weneeedhelp, JL is right, keeping secrets is the worst thing she can do. You can't ever restore trust as long as she has secrets with her boyfriend to which her H is not privy. That is a betrayal of trust on top of the adultery. The solution to adultery is honesty, not more lies and secrecy. This is information to which you have a RIGHT to know since it is about your life.

Yah JL I know. But Ive tried all the (very sound!) arguments I can to make her see that and have failed so far.

I think she thinks keeping quiet is the civilized thing go do, kind of a gentleman-never-tells sort of thing. Plus I believe she sees it as a sort of minor A not fully worth in-depth discussion since (she says) it was purely EA never consummated.

The history of As in WW's family is probably relevant to those with a psychological bent; one parent was wayward, 3 (of four) siblings were betrayed, and now WW.

Different story with my fam. Zero experience with As - that I'm aware of - which may be why its a struggle for me. Haven't seen this before personally.

wecanhelp, why not explain to her that keeping secrets from you is another form of betrayal which only prevents recovery and because of that, you will need to know the facts. Recovery cannot take place unless trust is restored and trust cannot be restored as long as she has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy. Full honest, disclosure is the solution to infidelity, not more deceit.

Perhaps your MC should explain this to her?

Thanks to Melody and all for your help and for taking the time to post here. Will continue following your advice as much as I can.

No new developments today, but one thought. I'm aware that several MB participants say something to the extent that "most affairs are the same", or "your A probably isn't different". But still I think in our case it may be different from the typical case in this forum. If so, does it call for a bit different approach than the usual MB recipe?

Four reasons. (Kind of hard to put on paper, it doesn't look so good in writing).

(1). No love between WW and OM. In most other cases I see here, WW and OM are in love. In our case WW was just out for a good time, it was lust/fun not a love affair. There never was any deep-seated attachment between WW and OM, and at most WW would have liked (paraphrasing her words) a longer-term extramarital A leading only to a bit of fun since I'm not that much fun anymore.

Q. Plan A/Plan B seem not quite on-target in such a case?

(2). WW was seemingly the pursuer, and OM was a half-hearted pursuee. (E.g. OM was the first to sent a NC letter and he did that pretty quickly). That seems unusual; elsewhere in MB it seems like both WW and OM are avidly pursuing each other.

Q. Same question as above.

(3). EA; WW would have liked PA but not consummated (according to WW). WW would have liked it go to on a bit longer and have a bit more fun before it was revealed. WW admits she would have liked it to be a PA, so I wonder if she is disappointed in her A experience. Makes me worry if she may try a repeat in order to get the PA part under her belt. (sorry, bit of sarcasm leaked out).

(4). Unusually short-term A. Total duration was just over a month before OM started to cut off WW.


For me, #1 especially contrasts vividly with what is elsewhere on MB, where the A is about love and deep deep emotions, rather than fun/lust in our case.

I'm not trying to say that it wasn't an A, or that it was less important. Nothing like that. Just nothing that it may be a bit different from the MB norm, and wondering if different approach makes sense.. Thx for your thoughts!

weneedhelp, there really isn't anything different in your W's affair from what we usually see here. Marriage Builders principles would most definitely apply. However, Plans A and B are for an ongoing affair; that is not the case here.

Your focus has to be on recovery, especially radical honesty. I see that as a huge obstacle to your recovery right now. Here is a good article that discusses the Four Rules to maritial recovery that might be helpful.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Weneed,

I thought I would amplify what you have just been told. There is nothing new here. Permit me to explain. You said
Plan A is about meeting your W's needs and avoiding LB's. What is her need? To have fun and it is such a need that she violated her vows to you to get it met. You need to address this. Why are you not so much fun any more? What would change this perspective? You need to consider plan A more carefully with regard to your meeting her needs.

Apparently the A is over, but her need for "fun" is not. Do you want a repeat of this behavior? YOu cannot control her but you can do your best to meet her needs. So while you don't need plan A/b to end the affair, you sure do need the processes of making your marriage better and more fulfilling.

Next you state
Actually, in all of my years here it is rarely 50/50. Someone pursues the other. Eventually they both agree they enjoy the affair in then actively lie, cheat, and obscure to continue the affair. Nothing new here my friend.

I think you concerns are valid. Just because the A ends it does NOT mean that recovery begins. Hence the admonition to use plan A and meet her needs. She is NOT back in the marriage if she does not realize that having a PA would be a really bad idea. You could of course ask these precise questions, as I believe she is willing to talk to you but NOT give you OM's name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Recovery begins when she agrees along with you to work on your relationship and marriage.

Then you state
Harley states that most A's end within 6 months. Your W's did, so it is pretty normal. So what is the "different" approach you want to use?

I think Weneed that you are still in the middle of withdrawal and you have not started recovery. Work on meeting her needs and really find another MC. The one you have is going to fail you both.

God Bless,

JL

Greetings Friends: Again, what make me think things are different is the absence of any emotional connection. Lust only, no love. Also there's no need to break up the A since OM already did, out of fear. (I think some of my guesses must have come pretty close to the mark, making him worried enough to call it off).

That's good; but the bad bit is that WW has said she would have liked her fun to continue a bit more. OM also may have appetite if it weren't for his fear. So I want to keep him afraid. Anything that ends his fear is bad for our M. N.B. revealing the relationship would obviously end his fear of being revealed, and I can imagine it might induce him to take up again with WW. That's MY fear.

Unless that worst case happens, there's no question of a Plan B. I intend to continue Plan A. Making some progress there. Aside from the usual Plan A goals, I have another, which is to try to gain info about the A - since my only source of info has been WW.

Now (at last!) to come to the point: Even without WWs help, in the not too distant future I may be able to gather enough info to have a decent guess as to who is OM. And a way to get enough supporting evidence/info that OM would be scared to death of being revealed. Maybe even enough to be useful in legal proceedings.

I'm thinking that rather than exposing OM (awaiting 2x4s) I may be better off to:
- approach OM quietly on the side without WW,
- induce him to promise not to mention to WW that I approached him,
- also to promise not to ever again contact WW or receive contact from WW,
- also induce him to give me full details of the A.

The benefit? It keeps his fear intact, which kills the A - under penalty of revealing to OMW. Also it gets me the info I would like. Also it keeps intact OMs M, which arguably doesn't deserve to die since WW was the agressor not OM.

I think I can predict the general theme of the responses. But before you respond could I ask you again to please consider that, if our case is somewhat atypical of MB cases, then an atypical approach may make sense. Eager for your thoughts, and grateful for your tremendously charitable help..

Also the benefit that - since WW would be in the dark - it avoids WW's hatred for me for identifying and revealing OM.

I'm thinking that rather than exposing OM (awaiting 2x4s) I may be better off to:
- approach OM quietly on the side without WW,

Dangerous to do... if he's already scared, perhaps he's taken measure to "protect himself" if he's approached. Typically these meetings don't go well. What if he tells you to F off, he'll do what he wants w/your W??? What will you do then???

- induce him to promise not to mention to WW that I approached him,

How would you induce him to do this? What leverage do you have, especially if your W is still scheming to see him? There is little "legal" you could do that would induce him to do anything.

- also to promise not to ever again contact WW or receive contact from WW,

What leverage do you have to hold him to this "promise"?

- also induce him to give me full details of the A.

How do you plan to do this? The only way I can think to get the OM to comply with your wishes is to have a couple of very close friends who play college football somewhere accompany you on this "meeting" and put the fear of God in him. Otherwise, if you are planning on meeting him and settling this in "gentlemen's" terms, he's already proved he's no gentleman. He has proven that he'll lie, cheat, deceive, and engage in an A with a married woman. That pretty much sums up his "character".

And I suppose you'll do all this with the "promise" that you won't tell his W of his actions with your W? And with that threat, he'll disarm your best weapon of Exposure, by telling his W that some "crazy" guy thinks he's fooling around with his W, and make up some story that will make you look like an IDIOT when you do finally Expose to his W.

Never negotiate away your most valuable weapon, the power of exposure. If you do, you will live to regret it. I've seen it here a hundred times in these forums.

Stay on course, stay in Plan A, do your snooping, and when you do find out who the OM is, Expose to his W. That is the very most important thing you can do to drive a stake into the heart of an affair. Period.

In spite of what you are thinking.... these A's have the same common threads, over and over and over.

Why blaze a new trail, when there is a paved road right her in your path?

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks Shattered. The inducement could be a 'smoking gun' such that OMW would - if shown - know there's been an A.

That's my inducement to OM; no college football buddies. (Although that's a happy thought! Bruno, Rocko where are you?)

Recall OM already broke off for fear of being revealed. Since that's his big fear, I'm thinking to play to that big fear. Again, that's the inducement. It seems pretty powerful, if I can back it up with a 'smoking gun' that would really open the eyes of OMW.


Why think about a different path? Because in my case the usual MB path has some downsides I may be able to finesse. E.g. if I should go the typical way
- I wouldn't get much info,
- I would really set back my Plan A progress, which seems to be going fairly well,
- I would damage or destroy OMs marriage (he's not innocent, but perhaps guilty of being entrapped)

Exposing does not interfere with Plan A. Exposure *IS* Plan A. The purpose of Plan A is to bust up the affair and exposure is the foundation of Plan A.

You won't get ANY information if you don't expose. You will probably get more if you expose becasue you will have removed any future hope of the affair, hence, no reason to continue to hide.


No, the AFFAIR has damaged his marriage. Truth is the solution to adultery. If you tell your neighbor that his bookkeeper is embezzling money from him are you destroying him? Of course you aren't. Telling him would be an act of compassion so he could protect himself.

weneedhelp, the reason that exposure effectively ends the affair is because it causes them to see themselves through the eyes of others when they are forced to explain it. It also ensures that other eyes are watching, which greatly reduces the risk of resumption. An affair cannot survive for long under the light of day. THAT is the main reason why the OM is afraid of exposure, the embarrassment is only secondary. As long as it is not exposed, he still has the option of taking up again with your W, and likely will.

Helping the OM keep his dirty little secret only greatly increases the risk that the affair will resume. He has dumped your W this week, but he can - and probably will - pick her back up if the spirit moves him. And who will stop him? You won't. He already knows you are too afraid to expose him. And your W is free to chase him as long as his W remains clueless about the affair.

See, as long as it is kept secret, there is still a chance it can resume. Affairs can only survive if they are kept secret. And believe me, they could easily resume it without you knowing. They would just go deeper. That is usually what happens with "threats" like you propose. That is why they don't work. Threats do work in favor of the infidels, though, because you help them stay hidden, which helps them resume the affair if they choose.

On the other hand there's Measured Response. Mortarman should like that word. I can save the Nuclear option for later. I can and will use it if necessary.

If OM should resume, I could then take stronger steps. And would.

So I will not have given up my best weapon. Just saving it for if it's truly needed. No I'm not afraid to expose. Just not sure that's the best response to further our M right now.

I am concerned about OMW. But she's not my primary concern. Exposing would presumably help her - but I'm not sure it's best for WW and myself.

I'm not saying I've 100 convinced myself of this. I'm humbled by all the experience to be found here, and am eager to hear your views to help me understand better.

Neither am I 100% sure that the standard MB approach fits every situation. I don't mean that as a challenge, just an opportunity for discussion.

Thanks to all for your (hopefully) continuing help and concern.

wnh, no doubt you might have greater expertise and experience than Dr. Harley. I hope it works out and wish you the best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I'll just mention this to you. I'm a guy trying to give back .0001% of what this forum did for me. And I've read thousands of posts and it's uncanny how common and ordinary these affairs are. And it's extraordinary how using the MB philosophy to end the affair and how to work through recovery.

Melody Lane, if you'll notice, has over 10,500 posts, and I imagine she's read 10x that many. Much of what I have learned came from her posts. She is a generous and gifted contributor to these forums, not to mention tireless. When she responds to a post, she is right on the mark 99% of the time. Please take her posts to heart!

You are closest to your own situation, and you may be "reading" it perfectly. But please, learn from these forums as well. Many a BS has posted back on here how they WISH they had followed the advice given, and fully exposed the A, because contact was still in place, and many months were wasted. I just don't want to see this happen to you, that's all.

Best wishes,
SD

Nah come on now Melody that's not my attitude, and I don't think that's what I said? Not making any sort of claims about my (zero) experience or expertise.

No offense intended really. Just asking questions. I nave nothing but respect for Dr. Harley, you and others who have the kindness and grace to help strangers in trouble.

On the MB board, am I allowed to ask questions? Kick it around? Brainstorm? Try on other things to see how they look and feel?

wnh, like i said, I truly do wish you the best and hope that your plan works out for you. I, and many others, tried to answer your questions the best we knew how and there isn't much we can do if you aren't interested in our suggestions. Take care.

Listen.... don't be discouraged and begin thinking people here don't care, because that's totally not true.

These forums are based on a Marriage Building philosophy that works far better than ANY other approach to ending an affair and having the chance to have a great, if not greater marriage than before.

But when you start heading into "uncharted waters", people here are going to be reluctant to give you advice. There is already a great deal of uncertainty in following "by the book" procedures in these endeavors, and venturing off into exploratory or experimental attempts that are NOT outlined by the MB will be viewed by most as dangerous and unpredictable. And the kind folks that offer advice here will be reluctant to support you, if that's the path you choose.

Remember, this is a voluntary "service" provided by people who have been through this, and when people stray from the guidance they are given, posters are less likely to follow your progress, let alone continue to give advice that is ignored.

Just my 2 cents worth...
SD

I understand Shattered. Many thanks to you, Melody, Elle, Whistles, JustLearning, Justin and many others for your time and help.

Again, I hope all will understand that no offense is intended if I ask probing questions. It's an occasionally offputting part of my nature; usually I try to keep it in check, but sometimes I probe a bit too much.

I have deep respect for kind generous people such as yourselves that care to look after strangers in their private wilderness. In all honesty I can't remember ever having seen such an outpouring of compassion as there is on the MB site. It's really quite overwhelming, and makes me very emotional. And it's affected my view of mankind.

Whatever I do, I certainly won't ignore the sage and experienced advice given so generously here. It's already been tremendously helpful and a desperately-needed support to me, and I thank you all. Please know that your words will form the basis for wherever I go with my situation.

wnh, please don't misunderstand; no one here has ever faulted you for "asking probing questions." People come here every day and ask lots of questions - we gladly answer them. Rather, the issue is that you ignored our answers to your questions in favor of your own counsel. And that is certainly your prerogative as it sounds like you didn't need help at all, but already had the answers.

I typically follow MB advice. E.g. thread started with a question 'can I travel now and leave WW at home alone'? A dozen kind responders resoundingly said 'no' and gave reasons that helped me understand. So I was able to make the (right) choice and cancelled the trip. Thanks to all for helping me avoid a big mistake.

For me, it helps if I understand the reasoning, so I ask questions. And I try on other approaches and ask questions about those too. Doesn't mean I'm not listening or not following MB advice.

On the exposure topic I'm still brainstorming; trying on an approach or two and soliciting viewpoints. Please don't be discouraged with me if I'm a slow learner. Thanks again.