately, my hurt is transformed into angeer, and I think we would both react better if I could just react by crying instead of yelling.

Any advice?

Ding, ding, ding!!!! I think this is SOOOOOOoooooo key.
I don't think my H realizes how much his behavior hurts me. This A really enabled me to change my behavior around him...I chose not to get MAD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> about it, but was going to show him how I REALLY felt underneath this tough exterior and showed him how full of sorrow I was. I stopped trying to be tough for both of us...

I can tell you there is a certain amount of peace to just do things when I see he is dragging his feet. Some of hte simpler things I do is...when I ask and ask him to do something, I don't nag endlessly like I used to, I simply say, "That's OK, I can do it myself." Without any sarcasm or anger in my voice...and many times he will jump up and say..."Fine, I'll do it..." Sometimes we even talk back and forth about who is going to do it...

It has made me a MUCH more peaceful person.

Stillhere,

"Ding, ding, ding!!!! I think this is SOOOOOOoooooo key.
I don't think my H realizes how much his behavior hurts me. This A really enabled me to change my behavior around him...I chose not to get MAD about it, but was going to show him how I REALLY felt underneath this tough exterior and showed him how full of sorrow I was. I stopped trying to be tough for both of us..."

That's exactly my point. Thank you. I need to work on that. On the few occasions that I've been able to stifle my anger and let the tears flow, we were able to have a civil conversation.

got to go the kids are back.