wnh...it's been some time since I posted. Started a new job as a chief financial officer this week and there's some pretty big issues there!

Things appear to progressing "normally" for you. Yes, it will be painfully slow and there will be times that your frustration could get the best of you. It's the old..."one Aww...crap..negates 1,000,000 ATTABOYS!"...try not to let it happen.

wnh....your mind is not playing tricks on you!! After everything my xw have gone through...prior to my divorce and after I still have this happen to me. When we first got back together it was very frequent, many times a day. It has come back to the forefront due to her getting down on one knee and asking me to marry her. A goal I wanted for a long time...but I'm scared and I can't tell her that...I just know that with new job and this I'm not sleeping much!!

So...keep your chin up and try and stay in the drivers seat. Don't let her keep you in a down mood...with grunts and being a door mat...I know it's not easy...remember...I failed at this once...and WE got a second chance....

good luck wnh...

wnh

Every "grunt" of "approval", is a tiny sign from her that she KNOWS she's better off now, out of the A, and back in a relationship with you. Take the grunts as a positive sign, however, so long as she's in withdrawal, don't look for things to be "rosy". Accepting your invitation is FAR better than any other option she COULD have chosen.

She simply does not know how to "return" to you, what with all the guilt, confusion, grief (yes, for the OM, sorry!), and knowing how LOW she's stooped in her life, is still an emotional cocktail she doesn't know how to manage. This takes whatever time it takes.

So you continue with Plan A, accept the positive grunts, include her in you and your kids lives at every opportunity, and things will steadily improve. Trust in this, because this is how it works. If you see her in a particularly "down" moment, and things are quiet, cautiously ask her if she like to share any of her feelings. Most likely, she will not. But if she does, SHUT UP, LISTEN CAREFULLY, sort through the FOG, and listen for clues as to what she looking for, in a chance to return to the marriage. You may get very mixed messages, sometimes hurtful words, but clues WILL exist. Be extremely cautious NOT to say anything judgemental, critical of the OM, or any other type of LoveBuster. Just LISTEN!

Pick up on those priceless "needles in a haystack" and put them to use in your journey to recovery.

Good job on the night out for burgers...job will done!

Still pulling for you at every turn...
SD

Thanks Send and Shattered. And congrats on the new job Send. Very happy for you. Sounds like a rewarding challenge.

Bought some new clothes today, she'll wonder what's up with that. Underwear too, just to make her curious. Also have been working out, down 20 lbs. Didn't someone call it the 'infidelity diet'?

Tonight we're kidless. We'd talked about maybe going downtown for live music, but as the time drew nearer I chickened out. Would have been a 5-hour commitment for just the two of us; too risky for me. I can't keep from LBing that long. Heck I can't even keep the A out of my mind for 10 minutes!

So instead we're going to a nearby pub for a little live 60's retro music. Probably 3 hours max; much safer. Will be the 1st time the two of us have been out together w/o kids since real NC started. Hope we don't hit any icebergs - wish us luck! I plan to try to make it fun, which implies avoiding any R talk. Unless Babe really wants to talk then I'll listen carefully as you say Shattered. Thanks again.

Send: Did she just do that? Asked you to remarry her? Wow! When did that happen?

wnh...yes, she did ask me this week. I moved back into her house (my "old" house) in late May. My house was sold, at a heavy profit I may add, yesterday. Remarriage has been a goal and I would not have moved back if I did not want that to happen. However, for some reason I am really scared...I have almost stsred a new thread seeking advice....just really short on time...

The diet?? I lost about 70 pounds on the "divorce" diet **LOL**

I just got rid of my old clothes while moving...take care of your self..

wnh... Retro 60's music, eh? Heck, I'd have gone with you to that! Here's hoping the evening went well. One other note, something you probably already know...careful about alcohol consumtion...makes it TOO easy to fall into previous patterns, LB's and such. Two drinks can unleash a temper that has been firmly under lock and key! You know the saying... loose lips sink ships. I learned this one the hard way!

Give us an update when you have time.

SD

Just read your note SD. You ARE impressive. Were you there last night? You must have been. I got well and truly lubricated. Very rare for me, I'm not sure how it happened. I really didn't have that many brews. Does Warsteiner have a particularly high alcohol content? Or maybe the workouts have somehow reduced my alcohol capacity.

Happy to report no loose lips, no anger, no verbal LB, no R or A talk. I'd say we both had fun until I got so lubed up the Babe had to drive us home. I'm sure that was a negative, what woman wants to drive a sloppy date home? Still, I think the night was a small success.

Pretty good band. Beatles, Elvis, Everley Bros.. We sat at the bar and talked with a few strangers. Just about the right setup given the situation; casual, easy, busy, crowded etc. No quiet time where one of us might have been tempted to fill in with R or A talk. Talked a bit about her job and the kids, she always loves those topics.

<DJ here: Of course she has never ever been one to talk about me or my interests for more than one sentence at a time. Just not interesting to her, she'd always rather change the subject to talk about herself. Just part of the Babe package, I'm usually okay with it, just occasionally it's a bit irksome.>

It's strange, sometimes things feel nearly normal on the surface - like nothing ever happened. (Until we go to our separate rooms for the night). But there's a lot going on beneath the surface. And since we're not doing R or A talk we don't really know what each other is thinking. No idea if she's thinking of me as a date, or a husband, or just a pal to hang out with on Sat night, or is planning her D strategy, or what! It's NOT driving me crazy. Yet. But I feel a need for more info before too long.

IC tomorrow. Last week he'd asked me for my drop-dead walkaway boundaries. I still don't think I have any one single boundary that, if violated, could cause me to walk away. It's more the overall feeling of the M. If there's going to be love and respect then count me in. If not, then I'm out. The tricky bit is determining/predicting which of those is going to prevail for the next 30 years. Does anyone have a crystal ball?

Maybe I'll just log this one thought: Sometimes I have an odd feeling that her D thoughts were some sort of weird psychological defense mechanism. Preemptory strike. She may have convinced herself that I would D her b/c of the A. And that may have caused her to think preemptory D. "He can't D me, I'll D him first!" kind of thinking. Could anybody think that way under a lot of stress?

Yes, yes and yes.... you are becoming so insightful to all this. A very positive sign that this will all work out.

Try this, when YOU think the timing is right. Purchase a bottle of HER favorite scented massage lotion. Nothing overtly sexual, just a massage oil. Tie a ribbon around the neck of the lotion bottle. Purchase one long stem rose, in the color of her choice, and leave the two on HER bed, with a handwritten note, entitling the "bearer" of the "coupon" to a massage...no strings attached. Signed... Love, weneedhelp

Who can refuse a nice sensuous massage?

No sexual moves at all... unless she leads ALL the way. This is all about GIVING, not RECEIVING.

Thoughts?

SD

Thx SD. Nice idea, but that's probably well in the future.
I have been wondering how we'll come back together in the same bedroom with all the intimacies. Also wondering whether I should keep her at arms length until she is really remorseful.

Next move is to give her a couple of framed photos from our Cape Cod vacation. She particularly liked Nantucket, so I also got her a nice glossy Nantucket book full of pics. I exposed to OMW just one week after we came back from vacation (b/c Babe and OM were still in contact). The A's exposure probably wiped away nice memories of that trip, but my hope is that the pics & book will bring some back.

SD: Rereading some of your posts made me think of a little project to add love units. Thanks! The Babe is flying on business tomorrow - 1st time since that danged convention in May where she and OM hooked up. So anyway the boys and I crayoned a card for her, with pics of airplanes, airports etc. And 3 stick figures waving at the plane saying 'we miss you' and 'fly safely'. She'll see it before she goes to the airport tomorrow morning. Cold-blooded shameless manipulation. But also plain old-fashioned love for Mom/wife.


New topic: A few pages back you'd posted this:

I hope you don't mind a question? Assuming for a moment that our M survives, I expect the Babe's nature - and mine - are such that we'll also have a few come to Jesus moments over the next few years. I hate thinking of it. Is it unrealistic to expect a repentent spouse that is fully committed? And to expect that we won't have to worry further about EAs, or PAs?

More generally, how do you feel about those come to Jesus moments? Thx as always.

wnh, all the vets always say "baby steps" and that is what you are doing. Don't let the hurtful talk get to you since they can't reason well righ now.

Hopefully you will be able to return to the same bed sometime soon. That will be a huge step forward. I'm in the same bed, but it is as if we are sleeping in seperate rooms anyway. My W told me that it "makes her nervous" when I roll over by accidnet next to her. I have heard so many hurtful things come out of her mouth in the last few months that they just don't bother me as much. Take them with a grain of salt.

It's great you had a chance to go out with babe, keep it up. The more quality time you spend with her the better chance of breaking down her wall. I'm afraid to ask my W out since she rejected my last time. I'll wait a week or two before I try again.

My W is also going away on business (without OM I know this for sure) and I also placed a card in her luggage from the kids with pictures they drew and that said "have a nice trip" and "we miss you". It's funny how similar our situation really is. Hopefully that will make some deposits in her LB. I'm also trying to think of something for her return, like some welcome home flowers teddy bear from the kids of course.

Sounds like you are doing better, so keep it up.

Great touch Hope. She may not give you a nice visible reaction, but you have to know she'll at least smile.

See my update on the "Recovery" forum, to a couple of folks who came here around the same time I showed up.

No, it's not unrealistic to expect a repentant spouse that is fully committed.

No, you always need to "worry" about further PA's or EA's. But only indirectly. What you worry about is employing Dr. Harley's principal to your marriage, and keeping it growing and moving forward. Most of us are here because we became complacent in our marriages. Life got busy, and we forgot to pay attention to the one who was SO important we asked them to spend the rest of their lives with us. Then we began to take them for granted. No, we didn't hold a gun to their head and say go have an affair, but most Wayward Spouses felt neglected or abandoned to some degree, and made some horrible decisions when faced with situations in which some boundaries were challenged. Remember that word, boundaries? I know you do... just poking some fun at/with you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Those come to Jesus moments? Well...Plan A is a great and positive influence on a WS. Lovebuster's typically push a WS away..... however....we are all human, and we all have our limitations. Sometimes we have taken enough [censored] from our Wayward Spouse that we cannot contain it any more. I'll admit, there were a couple of times, I just lost it, and unloaded on my WW. Yeah, it was ugly, and yeah a lost of nasty things were said, and none of them totally undeserved. Yeah, it pushed her away, but, it did allow me to convey some thoughts to her in a passionate way, that Plan A would perhaps not have done. And I always apologized soon after, when cooler heads prevails. My WW had some choice remarks for me, in return, that were pretty painful, though some WERE right on the mark and deserved by me, as well.

Those LoveBust fests only occurred a couple of times. Now, what I mean by a come to Jesus meeting, is where I have reached a point of frustration with my W's efforts towards a better marriage. A wayward spouse is really quick to think all this CRAP can just be swept under a carpet, and life can go on, but they are dead wrong. A BS has to extract a certain amount of "vengence", in the process of getting to a healing stage. A BS has suffered so much, and in so many ways, I feel most WS's have no idea how wracked and wrecked their Betrayed Spouse becomes. It is not a concept they are able to understand. They are 180 degrees away, and thinking at the time, THEY are the victim in all this, in a totally convoluted way. FOG! But now, in my state of recovery, a come to Jesus meeting is my way of making my W understand that I have to be happy in this marriage, too, and I will be the one, if necessary, to be confrontational (respectfully and within MB principals) to generate the postive action that is necessary to move forward. I hope that makes sense?

Even perfect marriages have confrontations. It's how those confrontations are handled, and resolved that makes the difference.

You have come a long way in this process. You are doing a fabulous job of understanding the MB concepts. You are staying positive and upbeat, even in the face of debilitating circumstances, and you should be very proud of your efforts. Those who come and ask for help, then argue every point and all the guidance they are given, fall off the boards rather quickly. Those who truly buy into the program and do it with a vengenence, come out of this experience a much wiser and stronger person, whether their marriage survives or not. When the marriage survives, it is often a stronger, more fulfilling marriage than was had before the affair.

Hope that helps. Sorry you asked? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes,
SD

Not sorry I asked SD. And thx for the thought you put into your response. For my part I'm not thinking clearly yet, so big grain of salt for the following..I WANT Babe to never do anything like this again, without me having to tell her my boundaries, guide her, manage her behavior, give her feedback, no Come to Jesus talks etc. In a really good marriage shouldn't most of that be unnecessary? Shouldn't we love and respect each other enought that we intuit how to act, what to do etc. without much of that management by spouse? Or am I too optimistic? < Edited: I just reread this and think I'd better put on my anti-2x4 helmet!>


Back to the present: On the same-bed subject, I don't know if I want her in my bed just yet. It would add love units to renormalize, but I'm thinking I may not want to renormalize until I get the right message from the Babe re: remorse, contrition and commitment to me. Six weeks ago she'd said - extremely belligerently - "I've confessed, repented, and now I'm ready for you to forgive me!!!!" And then she secretly continued contact. So I feel like she hasn't really confessed or repented yet. So how can I forgive.


New topic: Babe got reamed by her manager today; then she called me for support. Of course I was 100% in her corner and against her manager - she was looking for support, not an objective opinion. I think it's a really good sign that I'm her go-to guy for moral support when external forces cause her pain.

She also thanked me for my role in the kids' card to her. That wouldn't have happened a few weeks ago, so my read is that she may be defogging a bit.

In my down moments I worry about my Nightmare Scenario: She and OM take up their R again, but out in the open this time. Could happen - recall that OM and OMW aren't tight, and OMW is definitely not meeting OM's needs. So what's he supposed to do anyway? If I were him, I might be tempted to make a renewed push for the Babe. She never truly renounced him, and the only thing that's keeping them in NC is that he decided he would reject all attempts by the Babe to contact him. (Per OMW). The thought that he might change his mind about shutting Babe out gives me shivers. Nightmare on Elm Street.

IC tonight. More later.

I WANT Babe to never do anything like this again, without me having to tell her my boundaries, guide her, manage her behavior, give her feedback, no Come to Jesus talks etc. In a really good marriage shouldn't most of that be unnecessary? Shouldn't we love and respect each other enought that we intuit how to act, what to do etc. without much of that management by spouse? Or am I too optimistic? < Edited: I just reread this and think I'd better put on my anti-2x4 helmet!>

Live could be grand if we never had to take off the rose colored glasses. Reality is, very few wonderful things come to us without effort. And the things in life that we are most proud of, and that have the most value to us, are the things that we've worked hardest to get. Why should marriage be any different?

No 2x4's...just a friendly smack upside the back of your head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

List everything you treasure in your life, that came to you without effort.

Best wishes,
SD

wnh, Sounds like babe is softening up a little...that is great news. Keep it up you are doing great!

She is coming to you for support and thanking you for things you did. Those things probably would not have happened a few weeks ago.

Based on what I have read from other vets, repenting will take time on her part so don't rush her. Try to let things happen and the repenting will happen later.

I think you are doing great.

Thx Hope. You too. Make you a deal. I won't LB or fumble if you don't.

Bad day for mail - Babe got a biking jersey, a reward for having raised $1500 of pledges for a charity bike ride. I'm proud of her for that. Problem is that's the 2-nights out ride the lying deceitful snake shared with OM, while telling me many times he was not there. And she even invited me and the kids out for dinner so we could see for ourselves that she wasn't with him. Then when we'd left her after dinner, she joined him at his hotel. With her negligee. I'm still pretty cranked up about that.

Not sure what to say or do. We haven't had an A talk since I found out from OMW, so we haven't faced that nasty topic yet. Probably the biggest lie between us right now. She should have guessed that OMW told me, but could she be deceiving herself that I don't know?

She'll be tempted to call OM to discuss how excited she is at having gotten the jersey. I hate that, and I'd prefer she did not. Why couldn't it have come around Christmas when things should be more settled one way or the other?

Might ask her if she'd not wear the jersey around me. I'd like to burn it or shred it or just chuck it out before she sees it and say nothing. But I know those are not the path of virtue. Suggestions? She'll return from her business trip tonight after my IC. Maybe I'll just hide it a couple of days until I get my head straight on this. But there's no ducking it, she's been excitedly looking for the jersey to come in the mail for several weeks now.

That will be easy for me for the next 4 days since my W is out of town <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My W gets home late on Thursday and I was trying to think of something to do for her to show her that I care. She will be really excited to see the kids so I will try to keep them up for her. Maybe we will prepare a big welcome back card with pictures drawn from the kids.

When is your W returning from her trip, or has she already returned? Do you have anything planned while she is away or for when she returns?