Just a day-trip, so nothing more than the card planned.

Sorry to hear about the jersey. Letting her know that you feel hurt when she wears it may be the best way to handle this.

NO SD or DJ or course so hopefully this won't trigger her to cal OM and it will take care of itself. Try not to get to worked up over this.

You doing great

Yah I am worked up about the jersey. If I know her, her very first thought will be to call OM to talk about it. What if he decides to take her call this time? (Twice before he rejected her call per OMW). Then we're right back in the stew. I need to think this one through a little. I just don't want to leave temptation in her path if it can be avoided.

If I were to just toss it or otherwise prevent her from getting the jersey, that would clearly be controlling behavior. I'd be absolutely guilty of what she hates most about me. Although perhaps controlling behavior in defense of the M isn't quite the same...

I guess the 'boundaries' approach would call on me to tell her my boundary about her contacting OM to talk about the jersey. But does that really work at a time when she is in all likelihood still fogged?

Discussed it with MC. He thought best to not delay or hold out, just let Babe get the jersey like any other mail. So I did. Babe came home early, I just pointed it out to her, told her how proud we are of her, and made a big deal out of her fundraising. Maybe she'll get her validation from us and not need it so much from OM. But that's also a manipulative thought.

Seems like no matter what I do or think, it's manipulative. I can't see any way around it. Also the whole idea of MB is to optimize (manipulate) to produce the best possible outcome. Really I can't see any way around the 'controlling' thing. I pull whatever levers are available to me, in order to produce what I think is the best possible outcome. So I'm a controlling and hopefully optimizing person, as are we all or we wouldn't be here.

I pressed MC pretty hard, he gave up distinguishing between controlling/coercive/ultimatums/threats and just plain old boundaries with consequences. That surprised me. Doesn't matter what you call it, in the end there's no real significant difference, at least to our MC. I haven't been able to tell the difference either. And the other threads, although grappling with the topic mightily, haven't helped this dull correspondent see the difference either.

W/r/t our M, the key point, to MC, seems to be how the boundary is received. The recipient should receive it as a boundary, then make his/her choice in full view of the consequences, and be happy with his/her choice. Unlike Babe and I, who have often held a grudge or nursed resentments.

Still not that clear to me; really struggling with this. Maybe next week will bring enlightenment? The whole topic is very complicated!

wnh, just try to look at it this way. Plan A is all about giving to your W unconditionally and without having any expectations. I know that is hard to do, but if you get your head around this it may begin to be more natural.

So I think what you have done with the jersey issue is the right approach. By not withholding the jersey and validating her effort you showed you were caring to her. Remember, you can't control what she thinks or does, but by controling yourself you can start to have an effect on her.

Plan A is hard, but like any plan it will only work if you follow it. That means giving uncontionally without any expectations. It doesn't mean you don't have boundaries.

Small bit of good news. Babe's been studying for a professional certification, one of a series. With previous ones I'd always helped her. This time I'd offered, but she'd ignored it. UNTIL TODAY! She just accepted my offer - good chance to add love units. I am pleased.

Tearing down a mountain, one spoonfull of dirt at a time....Remember, it's not any ONE thing you do, it's a cumulation of ALL the things you do.

Keep it up!

SD

That is great news. SD is right, keep on doing these little things in the hope that over time she will start to notice the changes.

Plant the seeds, remove the weeds and make the whispers...

How is everything else going? How has your interaction with your W been like the last couple of days?

Some days warm, some cool. Are we SURE she's noticing? Tired of waiting for the thaw to come. I just want to find a way to rush it up. As we said on yr thread Hope, can't be done. But dang I wish it could.

Seems like pretty often she will say something that I interpret negatively, then later find out that either I'd misunderstood, or it meant nothing. So I guess I'm a pessimist, or maybe just on guard against possible negative signals.

Hey here's an idea. I'll blackmail her. No help studying unless she warms up to me. Is that the best idea ever or what! Not.

Think of it this way. Her addiction to the OM manifests itself as a 4'x 8'x 6" slab of granite. This stands between you and the W you used to know.

Every act of love and kindness (Plan A) knocks a 2"x 2"x 2" chip out of the granite. Every LoveBuster restores about 10 of those chunks back into the slab.

Plan A, coupled with the absence of LoveBuster's will take down the granite barrier between you and your Wife.

Time, patience, effort.

Glad to see you've kept your sense of humor. Plug some of that humor into the study sessions, and watch her warm up to you, then retreat once she realizes she's doing it. Funny in a not so funny way, but I think you'll see exactly what I describe.

Be the kind, loving, caring person she fell in love with, and feed the Love Bank!

Best wishes,
SD

She's a lot tougher than granite. Hardened steel, and I'm trying to use a toothbrush to wear through it.

10-minute R talk tonight, I just mentioned I had given her a couple of 2-minute downloads in the last 3 weeks, and thought I'd just ask tonight if she had anything to share with me. Not much. She's 'just trying to keep from exploding'. Not working on the M, not working on any particular goal at least w/r/t our M. I mentioned that - when she's ready - I could sure use a partner in working on the M. Also that over time I fear failing unless I have a partner working on the M with me. She just said 'I dont know'; not bothering to look at me, and picking up a magazine.

The only feedback she had was 'thx for making nice dinners'; I mentioned I'd been working on a worthy goal - trying to build a new better M, and have been trying to do a lot more than make dinners, she said she hadn't noticed anything.

Frustrating. Man I don't know how much more of this I can take. Why am I still married to this woman? It's not a marriage and hasn't been since she started the A 12th May. Getting close to 5 months of alienation now, and no end in sight. If not for MB we would be well down the legal road by now. As it is, starting down that road can't be too far away. I'm sort of thinking 6 months is the end for me; if no progress by then I may take things in another direction.

wnh, I feel your pain and know what you are going through. SD is right by saying you have to slowly chip away at her wall. It won't happen overnight, but look for some small positive signs.

I would hold off on Plan B for a little while longer. You need to be perfectly ready for it. Maybe some of the vets can give you better advice on this.

Your W attitude sounds exactly like mine when she shows indifference, anger, coldness, distance, and annoyance.
They feel trapped and when we bring up the R-talk it makes them get angrier and prevents them from taking any responsibility for what is happening. Don't get her angry and lay off the R-talk. I know it is hard, but maybe she will start to feel safe around you and open up a little.

Right now she probably doesn't want to be around you since she has a fear of R-talk. Keep doing the small things and no more ILY, R-talk or persuing. Do something for yourself that may make her think. People who beg and act needy and clingly are not attractive to anyone. I'm not saying you are doing this, but that is how WW feel.

Just keep being kind and considerate and no LB'ing. You are probably tempted to get angry...DON'T. She will use this against you big time. She wants to justify her anger so don't give her any ammunition to do so. Try not asking anything of her for a while.

Don't give up, you are doing great!

She'd written a $300 check to 'Cash'. 1st time ever; in 13 years I've known her. Makes me wonder if it went to an attorney. Probably won't ask; I'll just wait and see the endorsement on the back when our cancelled checks are returned. Also there's another check not recorded; I can go the bank for details. Boy I hate thinking like this.

Rather than stew I asked her about it. She said she's not paying attorneys; the entry was an ATM she'd mistakenly recorded as a check to cash. Did I say 'boy I hate thinking like this?'

One of her big complaints has been now little I've been involved in the community. So I'm now a Cub Scout Den Leader, joining the Lions Club, volunteering here and there etc. The boys have noticed the change, but W seems extremely self-centered these days, and blind to everything not having to do directly with herself. Better I LB here than to W.

I would still get with the bank and make sure all transactions are accounted for. Don't let her control access to the bank accounts.

Shattered r u there? Just saw yr old comment about Dorothy/Toto territory. Me too, many years ago.

I got a bit standoffish with W after she ditched the kids and me for most of last weekend. Not trying to accomplish anything with the attitude; just letting a little of my feelings show through.

Yday W said she's going to see IC tonight; that's a change from what she said 28th Oct. I suppose that could be partly a reaction to my chilliness, but who knows. I'm kind of indifferent towards her lately. I wonder what will come of the IC, but I don't think I'll ask her or show an interest. Unless she wants to talk about it - then I'll listen.

wnh,

Boy your situation sounds so much like mine. Hang in there and keep up Plan A. It takes time and patience is the most important trait right now.

The IC is a baby step. Keep looking for these baby steps to give you some hope. It won't all happen at once so you need to just keep Plan A'ing your butt off for now.

I know it sucks, and you feel like a doormat, but we were told that is what to expect.

I backed off from my W also, but brought up the R-talk last night. I was just feeling really unsure and needed to talk about some things. Everytime we talk the same issues come up and she gets sad. YOu would think I would learn by now and stop the R-talk.

So keep your chin up and NEVER give up.

Thanks htw. It really seems like we're walking the same path now. Wishing us both success. Saying that made me think of what IC often asks: "What does 'success' mean to you, how do you picture it, how do you define success?" I'm not clear in my mind yet, but at least it means a mutually supportive, mutually respectful, mutually loving and exclusive R.

I have my own IC Monday with the same counselor W is seeing. Could be I'll get some info then re what W is thinking; that will help me avoid R talk with W.