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This may be poor ettiqete but i think i will risk it. I have been somewhat following my husbands posts(with permission he said he didn't mind me reading)and am getting a bit weary of the way the posts are skewed. So in light of that I think a bit of background information is nessasary so that the reply's to his post are a bit more helpful rather that fulfilling the things he wants to hear.
First off let me say that at no time have I justified my affair nor have I layed the blame at his feet. I made the choice to involve myself with another man and I take FULL blame for that. I have fully owned up to that. Secondly I never involved my children in the affair. The physical aspect of the affair was very brief the emotional part lasted about 2 months with one month being e-mails and the other being phone calls. Again I am only stating the facts...not making less of the affir by the duration of it.
Now for a bit of background..this is possibly not where it should be posted and I appologise if that is the case.
When we got married I came into the marriage vowing to love and honor my husband...my husband made the same promise.
Almost from the very beginning we started having problems. He brought some serious baggage into the marriage that I was unaware of. At the time my daughter was 4 years old. He had some very serious trust issues accused me of infidelity...accused me of being an internet sex girl (my picture being posted there) had downloaded pictures of someone he thought was me. Showed them to me and questioned me. Why was he frequenting those sights in the first place? Read back to an earlier post on affair vs. porngraphy. This has been an ongoing problem for 7 years as well. Do i consider a pornograpy addiction the same as a physical affair... absolutly...the Bible doesn't seperate the two either. Wheather in deed or thought the damage it causes is devestating. He brought the pornography into our house and into our bed even after I told him how I felt about it. Most times he tried to hide the fact that he was viewing it. Would lie about it.What woman appreciates knowing her husband is using her to fullfill a fantasy of someone else? I did not approve of it and he knew it and still continued the behavior.
He was moody and disrespectful to me,the kids, and family. Demanding, emotionaly and verbally abusive, and harsh and abusive to my 11 year old daughter. He showed clear favoritism over our 5 year old and the 11 year old. Over time our problems only got worse. Not a good wife, not a good mother, not a goood lover, this list goes on. I made every excuse and reason for his behavior untill i ran out of them...at times believed that I wasn't good enough.For 7 years he abused my love for him and used it to his advantage. During this time I would bring it up to him confront him ..tell him what he was doing to our marriage..beg him to stop his behavior,he would make promises and beg for forgivness and then still continue to do as he pleased. He took very little interest in the kids lives and resented anything that I did outside the home...including school...which i quit because i thougt it would help the marriage. He would do things for me and then resent the things he did and let me know it.
Yes we had some good times...for very short periods of times. Usully because i kept my mouth shut and was to tired to make things an issue. My 11 year old now wants nothing to do with him he.. has been extremely harsh with her...7 weeks at grandmas isnt going to erase those feelings. Both kids have been witness to his behavior towards me and the 11 year old has be on the recieving end of it. She feels that he doesnt love her and turns away from him. The 5 year old acts out emotionally because of it.
This had been ongoing up untill My father passed. I had asked for a divorce 6 months prior to that...and he convinced me not to through broken promises. At my fathers funeral I realized that time is very short and that i did not want want my kids to grow up thinking that this was how a marriage worked. The emotional impact of our marriage was haveing a huge negative effect on the kids. (I did NOT start the affair during the 2 weeks I was there for the funeral.not even a thought of it)When i got home I told my husband I wanted a divore that i was used up and couldnt do it anymore...emotionally dead...physically and mentally tired...he had taken all i had. I had lost motivation to keep the house in order(although it was still clean...food prepared daily..his lunch included, laundry done,blah blah blah just not up to the standards it could have been)I no longer wanted to be with him in an intimate way...although i still was regardless of my feeling i didnt withhold that from him, but i just couldnt be married to him anymore...I was used up. Once again he asked me not to file for divorce,my intention was to only go to my mothers for 2 weeks to help her after my fathers funeral. We agreed that I would take the kids and go sooner..he said the sooner the better..because he didnt want me in the house if I wanted a divore...so I did. Told him I needed some space to figure out what i was going to do. During the trip he found e-mails from the om, most of them quite innocent some not. At the time it was an emotional affair that had gone on for a couple of weeeks tht had started as a frindship and progreses into a bit of fantasy. No intention was made to start an affair or continue one. I went to my mother's because i have no family here.none. I did not go there to be with the om. And once i got there had no contact with him for several weeks.
During the time I was there husband still continued to push me and try to control things to the point that i didn't want to speak with him anymore unless it was general conversation. Tried to use emotional warfare on me and hold my 5 year old daughter over my head...told me he could have me legally brought back..etc. Forgetting that he is the one that told me to take the kids and go in the first place. So I came back home still feeling like i did when I left. The phsyical part of the affair didn't happen untill just before i left to come home. I felt My marriage was over and took comfort from someone else when i had no right to and for that I am deeply sorry.It is a regret I have to live with.
We have been to couseling starting the week i got home and in the 2 sesions we had prior to last night hubby did the opposite of all the counselor was suggesting he do. still push push push, its all about his feelings and not the isssues of the marriage. Talk about how much he has changed with no action to back it up. The affair is not the issue in this marriage but the pinnacle of a long ongoing set of problems...which is why the counselor sugested that the issue be put aside. Not that it should not be addresssed but it was not the most important issue right now. With the stipulation that i had no contact with the om. Which i havent.
So where do we go from here? I have no reason to trust my husband on an emotional level I've heard all the promises before...i've witnessed them being broken, i honestly don't know if i have it in me to love him again and I have my children to think about. The best recourse is not always keeping the family intact at all cost for the kids sake...because the kids have been greatly affected in a bad way because of our relationship. Now knowing the background facts and what led up to all this...can we have a little more insightful advice on what to do for our mariage beyond the affair? Once again I do fully take responsibily for the affair and am concerned with my husbands feelings about it. I wish it had never happened.
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michdadwife:
Can you edit your post and put paragraph returns in it?
Many would like to read your post but it is too difficult to read.
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The affair is not the issue in this marriage but the pinnacle of a long ongoing set of problems...which is why the counselor sugested that the issue be put aside. Not that it should not be addresssed but it was not the most important issue right now. ' This is what you are missing - I too am the WS, and have a story like yours, the neglect, the pain...but right now for your H the A IS THE ISSUE - how he treated you gave you no right to do what you did and seek comfort from another. I did the same thing. I don't care what your councellor says. One your H heals from the pain YOU caused him, then you M can be the issue. Right now you need to SHOW him that you are COMMITED to working on the issues...by putting those issues on hold and letting it be about HIM. No matter WHAT he did to you, you broke all your commitment...you have to show him your commitement NOW before you can work on the marriage. If you can are telling me your whole marriage was horrible, as this posts says - then you are still foggy - you didn't marry him and stay with him that long if you marriage has been that bad. There is always good - but ALL WS, like myself, focus on the negatives SO much we forget the positives. FIND THOSE POSITIVES. Give him TIME to heal from what you did to him, before he can work on changing himself for you. SHOW him you want to be a team
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Welcome to MB. Lots of good advice here.
I think it's great that you and your husband are in counseling--but I have to wonder about the advice you're getting from the marriage counselor NOT to expose your affair to the other man's wife. His wife has a right to know that her husband was sexual with another woman.
Last edited by Elle_35; 07/27/05 10:32 AM.
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I think that BOTH of you need to make a list of what ACTIONS would demonstrate to you that your spouse has made the changes you feel need to happen in order for your marriage to become what it COULD be. And then share those lists with each other, and commit to meeting those actions within a decent timeline...perhaps have these lists managed by your MC as well.
I think that Dorry is right too...my wife was convinced that she hadn't been happy in YEARS...she said that over and over in our first MC sessions after d-day, and that lasted for a good while afterwards. It drove me nuts...looking back, I just couldn't see it.
She eventually came to the realization on her own that she'd been unhappy for about a year...which amazingly enough coincided with what I felt was accurate. But during the EA, and in the withdrawl afterwards, she was CONVINCED that she'd been unhappy for at least the last 5 years. Right now it's like looking at something through a colored lens...EVERYTHING is tinted by the situtaion you're in right now...you simply can't see things without looking at them tinted by how you're feeling about everything right now.
Good luck to both of you, regardless.
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michdadwife...
there is no doubt on this forum that the focus of actions and advice goes to the person posting....be them Betrayed spouse or Wayward spouse....BS/WS....
Also know that a huge huge part of this site that focuses on the poster do very much adress the actions of the BS....
those leading up to an affair and those occuring after...
the public service announcement that follows is as you stated in your post...that your husband is not responsible for your choice to engage in an affair...BUT there are cases where the betrayed spouse has some onus of responsibility in the atomoshphere that contributed to the affairs ability to occur...
peoples responses are not skewed....because they are based only on the information offered.....which is why so much of the responses are begging your spouse for more information and to knock off the illusive short anwers...
and know also that people are well aware of the fact that there is always more to the story then offered here...so try not to get upset with the advice given here...for it is just advice...
things that are concerning ...
1. your husband needs a plan of 1000000000000% accountability for stopping porn use
2. you need a plan of 1000000000000% accountability for stopping contact and proving no contact with OM..
no contact letters
informing the spouse of your om who has the right to choose whether she wants to be married to someone who cheats....
3. you both need a plan that seriously addresses the issues with the children...and both of you must look at the roles that you both play in perpetuating the confusion in her world...whether the protector, enabler, enforcer etc..
marriage builders is not for going back and restoring the old...because usually the old sucked ...it's ALL about rebuilding a totally new and loving marriage in which the vow to cherish one another have real meaning....
what is the serious baggage he brought in?
what does that mean....
What woman appreciates knowing her husband is using her to fullfill a fantasy of someone else?
did he tell you this or is this what you believe he was doing....
marriage building is a lot of letting go of the known and familiar even when the known and familiar is icky...it's still comfortable and predictable....
human nature draws us all to the known....
ark
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well-wife just told me by phone that she had been following here and posted this.I thought she was just maybe following on beliefnet.com (kinda shocked)---anyways here's our story.
We need advice and direction. please direct me -I want to save this marriage.
The relavant story about baggage,porn,emotional treatment are considered facts.
Where do we go from here? Who needs to do what?
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I think you Mich need to work on changing yourself - getting rid of your porn problems, dealing with your baggage, and figuring out through MB, how you need to change within your marriage to be the man your wife needs.
I think your W needs to find the positives, as even though those are all facts, as a WS, I still here alot of a negative cycle in her voice. She needs to find the positives, and also figure out what SHE herself can change. Alot of emotional treatment, etc, also works because she wasn't doing something for you as well.
For example - I was greatly neglected in my M pre- my A...but in all honesty - I was neglecting Sprint too, I just couldn't see it, and he figured out now that he was doing one of those - well she wont give for me, so why would I give for her...subconciounsly.
You both have to learn to be givers without expecting anything in return, and you both have to set BOUNDARIES - healthy ones, for dealing with BOTH your issues.
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Me 37
Her 35
Seperated 5/14/05
Back 7/08/05
EA affair found on 5/15/05
PA affair found on 7/10/05
2 kids 5 & 11
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Me 37
Her 35
Seperated 5/14/05
Back 7/08/05
EA affair found on 5/15/05
PA affair found on 7/10/05
2 kids 5 & 11
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The problems require more than message board opinions.
You need couples counseling.
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We are in counseling...although i do feel that in order for couples counseling to be effective H needs to deal with the prior issues of controling behavior and insecurity as well as self-centerdness as these issues that have been a large part of marriage problems. These issues are still a big part of our marriage as well as my inability to open myself up again. I feel that i need the time to do that and he is yet unable to let go of trying to control my feelings and the order of how we do that.
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in which ways did he try to control...
what did he do/say
what did you do/say
is there porn use currently going on?
you can't be controlled without giving consent to being controlled....
what patterns where present pre-affair in communication..
how did most arguements go..
what is different now..
who has made changes...
michdad...you keep posting links that give little to NO insight in to you..and are general broad based things with links everywhere with no specific issues that are present or were present for either of you...
you keep asking for help...
but you give little to no feedback on the advice given as to why you think it would or would not work....
you started a now four page post on this in recovery..and only posted once...how does that help you....
this forum works best if you address specifics...and it is only opinions.....
have you dad apologized to your daughter...
have you...
what did she say..
if not
why not...
mom is it true that you leave all discipline to dad or is that an overgeneralization.....
if both of you can try not to be defensive...and really use this space to look at some things...it might help....
though pep is correct about the formal counseling..
dad have you heard of some program called Every Mans battle...i think it deals with porn issues...
ark
Last edited by ark^^; 07/27/05 03:39 PM.
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Hi,
I’m a FWS. I just wanted to get that out of the way.
Your husband, it appears, was a pretty lousy one at times. It seems that he tried to step-parent two kids and wasn’t very successful. It appears that he neglected you and turned often to porn for his own sexual needs. Is that about right?
What I don’t get is what did he do to deserve you having an affair? You aren’t saying that your response to his neglect was justified are you? If you were that unhappy you really should have just divorced. An affair just cheapens you. Has the affair made your life better? Has it made you think better of yourself?
Most people that have affairs have all kinds of reasons why the did it. Many even have some pretty valid reason of why they felt so alienated from their spouses. The problem comes when one begins to rationalize the problems as excuses for poor behavior.
You, like I, probably made promises to a room full of people that we would forsake all others . . . better and for worse . . . well we broke our word. We didn’t fulfill our obligations. That is our failing and we own that.
Again there are reasons why we behaved the way we did, but there really aren’t excuses. We should have filed for divorce before we surrendered our integrity in the fashion that we did. I know that you are hurt and that you lashed out. Believe it or not, I think that your husband realizes that he failed you in many ways too.
O.K. enough of that. Have you thought about where you would like to go from here? Would you consider reconciling with your husband? Do you plan on pursuing a divorce? Have you examined why you had the affair and what has this taught you?
I wish you both peace. Remember, you both once loved each other enough to marry. Wouldn't it feel great to have those feeling about each other again? Some here can help that happen if you really wish it.
What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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Sorry if this doesn't post according to format...still trying to learn how to navigate this site. 1)in which ways did he try to control...
what did he do/say
what did you do/say
Tried to control how I interacted with the kids..cleaned house...bills..what I did with my time...my friendships...continuing school,I needed to do things this way not that way...not a good enough wife,mother,lover,housekeper. He told me he was only bringing these things to my attention to lift me up and make me a better person.
In the bigining i ask him why he was doing this to me and how much it hurt that he felt this way. It progressed to me telling him how it was hurting me and our marriage...then i started fighting back which led to arguments...then I gave up and started becoming unmotivated. He made me feel unworthy and not good enough for him. Remember this is over a 7 year span. Started from the beginning of our marriage and yes it did go on up untill i left.
2)is there porn use currently going on?
This was also something he brought into the marriage unknown to me..He says he is not. I can only take his word on it as I have nobody to expose to. He doesnt bring his computer home anymore like he used to and it's easy to erase.
you can't be controlled without giving consent to being controlled....
I never "let" him control me, fought against it..but was emotionally worn down by it..let go of alot in hopes that if i just did it his way it would make our marriage better. did enable it for staying in the marriage for so long under those conditions.
3)what patterns where present pre-affair in communication..
how did most arguements go..
I would tell him how much damage he was doing...how it hurt me, hurt us, the kids..killing my love for him. He would make promises, tell me he didn't want to be like that, say he would change, be nice for a couple of days stop yelling and pushing everyone around for a couple of days or a wekk then fall back into the same pattern and it would start all over again. I told him quite clearly how i felt..begged,cried, pleaded, but he heard me andnever listened. In my opinion he was to wrapped up in his own need for control that it just didn't matter. Knew how much our marriage meant to me and took advantage of that. Which is why he was so shocked when i left.
4)what is different now..
We are quite polite now except some sarcastic remarks about the affair. No yelling in front of the kids. The control issues are still there only now its about how i should recommit to the marriage... how long it should take me. Uses guilt and emotional warfare, says he can't do it for very long. I've asked him to not push me the councellor told him the steps to take. He's read it on this site.Says he knows what he is doing is wrong...etc. He stops for a day or couple of days and just when i start feeling like we can move forward a little the pattern starts again.I tell him he is pushing me further away by his behavior but he still continues.
5)who has made changes...
We haven't been able to get that far yet.
6)have you dad apologized to your daughter...
have you...
what did she say..
if not
why not...
She won't respond to him and has shut him out. May i say that I have never put my H down to either kids. Have always responded by telling my 11 yr old ...your dad loves you. She has rode the same rollercoaster I have tho and it has taken the toll on her.
7)mom is it true that you leave all discipline to dad or is that an overgeneralization.....
No..just a statement on his part because the 11 yr old would defer to me because he would be so rough with her...screaming in her face...using force ,over dicipline (use mutiple dicipline tactics within a 10 minute span) then lose control and I would step in and say enough is enough, force him to stop. Then i would be blamed for "coddling" the kids and overcompensating. I spent and spend all day and buisness trips that he is gone with the kids. I dicipline them in a gentle but firm way and choose my battles with them. His dicipline is harsh and unnesesary. I've tried to explain that the kids will shut him out if he screams and hits and uses fear. That is exactly what happened he stopped getting positive results and the emotional problems and disrespect set in.
ark
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If you look back over my initial post you will see in the beginning that I stated that I in no way was justifying the affair and take full responcibility for it. Mearly giving some ackground info which my H failed to do in his posts. I did this so we could get some informed advice based on the facts of the relatonship. We are in the process of trying to reconciliate. as we are going to MC.
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so michdad...what have you done to show accountability that you are not viewing porn...
every man battle
a mens support group
disclosure to a minister/peace..
where are your actions to back up the words...
also michdad...are you in plan A...
a real plan A inwhich you work on yourself...
ARK
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[color:"blue"]For YOUR benifit Wife, I thought it may help to point something out to you .... You said:[/color] We are in counseling...although i do feel that in order for couples counseling to be effective H needs to deal with the prior issues of controling behavior and insecurity as well as self-centerdness as these issues that have been a large part of marriage problems. [color:"blue"]then you went on to say this:[/color] These issues are still a big part of our marriage as well as my inability to open myself up again. I feel that i need the time to do that and he is yet unable to let go of trying to control my feelings and the order of how we do that. [color:"blue"]Did you notice that in the second paragraph you cited Husband trying to control your feelings as a problem .... now go back and read the first paragraph (again).... do you see where you are trying to control Husband's feelings? It's pretty simple to recognize when our spouse is trying to exercise control over us, and not as simple to recognize when we are doing exactly the same thing in reverse. It is useful, I think, to recognize the pattern, because you can only control your part of this. Best of luck working on your communication skills/habits. Remember, you can stop the unhelpful communication habits that you personally have developed. You don't need him to stop his first. It can be unilateral and STILL make a huge improvement!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> [/color]
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Well--I will address some issuse asked and later on address some marital issues.
1) internet Porn viewing has stopped. - I do have people to be accountable to (Pastor & friend). And there really is no need to expose this like an ongoing affair (that comment was not needed and I believe stems from the exposer to om wife that we have been talkin 'bout ) but who? church? my pastor knows. My only friend knows.the Parents of our childrens friends? although I have no problem w/ anyone knowing ANYTHING about me at this point in my life...if I'm not doing something right...pull me off the road and explain or help me...and if my viewing porn has put anyone off --like not wanting to have their children spend the night or etc...I'm sorry.I also understand. I would have to consider where my children spend time too...and knowing the man of the house had vieweed porn? Hasnt most everyone? It's a problem for couples if one does it in secret-which I was doing (and I do see the diminishing returns from porn)and all other lust issues attached and caused by it. The things I viewed are not child porn or the sort- only women and strait hetrosexual stuff. Should I have stopped and addressed why I was viewing when wife said hey whats this Sh*T? YES. I'm sorry. I'm now at that place (dollar/day short)...everything seems much more important now. BTW Everyone at my work (software Co.) has their net usage monitored. My only other computer access is at home.I own this problem-it doesnt own me anymore. I keep the thought in my mind and have grappled w/ the why I desired it and why it was there. I was not healthy and really think that poeple that do alot of porn viewing have issues they should resolve too.
I'll make the next post later about my daughter...after lunch or something _i want to put more thought into it than answering calls and typing..
Me 37
Her 35
Seperated 5/14/05
Back 7/08/05
EA affair found on 5/15/05
PA affair found on 7/10/05
2 kids 5 & 11
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Hi michdad/wife,
I agree that your situation sounds rather complicated and also a resolution,if it occurs,is a long term deal here.You sound to me to one of the commonly viewed couples who have many issues but fail to communicate and solve them properly.
Don't feel badly about that since I think many couples are like this.We don't get any formal mandatory "training" for marriage or parenthood right? Unless you seek it out.Many people wing it and hope they can do a good job but are woefully incapable of being fully prepared for life's very difficult challenges.If you are able to even read a few books about marriage and parenting before they occur,you are probably ahead of the game,so to speak.
It's all about being an active participant in "bettering" your life,that of your marriage and that of your children.You can't afford to wait for someone to pull you off the side of the road or out of your head and tell you what to do.Porn is one powerful and ubiquitous, billion dollar industry problem that is,IMO,taking time and energy away from marriages and families and the fallout of even just casually viewing it can have repercussions.Personally,I would love to see Porn just evaporate forever but unfortunately,there's too many pockets being stuffed with the money made off this trade.
NO ONE goes into a marriage or relationship knowing it all or how to avoid all the pitfalls.It's something you learn through time and with education.This is where it can be exciting to work on your marriage right now because the answer does not lie elsewhere.You have to understand yourself,your weaknesses and strengths,in order for you to function in this world appropriately.If you don't,and you depend on others to show you the way,make you happy and fill voids,you will be failed and you will endlessly be looking for the answers in the wrong places.It all starts with YOU.
I hear that you both have concerns about the other but when it comes to this site and adultery/infidelity,well many of us are just very passionate that the CHOICE to be unfaithful does not rely on anything but that choice.No matter how bad you perceived the marriage prior,the choice was made to solve problems this way which is never the answer.Ever.We are all flawed human beings and blaming that fact as a reason to cheat is just plain wrong.No one is perfect,we all have some kind of baggage,we all have issues of one kind or another.Cheating always has and always will be an abominable choice to make to feel better in your life.And as we all know,it's so destructive and painful.
You both have a prime opportunity here to avoid being another divorce statistic like I am about to be and it is just horrible going though this D process.I hope you will do what you can to try.Your children deserve it,if nothing else.Seek out a PRO marriage counselor or even Steve if you can, to begin with.There is also a tremendous amount of great literature out there to help improve your marriage.If you haven't already,take a look at our MB bookstore.
Good luck.
O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
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~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
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