No further info. I think both WW and OM sent each other NC letters 10 days ago. It seems to have stuck so far.

I'll mention again that OM is a playboy, who (WW says) has had several As. I think that's good. If he's done with WW, then it makes WW to go through withdrawal. Yes?

Weneed

You might want to consider the following in addressing this OM situation. I am not sure what you have articulated to her about your need to know who OM is, but let me offer you some thoughts to discuss with her.

1. You not knowing who OM is leaves you blind and defenseless: You cannot protect your marriage, yourself, and yes even her from further attempts by him to reengage her.

2. You are blind to any meetings you may have with this man either through professional situations or just plain bad luck and accidents and that is highly unfair to you. YOu will go through life wondering "is this the guy, is that the guy" and it will make her attempts much harder to rebuild the marriage and regain your trust.

3. She clearly has chosen to protect HIM over protecting you, so no matter how much she says she wants to be married to you and loves you, it is clear YOU are her second choice. How would she like to go through life knowing she was YOUR second choice.

4. Other people know, right? So they will ENJOY the encounters that may occur or simply the discussions that might include the OM while you are around, KNOWING you don't know who they are talking about.

I could go on, but I would suggest you write out a note to your W and enclose some or all of these points. Her failure to be open and honest with you leaves you forever blind and defenseless, and that is not a good thing for your spouse to be IF one wants a good marriage.

Give her that letter and don't ask her a thing, let it seep into her mind that she has basically slammed a door in the face of your marriage and told you that honesty and openness are NOT welcome.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Agreed JL. Have made point 3 repeatedly, in almost those words. In our situation the other points may be less relevant.

WW says it's not that I'm second choice, but rather she fears that at some point I would lose self-control and call OMW (despite my promise not to), damaging OMs marriage.

WW doesn't think he deserves that since 'hes a nice guy, and nothing really happened, it was a flirtation or fling rather than an A'. As you can imagine I don't see it quite that way, but it wouldn't be smart of me to say that to WW right now.

I suspect she will reveal at some time down the road when she feels point 3 more acutely. In the meantime I'm amazed that she doesn't see it.

I'll mention that MC asked me 'given that you promised not to use the information, how would that information help you? It gives you no control unless you use it, and what other benefit to you could there be?' Good q; is there any benefit unless I use it to reveal him?

Working hard at trying to avoid LBs and meet her ENs right now. Pretty much rolling over for anything she wants or asks for; now is not the time to quibble over little things.

Weneed,

If you MC asked you how the information could help you other than in revenge, you need a new MC. I am not kidding. Look at ALL of those points again. Will you ever go to a function with your W and not wonder if OM is there? Will you ever go anywhere and meet someone and wonder if that is OM? It will get worse.

Further, your W's assurance that you are not second choice because she has chosen to protect OM and HIS family rather than you and YOUR family is sort of weak isn't it? By this very choice she is telling you that her concerns for OM trump your desire to know who she betrayed you with. The least she could do is tell you who this person is, so that if you detect his presence in your life or marriage you can protect yourself and your family.

Your MC is not a very intelligent person, and your W is blowing smoke. KNOWLEDGE IS NOT REVENGE. Knowledge allows you to make decisions, assessments and take actions that will protect your family, you, and yes your W.

You might want to remind MC and your W in MC's presence she has NOT done a very good job of protecting you so far so asking you to "trust" that she will protect you from this man is a little weak.

All of those points will become or are already valid right now. You need to make them to her in writing if necessary and clearly you need to make them to your MC.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for your thoughts JL and yes I will think about it.

We live in a large city, I think it's really unlikely that we'll ever be together. But I see your point that it will play on my mind, I hadnt considered that aspect.

I don't seem to have much control over my thoughts or emotions these days. That's really taken me by surprise, I hadn't thought that this would be such a powerful emotional experience. Honestly if I'd been asked a few years ago, I would have said 'If W were to have an A I would be troubled, but would be able to take it in stride'. HA! Not even remotely close!

You're right, WW's assurance is not just sort of weak, it's very very weak.

I very much want to have that talk with WW in MC, but we've done that and it was fruitless, she simply declined to share that info. Based on what I've read here, perhaps now is not the time, when she's just 10 days into withdrawal? Although she seems fairly reasonable right now, from what I read here she is fogged, confused, unable to reason clearly or take my welfare or the welfare of our family into consideration right now.

WW has me so screwed up...Today I picked up something for her to save her a trip, and got yelled at for it. Last week in MC she said what's been missing in our M is surprise and delight. She wants to be 'surprised and delighted'. How can I meet her needs when they're inconsistent and change randomly?

Don't even try to guess. While the WS is in the fog, they are completly nuts. They can switch from sweet to OMG in 5 tenths of a second.

Always figure, regardless of their response, that anything you do to make deposits in their LB$ is good. It's not any ONE thing you do, it's cumulative, all the things you do add up, and start to make a difference.

The longer she stays in this volatile state of mind, is an indicator she is still in contact with the OM, hence another reason to find out who he is, and contact his W.

But keep up with the deposits, and don't let her anger outbursts affect you an any way. No Love Buster's.

Stay on track and keep posting for help, and you'll get there....

SD

Think Boundries!

Your boundries are weak and your wife is blasting through them at will. You must do the following"

She writes an no contact letter that is accepatble to you, you both sign it and you mail it to him.

Obviosly to do the above, you must know who he is.

Her contention that your revealing the affair would hurt his marriage is nonsense. His marriage is already hurt. That reasoning is like a person who has a disease but doesn't get it diagnosed. He is still sick! How can the OM's wife help him to improver their marriage if she doesn't know how sick it is and what the disease is?

Your wife shows all the signs of NOT letting go of the affair. Either she is still seeing him, or has some hopes of seeing him again in the future, maybe when things are patched up with you. Not fixed and recovered with you, just patched up.

JL, is right. Fire that stupid marriage counselor if he really believes you should not know OM's identity.

My ex wife had an affair and believe me when I tell you that they will lie and distort reality to any extent necessary.

Remember, Boundries! Take a firm, loving stand for yourself. Stop trying to be the nice guy and please her hoping she will reward you by not cheating on you. You don't need her approval, She needs yours.

Two quick thoughts. First, your health and maybe your life are in danger. If he is a playboy, he may contract a disease, give it to your wife, and then she passes it along to you. Do you really want to have herpes for the rest of your life? Especially, if you wife continues the affair, leaves you and you have to date again? Think about this.

Protecting your health is another good reason she must give you his name and let you contact his wife. Ignorance can kill you or ruin your life forever.

Second, Assuming he goes onto another woman. Is that a satisfactory ending for you: "My wife is back with me because the OM found another woman to fool around with". This is good???

See what this means? She did not end the affair because it was the right thing to do and she wants to do it, but because he ended it for another woman. She is still into the idea that the affair is somehow OK.

AAAAAGH! This woman is driving me crazy! It's my MENTAL health that's in danger first!

Not sure if I have the stength to keep being nice to this **person** while she's being so outrageously nasty to me! Gad what a sarcastic snotty mean-spirited mouth she has. Starting to think we'd be better off apart. Why do I want to face this attitude for another 40 years?!

Thanks as always shattered, you're always on-target. I claim a new record; 5 tenths of a second was the old record, we shaved a few tenths tonight for sure!

Major LBs tonight. She bit me hard (figuratively, she's a little like living with a snake you have to expect to get bit from time to time), and we recovered to have a pretty nice evening. That's a first, and a major victory for our M. Then at bedtime my hard feelings that had been festering 6 hours boiled over and I LBd big time. I dont think I'm strong enough to keep taking this *stuff* without fighting back!

And it's not even because of the A, it's just because she's a snotty nasty unloving mean *person* a significant part of the time.

Justin you're right, it's true that she often feels justified, while (rarely) other times feels ashamed. So how can I argue, without committing LBs or failing to meet her ENs? Do I just sit here like a mushroom continuing to get *stuff* spread all over me while smiling sweetly? This is going to kill me!

I also don't see how to make your ideas operational; help me please! How can I get her to write the NC letter if she flatly refuses? She says she's done it already and won't do it again, and anywa doesn't want me to see anything incriminating in writing. How can I get any of this to happen? Pie in the sky! May as well ask her to grow wings and become a sweet angel of a wife; that's not going to happen either.

Geez this is driving me crazy.

<venting continues, this could go on all night!> Plus I had to cancel the dang trip; kids don't get to see grandma or vice versa for another few months. Its really unbelievably messed up that I have to protect WW's ENs and avoid LBs at such a cost to me and others.

Id like to just tell her to decide right now whether she wants to be married to me or not. If no, vaya con dios. If yes, start acting and talking like she loves me right dang now. No more saying 'I love you' talk is way too cheap, and those words are ridiculously starkly contrary to her unbelievable mouth and actions.

<and yet more> and it's not even the dang A. That I can get over eventually. But her nasty attitude will forever far outweigh the lingering bad feelings from the A.

Oh, it's all about the A. Don't kid yourself.

The emotional turmoil she's in is a gagging emotional cocktail filled with the following...

* She thinks she's in "love" with the OM and doesn't want to give it up.

* She's still attached to you, but not in the normal sense, and doesn't want to think about letting you go.

* She's angry at herself for letting herself "stoop" to having an affair.

* Her guilt is overwhelming.

* She KNOWS the right thing to do is drop the OM, and return to the marriage, but doesn't know how.

* She feels like a cheap slut, and doesn't want to "admit" to feeling the role she's just played.

* The easiest way to deal with all of these emotions is to displace her discomfort right onto YOU. It's a short term "feel good", that accomplishes nothing.

What do you do?

When she looses it, you walk away, and don't engage. Every time you give in and "fight back".. she wins, and the recovery process is set back.

Define your boundaries. When she gets to that point, emotionally detach... easy cuz it's "NOT" your W, it's a crazy alien"...and say something to the effect of .."You are my wife, and I'm 100% dedecated to saving this marriage, but, I cannot endure the anger you have. I'm going to find something else to do (your choice here) and do it till you cool off and we can speak to each other in respectful ways. Then YOU GO AND DO SOMETHING ELSE till she cools off.

Sorry to tell you this, but it's the way it is. Set your boundaries, stick to them, be respectful, keep your temper in check, and keep after it.

As I said before, this can continue until there is NO CONTACT, and withdrawal is well under way. The sooner you find out who the OM is, and expose to his W and make SURE the A is done, the better. Do whatever it takes, because there IS a limit on how much you can endure of a crazy WS. Right?

Hire a PI, enlist the help of "trusted" friends, slueth on your own, but FIND OUT WHO THE OM IS! Critically important.

Hang in there... my FWW was just as nuts... and it went on for 7 months till I finally found out who the OM was, and had a "chat" with him.... he was unmarried.

You can do this, but hunker down, it takes incredible focus and concentration, self control, and patience.

SD

Thanks all for the encouragement and ideas.

WW reiterated today that the A was never PA. Sometime early June she figured uot that he wasn't interested in a PA (I think she threw herself at him and he didn't respond as expected). She wouldn't tell me the exact date/circumstances.

She says EA ended around 1st July, and the NC letter she received 25th July was just the coup de grace. I know I'll get the 2x4 for this, but I believe her.

Today for 1st time in many weeks she asked what she can do to meet my ENs. Wow that was a pleasant shock. Haven't heard much about anything but her needs for 2-1/2 months. She already knows the answer, has for 13 years; talk to me like she loves me rather than being such a nasty shrew.

I still cant get a read on what her ENs are. Not being controlled/coerced/paternalized, not being subservient etc. But then she says all that's been fine for the last year since she went back to work. Doesn't seem to give me much to go on. I suggested we think (again) about doing the ENs questionnaire or looking the '5 Love Languages' book. Lukewarm reception.

I pressed hard for OMs identity, she will think about it.

Party at neighbors tonight. Walked home, couldn't help thinking of WW as a traitor/snake rather than a teammate. Man I totally hate this...

WW wanted to make love this morning, it was excruciating. Couldn't get OM out of my mind.

How long does it take for thoughts of the OM to quit intruding at intimate moments like that? What can I do to speed up the process?

Thanks!

This is typically a good sign, as most women do not desire SF unless there is a "connection". She may be seeking or exploring whether that connection w/you is still possible, in spite of the A.

Time will take care of the "movies" in your head, along with some discipined thinking. When the OM tries to "move in", then think of your first, or some of the more memorable SF experience with your W.

In quiet moments, you might also ask her if you can talk with her about those thoughts, and how they impact you, but NEVER in an accusatory, judgemental or hostile manner. These talks will be sensitive, critical moments, and you must approach them tenderly, and express yourself with the most humble and loving sensitivity, or she'll become immediately defensive, if not mad. Tred lightly, as these are quicksand moments.

All this in a nutshell....."fake it till you make it"!

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks as ever Shattered. Will do as you suggest.

We're getting along well; trying to have some good to-the-point conversations (without LBs), and so far are succeeding for the most part. WW has adopted much of the MB lingo and many of the ideas. I'm very happy about that.

Scheduled a nice beach & tourist vacation for the fam. The last one reeked. Total failure. WW's head was full of visions of her new boyfriend - which she'd met 1 day before - so she was unable to function with the fam. Assuming we can stay out of debates, the new vacation should go some ways towards renormalizing things. Also it was good to know that WW didn't protest being away from OM for 7 days...she says they're NC 2 weeks now. By end of vacation it will be 5 weeks NC.

Also cancelled the other trip that had been planned without WW (see title of the thread). WW was fine with that, from which I infer she didn't have plans with OM after all. Maybe they really are in NC. I believe her on that. For now.

MC session today. WW again spent half the time explaining that she would never never never give me the name of OM under any circumstances. 'It just isn't the right thing to do'. Very high wall. (putting on my anti-2x4 helmet) things are going the right direction, and if at some point I do find out his identity I may not rock the boat by revealing.

MC wants to go back and revisit the history of our M, to search for sources of our disconnect. This is the same MC we've seen probably 20 times over the last 8 years; to me it's redundant redundant redundant but WW agrees.

All in all I think I'd rather have some strawberry ice cream, but I guess to meet WWs ENs I should agree. Could be that some good will come of it. But Marlon Brando said it well 'the horror...'

One addition..today after MC WW said that she is very happy with my kind and loving way, and that it's really clear that I'm trying to show my love and concern for her.

Mixed with loud prolonged complaints from WW that I've been far too persistent re asking OMs identity.

Weneed,

Your W is a fool and her obstainence will eventually harm the marriage more than she realizes.

God Bless,

JL

PS: The worst thing she could do is keep secrets especially when YOU KNOW there is a secret.