Westy, Study the principles here. Start looking into the things you need to do.

I do want to offer this, because you brought it up. And I believe it is probably a HUGE reason why you guys arent making it. You said you lived together as husband and wife, but werent husband and wife. Westy, there is a HUGE difference between the two. You couldnt live together as husband and wife. You couldnt have even come close to that.

A marriage is altogether different than living together. And I think that the major problem with what has happened here is that you havent been married, but tried to have it both ways. Here is what Dr, Harley says about this:

Dr. Harley on living together

Anyway, good luck. Study up. And give it your best shot.

In His arms.

Brother!

You asked for me state my case of what I call 'life excuses that I have' (yes, I am embarrassed by my lack of ability to overcome them - it has been a long time & I am an adult after all)
Here goes.....

8 yrs old - parents begin a nasty pre-divorce period which lasted 8-9 yrs.
13 yrs old - we move from our quiet, sleepy country town (reasonably anyway) with its known quantities (I was successful in school, friends, sports, community involvement well known and even at that age respected for my own deads and often in the paper....ie. a place were I was king - for a 13 yr old). We moved to ******. A tough mining town, with extreme racism (never knew it before), violence, etc. It was a real eye opener.
14 yrs old - Alcohol (got drunk at the hands of my mum), drugs, gang violence (I finally stopped being harrassed and assaulted by a local gang by crossing a line and beating the crap out of one of them one day - thank god the others didnt jump in like I thought they were gonna do). All these things experienced for the first time.
We were living rough, without an actual home for more than a while at a time until I was 16.
Age 16 - Thankfully move to live with another family and go to another school for the year (Mum & Dad still together & still hating each other every day.....brother & sister also --- my brother is a real basket case now)
Was a graet year, studied hard, had a great girl, was set for success as an airforce pilot in the academy - was my dream, really was)
Age 17 (year 12 of school) - unfortunately had to return home (I hated my family - between them all, the wrecked or stole every possession of mine that meant anything to me, that I'd left in their care). Whole family still fighting every day practically. House was always a pigsty to boot (I have always been very tidy)
Still studying my butt off (doing what I could to escape my home foreva) & studying only the very toughest subjects (2 units of advanced maths (I was in a special maths class for a while designing algoriths & stuff), Biology, Physics, Economics, English Literature, Human Biology, Chemistry - you get the idea....I'd been doing this for 2 years to set myself up. My med exams for the airforce were passed, I just had to do well in finals)
3 mths before end of year & I couldnt stand being at home anymore. I had to get out.To do this I needed a place to live & to do that, I needed a job. (there goes the studies & therefore the airforce academy - we didnt have scholarships + there are 5000 people for 500 positions every term)
I got a retail job and moved out - I was good, they gave me a company flat.
I guess the depression was always there, I only started to notice a few yrs later, when I was about 18 or 19. I was in love and my girl (fiance)left me - we were young and both damaged goods. Real shame, thats life. I lost it totally - I was alone in the world (cos I was indifferent to my family (who'd all moved away anyhow)
So, we broke up - I gave my employer an ultimatum that they make the job I was doing an official tital - they yanked my chain so I quit.
Fiance hooked up with me, cos I was leaving for the big smoke. Struggled for work there (early 90s - V. high unemployment). Went on the road with travelling sales team - girl left me again for her former EX of 4 years (before me).
Became an alcoholic & drug adict - (I convinced myself at the time I was 'just havein fun' - just a social drinker, etc.......thats all just a bunch of crap...take it from one whos been there cos thats how it starts)
21 yrs old I meet some positive minded people, spend time with them. 3 mths later, still unemployed, am no longer drinking, smoking, etc; have saved money & am leaving in search of my family 3.5 thousand kilometers away (about 2000 miles for the yanks out there ;-) ).
I hitched the whole way (stop at my old town on the way to visit a friend or two & find that one of them had been the one who'd robbed me blind just before I left the first time - I recognised some of my stuff) He was the 2nd 'best friend' to have done that to me - I can sure pick em cant I???
Had real friends in that town and stayed with them a bit - was nice to catch up. Finally bus the rest of the way to families city. They are still all F******ed up, just living separately. Here we go again I thought.
Lived with my dad and worked to put myself thru University to get a diploma in accounting (my parents had lost a dozen businesses - which is what sent us on the road in the first place. this has made me make a promise to myself never to let that happen to my family when I had one)
Finish that in mid 90's. Still lonely. Best friends had all moved interstate by this time. I moved too. Another University, studying a double degree this time (Bus (IT)/Arts (Japanese)) 2 thirds thru it and I am being worn out by the grind of full time study for 2 degrees & working between 30-50 hrs per week to support myself. Naturally, I get burnout. But not before meeting a lovely girl from Switzerland who speaks french (very sexy in Australia). We spend good time together (& once more, I think its more perfect than it was - I propose and move with her to Europe). Marraige is a disaster. I cant work cos I'm a foreigner, cant speak the language, not qualified for there, etc. Had some experience with computers - was forced to lie about how much to get a job (worked out OK - I was pretty good at it as it turned out)Just much better suited to Economics or Management, thats all. Wife was very violent Italian background - once more violence domestic this time) like Id never seen.
Ended with me finally retaliating and hitting her (once, for which I will be foreva ashamed), but not before she had attacked me repeatedly, every way imaginable (including with the car, knife - big one too). This was how her family treated emotional anguish I guess. Unfortunately, some of that sickness has stayed with me thru the following yrs. Divorce took two years (swiss laws makes you pay dearly for this kind of error in judgement - 2 yr 'to b sure of your decision time') I was not swiss - therefore I was shafted.
Fell back in love with the bottle. Some friends and I must have paid the rent for our local bar for 2 yrs straight (maybe half the city nitespots too actually)
It was fun. It was medicinal. It was expensive.
1999 was a great yr - I had an absolute ball.
Yr 2000, met my current WGF/XGF. My depression wasnt yet over - I knew she was special but she wanted to rush it a bit. I didnt want to lose my chance with her, but wasnt really ready. Once I stopped going out 'til 2-4 am every 2nd day< i became less fun, too serious, etc.
Company that I worked for had a merger (I was kept on, but f*****ed over) became bitter. Eventually my contract (dept actually) was canned - Thx in no small part because of 9/11.
Nov of that yr found me unemployed in a world that was afaid of hiring anyone.
Needed shoulder reconstruction (old sports injury). Didnt go a s great as it could have, became addicted to morphine (for the pain - really horrible sh*t that is. Detaches you from reality. Doctors suggested I swap morphine for Grass (its legal in Switz.). Started in the 'smoking room' at hospital. Rehab for the shoulder took nearly 2 yrs. Had a medical stoppage on being allowed to work. Cash flow wasnt great as you can imagine. Lots of strain on us as a couple. (Had been living together since not long after meeting).
Started working - took a contract for 9mths (after 9mths, I was coming home to OZ - had had enough of Switz). I guess I was blaming the country fr my probs and running away.
Got back here - jobs easy to find, but good jobs hard to find (especially when yr refernces speak another language & are on the other side of the world)
So, now I work full time learning my hobby (wine). It is for the interim only as I have to step up for something better now.

So - there you go.....sorry it was so long. I tried to keep it simple and missed heaps out.

Mortarman
Being a divorcee already, I agree with you totally. Of course being divorced proves that I failed there too. (lived together just 9mths with a 6 mth break in the middle as we were on opporsite sides of the earth - doomed to fail, no?)
Things were good at the begining but soured as we seemed to, I dont know exactly, 'cramp each others styles or something'. Then we stagnated. I think we definately loved each other, but the talk of marriage (when things werent looking like the married life she wanted, spooked her. She panicked, and found someone else to live with instaed of me. This guy is not serious - her neither. So, I thik the pressure got to her. Just like the Doc says.
Thx for your input.
Letters are very interesting (makes you look at things differently)

Guys can anybody point westy towards some good examples of Plan B letters? Is it even worth it at this point or should he just go dark?

Thanks

Surprise - WGF/XGF who never wanted to speak to me again called me today!
She sounded very contrite & a bit sad, but happy to talk to me. We laughed abit.
She wants to meet up next week and have a 'nice,long talk'.
Says she has been very stressed at work lately.
I agree to the atlk & tell her to call me. I also apologise for not realsising that she and OM need their space. She makes a noise that sounded dismissing (like its not important) - I could be wrong tho.

WHAT SHOULD I DO?
HOW SHOULD I PLAY THIS?

I know I should stay very cool. Be very patient. Listen. Let her say whatever she wants and play it by ear.
BUT WHAT ELSE?
Should I be engaging? Funny? Serious? Quiet?
Help

Thanks

Keepmoving4ward

Thanks for your input.
I have to agree with your assessment. 100%

The last sentence in particular was on the money - gave me a good kick up the bum

Thanks

Hey bro.... thats good news because it shows that she is not quite ready to let you go. On the other hand, it allows her to get her "westy" fix while continuing to be a cake eater.

Also, I wouldn't get my hopes up too high as a lot can happen between now and next week. Your latest crisis happened as a result of her not keeping an appointment, make sure you act differently next week should it happen again.

I would make sure that you look your best and try to show her the positive changes you are making.

What you have to avoid is your constant talking and answering her without listening in the first place. Just listen and validate her concerns. Show her that you are really listening by paying attention, summarising the points she has made, and then validating her feelings.

Don't forget that you cannot argue about somebody's feelings. What they feel is what they feel, and although you may perceive it differently, it does not mean that her feelings are any less valid.

Avoid "you" statements and focus instead on "I" statements ie. instead of saying "you distanced yourself" try "I felt the distance growing between us" etc.

I still think you should prepare a Plan B letter to give to her just in case she changes her mind and decided to maintain no contact with you. In your case, it would be different as she is the one to initiate no contact, but it would still allow you to let her know that you are there for her should she be willing to fulfill the conditions you stipulate.

What else did she say in the conversation?? What did you guys talking about?? I know that you summarised the parts which you felt were relevant, but you might have nmissed out something. Give us more details.

CKTC
we only spoke for 5 mins (I was working) I pretty much covered it all I think. She sounded compassionate. Said that she received my emails (explaining the error that I made in calling her dad by accident - I suppose I should have told him the full story, but I didnt)
Apollogised for being a jerk on sunday......thats pretty much it.
I am not actually sure what she wants to talk about - its probably about getting her fix....I dont know. Maybe she is feelling it already after less than 1 week of silence (the last things I said to her in text & email were I wont call you anymore!........honestly, I hope she is panicked (but I am not holding my breath.....I do have some dignity after all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
I'll just wait & see what she wants to talk about and try to be prepared for woteva it may be.
Id like to have good times with her ( I am as addicted to her as always I guess-----even if her addiction is to someone else at the mo), but Im not sure about this - ideas??????
be calm, cool & collected is the name of the game I think. Im busy this w'end so that'll help to keep my mind occupied.
If she changes her mind - well, like I told her, I wont b calling, etc.

Re: Preparing a Plan B letter - have been totally overwelmed by the volume of info on this site. I have read so many examples of what to do, etc, that I dont have a clue where to start in writing one. If anyone has some guidelines for me, I would welcome them.

Thx

Motarman

can you suggest where I should start looking re: 'study the principles here'

self esteem, self control, something to help me attain more emotional balance would b a great place to start focusing on.
ideas???
thanks

We lived together as Husband and wife (although we never married)
Then you really weren’t living together as husband and wife.
Why didn’t you get married?

She moved out from me & into an appartment with a guy she works with. She says that this guy is easy to talk to & she likes him very much....after 5yrs together, it took her 5 weeks to find someone to comfort her
Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but she “found” someone a few months ago, not only after she moved out.

Ultimately, I want us to fall back in love with each other - and I want to do it right this time.
Read “His Needs, Her Needs” and LoveBusters”.

Chris -CA123

We lived together as Husband and wife (although we never married)
Then you really weren’t living together as husband and wife.
Why didn’t you get married?
- I was still divorcing (see previous posts as to why it took so long) and recovering from D.
But, then again, I have asked myself that Q many times.....I was shopping for a ring at the time.

She moved out from me & into an appartment with a guy she works with. She says that this guy is easy to talk to & she likes him very much....after 5yrs together, it took her 5 weeks to find someone to comfort her
Uh, sorry to burst your bubble, but she “found” someone a few months ago, not only after she moved out.
I think we can agree that is fairly obvious she was having an emotional affair for some time before leaving.

Ultimately, I want us to fall back in love with each other - and I want to do it right this time.
Read “His Needs, Her Needs” and LoveBusters”.

- Are these online somewhere or do I need to purchase them?

So you were still married and living with someone else?
How does that fit into healthy relationships? (This is a rhetorical question. Just something to think about)

You can get them just about anywhere online or local bookstores.
Marriage Builders bookstore

I had been separated for 2 yrs & had practically no contact with XW.
I would have been divorced already except for the laws in the country I was living in forced you to stay married at least 2 yrs after initially filing for divorce.
I was very beaten up by the divorce procedings. (I had left Australia & gone to Europe to be with her after all. I sacraficed my entire life to b with her, only to have to endure the hardest years of my life.)
I should have been seeing a professional then, I guess, but I wasnt.
Hindsight is fantastic. At the time, I was desparate, lonely and very hurt by relationships.
I have always been a relationship trainwreck.
I think my main problem is talking too much (seen as a 'need to be the centre of attention' reaction, it is often seen as rude and lacking respect for others in conversation. It is a very difficult habit to break.)
It deffinately has led to every bit of unhappiness that I have experienced in my relationship life.



It wasnt healthy. I didnt want it this way. My WGF/XGF wanted to be with me all the time (plus she lived in a horrible appt). It was logical for us to be together. Therefore logical to live together.

I have oreder the following reading material - what order should I read them in ........

Love Busters
5 Steps to Romantic Love
His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage
Surviving An Affair
Fall In Love Stay In Love
Four Gifts of Love (Gift Edition)

thanks

She called me again today - I didnt get the call & she didnt leave a msg.
Its so frustrating. I called back & left a msg. (I believe she is either screening my calls, or has blocked my numbers from her cell phone - but there is no way to tell. --- This leaves me in a difficult situation - I seem to be around at her convenience only ( thats breaking my heart all over again - or is that still?)
WHat should I do? I am going crazy. Its like I am frozen in time and space, unable to function at all sometimes.
I dont want to move on, but I do want to move ahead, so-as to achieve some level of personal development; something for the betterment of myself. Afterall, how does a Plan A work if a). we nearly never see each other, & b). I find it hard to even get out of bed in the morning (or sleep at night)?
She is always in my head - I cant shake it. Everything reminds me of her. I love her dearly, yet I hate her for the betrayal that she unleashed upon me, us, the love & committment we gave each other, promises made to each other AND others, all those who care about us (individually & as a couple), but mostly I am distraught at how she has betrayed herself.
I am sure that her soul is in turmoil - who could have believed her capable of such a thing? Certainly not me, & Im sure not her (or anybody else for that matter.
I know she sould feel guilty, but I would like to reconcile. Therefore, would I become a trigger for her guilty feelings? I wouldnt want her life to be so tortured. How could I avert this from happening? (& still get the girl, especially as we are not married)
Must I simply move on - cut all contact (its hard in a small town were we live)
I have been thinking LBs (better to think em than to say em right?), & I was wondering....should I inform all of our mutual friends about what has happened? This act would dprobably discrace her and I would be the villan, but at least then she could no longer live the lie of 'doing the right thing' - ANY SUGGESTIONS PLEASE?

I wouldn't pursue too much. In my opinion, even calling back and leaving a message is too much, let her come to you so you can't be accused of harrassing her.

Regarding moving ahead you just have to do it, with or without her. Talk to a therapist or spiritual councillor to help you get started on getting your life back together again. Reduce or get rid of the stuff that reminds of you her and keep yourself busy. The busier you are the less you will think of her.

Knowing your WGF, I also can hardly believe this situation. However, given her personality, she must have been very emotionally detached for this to occur. Emotional detachment does not happen overnight Westy, and she had been telling you what she needed from you for a long time before this happened.

I would continue my Plan A at the moment while giving her space. When she contacts you remain positive and receptive to her, however try not to initiate contact. If you do a good plan A and make some of the changes she has been asking for, you might induce some guilt or anger on her part. This is not necessarily negative. She will have to face her guilt at some point anyway. As long as you avoid LB's and throwing the affair or the OM in her face you won't remain a trigger for her guilt and anger forever.

Regarding exposure, I'm not sure. I don't know how effective it will be in your case as you were not married and the OM is single. It might prove to be a pyrrhic victory. If you decide to expose then I would do it only to your very closest friends.

CKTC - re: exposure.
yep, I agree - I have had time to contemplate on this & cant really see much reason for it other than vindictiveness (I really havent been thinking straight).

re: contact
She emailed me appollogising for not contacting me & keeping in touch ....
Said she'd like to to get together this week and talk/have a drink

I am vamping up my positive thinking (need it for continued good Plan A) & doing alot of positive reading.

(1 book in particular opened up a whole new whole of understanding of where we went wrong (especially me). Just too negative about everything - and living in the past.
I can understand why she has done what she has done (scary kind of understanding that ;-) ).....I feel that she had become so desparate that she 'cracked' - CKTK; I think you know what I am talking about regarding our relationship and where we've been going with it over the years.

In saying that, and knowing her as I do, I think she still loves me (not love-sick-puppy-talk) & would desparately like to see those positive changes.
It is an ongoing project.

re: finances
Am looking into some investing opportunities. Refinding the energy to kick my business in the guts again & get it going some more - some positive movement there.

re: work
pretty cruisy. Am enjoying it (havent enjoyed a job for some time). Will still need to 'trade up' for a better paying job tho.

re: counselling

havent been able to find 1 yet (but honestly not looked that hard due to work hours/restrictions. have some time off this week so will try some more. I definately need a good mentor/life coach/counsellor tho, so, Im not shirking that responsibility.

still looking to retire by 40!
- Just this time Id like more than just cash (ie love/affection and being part of a rewarding relationship / being much more giving & understanding / more generous / respectful & courteous / happy and proud of who I am and how I affedt those around me.

I am on the path bro. Hope to make you proud - you're a good friend thats for sure!

Later

CKTC - ps. That post (that you responded to) was alot of venting on my part. It helps to write down my thoughts & then read them back. It mostly looks like crap (or 'stuff' as another friend would put it) now that I read it.

It was really nice talking to her today and hearing the care and tenderness in her voice. Really nice.

Love to all back home. Talk to you soon.

When is your divorce final?
Are you considering getting married to this person?

Chris - my marraige was finalised in late 2001.
WGF and I had already been living together for a year or so.
Unfortunately, the immense feelings of failure, etc that I felt re. the divorce (even tho I had no contact what-so-ever with XW) cripled the ability of me to move onto the next logical step in my relationship with WGF, ie marraige, when the time was right.
It started to fester and I guess she thought it would never move on.

When she told me she 'didnt want to do it anymore', I was shopping for an engagement ring. I was finally ready to pop the Q. Very bad timing.
I will never be frozen by fear ever again.
you can see all of this if you read thru the thread.