< My earlier thread - just 2 pages - was called 'Condoms/Trust' and leads into this one.>

I had thought BW's A or EA (not sure which) ended a month ago on her request. Then two days ago BW said OM had called again, and she had a Noncontact conversation with him. She was very tearful and grieving. That makes me think that perhaps she hadn't actually ended it a month ago.

She was much better last night. Can her grief be over that fast?!

She's been avoiding in-depth discussions with me - e.g. she's told me only a few things about their A, and said she would not tell me OM's name. I'm reluctant to press very hard for fear of driving her away to OM.

To get to today's question: I'd been planning a trip but yday told her I planned to cancel it to better support her through a difficult time. Today she sent the note below suggesting I go ahead with the trip.

I'm sure that I need to be at home with her, both to support her and so that I know how she is spending her time. I am really needing your thoughts and advice please. Many thanks in advance.

- - - -
Her email:
"..I really would really like you to go.. I think I just really need some time to myself to process all that has been going on with me. This past year has been a whirlwind of change and I just need to be by myself for a while to figure out where I am at and what going forward looks like to me. I am having real trouble doing this between work and you... It seems that I have no time to myself anymore outside of when I am working out. And, when I am working out I am not really focusing on my life. I think you feel that being there for me is helping me to work through things, but in a way I feel like you are pushing me and smothering me with your needs right now and while I know your needs are important and I really do want to meet them I have to deal with me right now. Maybe if you give me a bit of time to myself then I can give you what you need in return?!"

This email doesn't sound so good. She wants time alone because she plans on being with the other man. You'd really be in her way. Really.

Thanks Elle. That's my fear as well. I wouldn't she's the introspective type, and I don't see her navel-gazing for 3 or 4 days while I'm gone. The risks are clear.

On the other hand, could there be some benefit to giving her time away from me?

Spoke with our MC, he suprised me by saying I should go. MC said that - by having the noncontact conversation - WW made a commitment to the marriage, and I need to respect that and give her positive reinforcement by trusting her for a few days.

Any ideas on what she should do to put me more at ease while I'm gone? Phone calls every 5 minutes wouldn't work; any other suggestions? It's probably a 4-night trip.

No, she probably had an OM "fix". There was some contact.

Susan

Have you considered not going, but not telling her that you are not going?

Susan

I'm still just a clueless newbie, but this does not sound so hot. Someone else can suggest things she could do to make you feel better, but if I were in your place what would actually make me feel the most comfortable is a, shall we say, information network in place before leaving.

Everything you can feasibly do...keyloggers, phone records, friends or family to secretly verify her whereabouts at any given time. For me this would have red flags all over it, whether anything was going on or not. If you verify everything you can, then you will know whatever there is to know. (Very profound, but very true. You will either verity her increasing commitment...or you will not.)

That's a good one, Susan, maybe he could do his own legwork on this. Give 'em enough rope and they'll either hang themselves or make a pretty bow.

At least in my sitch, H is so worried I'll have a revenge affair that he wants me there with him every possible moment. He would probably go nearly crazy if I left him at this point for 4 days, and if he started urging me to go and saying that he needed time to think, I would be extremely concerned.

Watch this behavior WNH. My wife was going out of town for the day last week and was talking to me in the morning before I left for work and something about her demeanor caught my attention, very upbeat and bubbly. Went to the toll booth at lunch and lo and behold there was the OM's vehicle in the commuter lot, where she was going is there special place, she makes deliveries and he always goes with her. Later that night when I got home she was still very upbeat and I had a hard time containing myself. Follow your instincts it's amazing how you can just tell that something is amiss. My radar has become very good on this but it really sucks when they can look you in the eye and you just know.

Wow, I am new to all this too so I don't know how good my advice will be, but this sounded almost exactly what my WH said to me. He said that he had a business trip to go to, and that he need to process all that was going on. So I decided that for us to move on I needed to trust him...bad idea, he went to a hotel for the week near our home to be with her. It was a trip that was planned before I confronted him that I knew. He said that they had separate rooms and that it was to say goodbye. Even if I could believe that wholey it was almost more painful finding that out than the first time. I say don't go or like Susan said say you are going and investigate. Does not sound like this is over.

I agree with all the others... Needing time to sort out their "thoughts" is simply another way of saying, yep, it will give me unadulterated (pun intended) time with the OP.

Even Dr. Harley suggests that most A partners would "schedule a cruise together", even if just for a chance to "say goodbye" or get "closure" if the A is out in the open.

I would suggest you cancel the trip, if at all possible. If you can't, you need to let the OM's W know that you will be out of town, and your WW will be alone, hoping that she'll keep track of the OM so no meetings can take place.

Focus on "being there" for your W, without being smothering, and wanting to talk about the A all the time. Seek that sense of normalcy that previously was your marriage. Invite her to do any of those things you did when you were courting, that you KNOW she used to enjoy, and refrain from any comments about the A, unless SHE brings it up.

Keep her as busy WITH YOU as possible.

One other alternative... if she needs TIME to "find herself" perhaps she should visit her parents or sister somewhere 100+ miles from the OM's place of residence. Parents could be "very supportive" of a woman admitting to an A, who is "preparing to reengage in her marriage". If you get my drift!

No LOVEBUSTERS, care and concern without smothering, correction of those things about YOU that were counterproductive to a healthy marriage, covert vigilance regarding continued contact, and a safe harbor for a WW perhaps in Withdrawal from her A. Easy? Hell no! Necessary? Hell yes! Like Nike says... "just do it".

SD

Edited to add: Rather than starting a new thread w/each new question, you're better off staying with just one thread, so all people interested in posting to you can read the whole story without doing searches and such. You can change the "title" of the thread to reflect your current questions.....just a suggestion!

Another thought... read Gramn's thread, from the beginning, and you'll see how "textbook" these affairs are, plus, there's tons of great advice back to him from a "top twenty" list of veteran posters.

SD

Gramn's thread is really helpful, thanks for pointing it out Shattered. The advice there and throughout the board is incredible. It makes me a bit choked up to know that so many of you care and have the grace to help strangers through their difficult times.

- - - - -

Really notable contrast between MC's advice and the advice in this thread. Why? He seems to be reasonable, fair, and impartial. Maybe he's come to understand our marriage well enough that his insights are a bit different than the normal case?

If I do it MC's way and trust her, the risk of my being wrong is huge. She could fly to OM's arms in my absence, and rekindle the A.

If I do it as suggested in this thread, WW will be upset and I will have squandered a chance to add love units. Even worse, subtracted them. But the downside risk seems smaller?

MC also suggested I consider that WW has - by having the noncontact conversation - recommitted to the marriage and needs to be rewarded for that rather than mistrusted. In MB language, MC seems to think I need to add love units - which is no doubt true - and that it's worth the risk.

I may ask WW to share with me the details of her noncontact conversation (so far she hasn't), in order to better understand her state of mind relative to OM and the marriage.

As always I am very grateful for your thoughts, suggestions and advice. Thank you.

Really good observations, weneedhelp! You are learning well. You'll soon be an "expert" on a topic you never wanted to know anything about. I think most of us here on these forums use the "giving back", helping "newbies with advice we received or wished we'd received when we discovered our unfaithful spouse's affair. Actually, after reading here enough, you see the success stories, of people who go from the shock and dispair of discovery, to working through the program, who are now a year into recovery. Not that any of it is easy, and a lot of it is counterintuitive, but it works, and you have the added bonus of a worldwide support group with these forums. You don't feel like you are the only one going through this. Misery loves company, you know!

Most MC are not familiar with the MB program. Most are "old school" and they have deemed it their responsibility to make you feel better about yourself through and after the divorce. Most have no clue about the dynamics of affairs, and what went wrong in the marriage to make it vulnerable.

Dr. Harley has nailed this stuff down. The MB program works very well in your "garden variety" affairs, but does not work where there is substance abuse, physical abuse, porn or sex addiction or mental illness.

Bear this in mind in making your decision about travel. If your WW weakens in your absence, and sees the OM, it will take her back to ground zero in the withdrawal process. Each and every time. If you were addicted to heroin, and "beat it" for a week, then used ONE time, you are back to square one.

Is the trip worth the risk? Withdrawal can take 6 weeks to 6 months or longer. Read Bob Pure's recent post on taking a 6 week business trip abroad, even exactly one year into recovery. You mind find some help in that thread.

Just remember this all takes time. Your WW did not fall in this fantasy love overnight, nor will it dissappear overnight. Feelings don't vanish, they fade. It is your job to see that your WW feels safe in your presense to lean on you for support, and that she knows that the real, long lasting, true love in her life is you. It will take her a considerable amount of time to realize and admit this. So you Plan A, depositing in her LB$, and you show her by actions (flowers, thoughtful notes, thoughtful gestures, and limiting relationship talks to a couple of "scheduled" times a week) and allow her to lean towards you, rather than away. No, it's not easy. She'll not be capable of returning anything to you for several weeks, but you'll know your success by occasional remarks she'll make "like they came from her former self", rather than the alien she's become. Learn to spot those moments, and be at your most loving best at those moments. You will be able to see it in her eyes, which are probably "dead" to you now, if she'll even look at you!

Long, tedious process. Marathon, not a sprint. You will find patience you never knew you had. But this is a battle that can be won. I know, because I walked in your shoes a short 2 years ago. My FWW and I are now 18 months into recovery, and doing just fine.

Best wishes,
SD

I've just gotten to the end of Gramn's thread. Very powerful stuff. Had to wipe a tear several times at how dismal the world can be, but mostly because of the beautiful people eager to help someone they don't know. I'm not very religious, but still the people here seem like angels keeping watch. Thanks to all.

We,

I'm glad you found this site. It has helped me through some of my darkest hours.

Just wanted to add my 2cents.....

I would not go anywhere untill you have been told details about the affair or you at least know more. From what I understand you are not sure if it was an PA or EA, you don't even know OM's info and OMW info. How is it your MC is telling you to reward your WW by granting her trust while your out of town, when she has not done the same for you? How do you really know she's telling the truth. I understand she was upset when she had the phone cal with OM, but that says nothing if you were'nt present to hear the conversation.

Does she go to MC as well? ....

In any case I would need to have more info about the A before I left anywhere....and exposure to OMW would be paramount.

Best Wishes....

Rachel

Thanks all for very useful stuff. I think I'm ready to discuss the possible trip with WW now...

Whistles is right, I don't have much info. As I said, reluctant to press for fear of turning an incipient A into a real A. It was just 3 weeks old when exposed, and 7 weeks old now, and the relationship not that deep yet. I hope.

WW says she had wanted it to be a PA and she had bought condoms, but that it hasn't gone that direction. And now she's had the noncontact talk. Trying to avoid Lovebusters, I took this all pretty calmly considering.

So that's it in a nutshell. I have almost no info - e.g. I don't know what really happened since WW is my only source. And notably lacking are OM's and OMW's info. WW declined to give much more under threat of getting upset with me and being driven away. She's clearly very stressed and I think that's a real possibility. So I'm taking the slow and careful path, hoping for a bit of info here and there..

Thanks again. Your further comments would be much appreciated.

Another question. I must have this on my mind too much.

I wanted to add that to me our case seems different from the typical case on this discussion forum, i.e. where the EA or PA has gone on for months and is deeply-entrenched.

If it's really different that the usual, does it call for revising the usual Plan A/Plan B approach?

Right now, don't beleive a word uttered by your W.... they will tell outright lies, tell mistruths, throw smokescreens, and use any defensive manuever to avoid the painful truth, all under the guise of "not hurting your feelings".

If you are going to take this trip, make a trip to Radio Shack and get a phone recorder that records both sides of a phone conversation and hide it in your house. Likewise, purchase a full version of a keylogger software package (Google keylogger), which will record every keystroke she makes on your computer, generally including passwords. If money is no object, then hire a PI to follow her movements while you are gone.

It is completely to your advantage to know as much about this A as possible, and find out to what extent you have been deceived. To know the enemy is to better be able to fight the enemy. Most WS's will deny everything, even when confronted with irrefutable evidence. Save ALL the evidence you collect, because you never know when you will need it. Make copies of everything, and keep the originals SAFE. I recorded a 26 minute conversations that absolutely confirmed her last A, and she denied there was anything even inappropriate on the recorder. Unbelievable...this coming from a woman who was a church deacon for 5 years. Do not underestimate the ability of a wayward spouse to connive and deceive you.

At this time, your WW cannot, nor should not be trusted.

JMHO
SD

Posted at the same time as you.... edited to add... you only know what she's told you, so you know very little, truthfully. You should figure this is "just like all the rest of the A's" because that's how it generally turns out. Very few A's are "unique". Plan A for now!

Lots of download here. I need to get this on paper. I'm excited and energized!

Just had a short talk with WW tonight. I had it wrong. She was the one who tried to get back in contact on Monday (3 days ago). OM had gone somewhat dark for maybe 3 or 4 weeks - he was on an extended business trip WW says - and WW apparently felt a need to get back in touch. That's not good, but listen to the rest of this.

WW said she sent OM an email Monday (from her work computer) asking him to call her. She says she had in mind something like a NC conversation. But he emailed back a NC letter! They they had a couple more emails, but no conversation Monday.

So it turns out when WW was so emotional Monday at the MC's office, it was apparently because OM had blown HER off rather than vice versa. Again this is not good since it seems to indicate she's still emotionally attached to him. All this is according to her; my only source.

Tuesday she sent another email but got no response. Either Monday or Tues she tried to call him but he didn't come to the phone. So she sent her own NC email to him on Tuesday.

I'd love to see that. I asked, but she said she'd always deleted all their emails. She said over the 7-week course of the EA (or possibly PA I suppose) there have been maybe 20 emails round trips, none of which she kept. I asked why, she said something to the extent that they were incriminating and could be used against either of them.

WW says at the onset of the A OM had made it clear to her that she was to be very careful and not save anything. She thinks he's a player and has been around a few times. I think that has to be really really really really good since it indicates he doesn't want a long-term A. Love 'em and leave 'em (I hope).

She said it was a bit of fun at first, but that she's "not sure she'd do it again". ACK! Not really the fully-committed pledge of eternal loyalty one might hope for! I said that we need to work together to make sure she would decline the next invitation from whatever other guy, saying something to the extent that she and I are fully committed, and deeply in love, and meet each others needs continually and she wouldn't dare to jeopardize a beautiful marriage. She said (noncomitally) 'yes there was a time when we were like that'. Again, less than one might hope for, but at least it's something.

Whew! I think that's about it. I needed to download that.

Not sure what's my best course of action right now; I've been trying to send her strong signals that I'm eager to change and work hard to meet her ENs. We've agreed to work through the HNHN book - or possibly the 5 Love Languages or some other book - together at a relaxed pace so she doesn't feel pressured. But really she seems disinterested in that project so I haven't pressed.

Today I sent her flowers at work; which she appreciated.

Thanks to all for your gracious sharing. May I ask for another round? Please?