it's on the last page right now.

And, remember, your "real" spouse is still in there. He/she just got lost for a while. Remember how hard it was for you to question who your S was and to realize this horrible thing he/she did. You have all these questions and concerns. Now, for a moment, imagine what your S feels thinking those exact same things because he/she never thought they could do this. But, now they have. Shakes your entire world and belief-system. You have lost your honor, hurt the one you love, you are not the person you believed you were, etc. All very scary. I am not trying to imply you should feel sorry for the WS. But, as hard as it is, put yourself in his/her shoes for a moment. What if it had been you instead? What if it had been you?

In my situation I do not think it would of taken too much for me to be in my H's shoes. I can understand the road that led him there, a road we both created and seemed to not be able to get out of. He alone took that final step into an affair but like I said I can see how he got there. Yes, he could of not gave in to the temptation but I know how he was feeling at that point in our relationship and I so wanted to feel loved too. Infact I went the opposite way and avoided any situation that could of resulted in an A because I knew that the feelings I was having could have led me there. That is the only thing that kept me from being in his shoes.

Your right, you do question on how this person you love could of done this horrible thing. But at the same time you love them and want to understand and help.

Thanks Improving! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maggie-

This is so insightful and have you shared this with him?

My H had an A, yet he seems to not be able to understand what I did--even though he did it too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Imp, I really appreciate your taking the time and effort to respond to my concerns. I can't talk to my wife about these things yet but I have always been driven by a need to know things. Not understanding the situation in which I find myself is pure torture and tests my love and resolve to the utmost.

I can and have put myself in my wife's shoes. The truth is that our marriage sucked for years. It still does but we're hopefully working to better it. I don't find it surprising that she got involved in an affair. I was just as ripe for someone to fill my emotional needs as she was. It was only God's grace that I got into counseling and focused on improving myself in an effort to save my marriage after she asked me for a separation.

What hurts most is the length of the affair (two years, the same amount of time I've been in counseling) and that she says that she loves him. I have read everything on the 'Fog" over and over but it just won't jell in my mind. If it had been me who got involved in an affair and who fell in love with the other woman I certainly would have left the marriage or broken off the other relationship. What pounds in my skull is the question of WHY she had to keep both of us on a string. How can a person live such a completely dishonest life? I don't think that my wife is crazy but that sure seems crazy to me.

It also fries my brain that she said that she broke off the affair because she realized that she never gave our relationship a chance and wanted to make it work. Yet I believe she continues to talk to the guy and lie about it to me. WTF? How can a person be of two minds like that? How do you reconcile the conflict? Or do you just ignore it?

As I said I don't expect to get any definitive answers or to read something that instantly makes everything crystal clear. But in my haunting of these pages I have from time to time read something that clicked and grew in my mind into something I could use. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your kindness to me. I only know one woman in real life who had an affair but when I asked her about it she was devoid of any insights. It helps me immensely to interact with peole who are thoughtful. Imp, I have learned in this life that whatever you do comes back to you, be it good or bad. I know that God will bless you for your good heart. Is there anything I can do to to help Him?

Yes, I did. I knew he was feeling so guilty about the hurt he caused. I wanted him to know it could of been me instead of him (or it could of been both of us having an A at the same time). I had a few offers that I turned down, I let him know that. I also let him know that it was tempting and it was hard to not to because of the mess our marriage was in. I am thankful I did have enough strength not to but I do see how easy it can happen.

Camp,

This has to be so painful for you. My H's affair started about a month before we separated and lasted about a month after. I was taken back by some of his actions and words in that time before I knew for sure that he was having an A. Of course all blame was on me and I knew some of the things he was saying were true. (I detached emotionally and to him it appeared as if I did not care) Yet, in this time he came around and would act like he wanted to spend time with me. He never cut off ties completely yet if I reached out he would accuse me of hanging on. Not until I found proof of the A did he break down and admit his part in our disolving marriage.

Your wife has been in this A for a long period of time. Maybe it will take more time for her to wake up? I guess it must be hard to put all your eggs in one basket if that basket was broken to begin with. I think you improving yourself is a great way to show her you want to change what was wrong. Best thoughts to you!!!

Campdog-

Well, reading these kind words has me crying. My H and I had another knock down drag out fight with tons of LBs and he is now in the other room and I am out here alone crying, as per usual. So, I can't thank you enough for your kind words. My H does not seem to see the good in me or the changes I have made <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



Campdog- I must call you on this. You cannot judge her on what you would do. You have not had an A, so you do not know what you would do. I am not criticizing you, just stating facts. There is a script WS follow. You would most likely have followed it too. That is why As are not unique. You are measuring her against what you would have done. Well, you do not know what you would do, so you are angry at her for an assumption of how you would act. And, the bottom line is, she is not you. She handled it the way she handled it because she is who she is with her own history.



Why? Because you have a M that is not what you need it to be, but you have history (maybe kids), and years together than were wonderful. So, there is conflict because then there is this A which is making you feel so good. But, you are not prepared to give up on your M, but you do not want to give up the A. Thus, cake-eating. As Harley said, the A meets some needs, but so does the M. So, eating cake is the perfect solution. That's why exposure, etc., disrupts everything. Now, you have to make some decisions and the A is not quite so fun and the cake-eating is not quite so easy either.




I did the same thing in the sense I broke off the PA. In my mind, I had ended the relationship, but we could be friends. I fully intended my M to work and was committed to that, but I was fogged out enough to not yet be willing to give up the OM (H was actively having an A, so this made this part even harder for me). Still cake-eating, but at the time I was fully committed to making my M work.

Weird, I know. But, you are trying to make sense of that which does not make sense. This can destroy your M. You probably will never understand it and you are judging her at a time she was under the influence. You will need to let some of this go or it will weigh you down and hurt you in the end. My advice is to focus on the here and now and what you can do to improve your M. As BobPure has said, there is nothing the WS can ever do to make up for this pain. Nothing. Are you able to accept that and still move forward?

Maggie-

Good for you on both counts--telling him and avoiding your own A. I wish we had done this as recovering from his A and mine is so hard. We are both hurting and really have a hard time. And, I would love for him to let me in, but he hasn't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Very good point. And, I think "Torn Asunder" actually graphs out R and the A and what to expect. Very interesting.

Imp, I know all about crying over the kindness people have shown me here. If you have seen kindness in my words or can take any comfort from them understand that I'm just passing along some of what I have gotten from this place.

I'm sorry to hear about your fight. I know how gut wrenching it feels to have that happen when all you want is to be close to your spouse. It helps me at such times to view these things as a bump in the long road to recovery. One thing I have learned to do is recognize when the LBs start coming from my mouth and then to keep it shut. We still wind up in separate rooms feeling bad but I find that it makes it easier for one of us to later approach the other when we have not invested time and energy in hurting each other.

It also seems to me as well that my wife has not noticed the good or the changes in me. Whenever I find myself dwelling on that aspect I find hope in the postings of bOb and others who report that their WW spouses noticed EVERYTHING and hope that the same holds true for my wife. Do you see the good and the changes in your spouse? If you do, does he know what you are seeing?

You make a very good point when you say that not having had an affair I cannot say what I would do in an affair. Very astute, how did I miss that? I didn't FEEL judgemental when I wrote that but I can see how it could be taken like that and maybe I AM being judgemental. What's more I could be giving this impression to my wife. Food for thought for sure. Thank you, you are a smart lady.

It's true that demanding sense of that which does not make sense is a waste of time and energy. But I am unable to just say to myself 'this happened, get over it'. A rock didn't drop off a cliff on my head, this horror happened because of the conscious will of another. I am trying to understand the mechanism , the process that enabled my wife to do what she did and perhaps is doing still. There are many many things I must let go of to enable recovery and make my marriage stronger. I know this and I think I'm capable of the task. But I can't keep seeing my wife as some wierd, alien being whose motives and actions are beyond my comprehension. There HAS to be some context where I can put the awful truths of her affair, lies and deceptions. Not to judge or condemn as a result but to comprehend and move on. Doubt and Uncertainty have been wearing down my resolve and these two things are not something I, personally, can disregard.

LOL I told you that there were no uncomplicated answers, right? Maggie, and you too Imp, what do you think? How are you dealing with the issue of HOW as opposed to WHY? Or is that something that comes from my own personal [censored]? Am I torturing myself to no purpose? Inquiring minds want to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Heheh I just posted and the filter censored my refferal to the place where sinners go to be punished for eternity. Pretty funny when you consider who reads these boards and some of the words that AREN'T filtered. LOL I guess even MB isn't perfect.

I think how equals why.

You say in your post your marriage has not been good for many years (mine was the same way). For years all of us were not getting what we need, affection, love, closeness. We all start to feel like we are living with someone who is not the person we married. We start living separate lives yet we live in the same house, sleep in the same bed. Day by day we went on with life when the person we were married to was drifing further away. At some point your feelings start becoming "numb" to that person. You don't hate them but you do not feel the love you once had because they are not filling your needs BUT you are not filling theirs either.

At that point in my marriage I thought it was over. I was convinced my husband could give a rats butt about me. (did not know he was having the same feelings about me) We had other issues going on in our life on top of all this. He found himself in a situation that a "friend" WOULD listen, this friend would comfort him and let him know he was cared about. This friendship turned into an A. This friend was also recovering from an A and at the same time her husband was deployed. They were both alone, both having problems in their marriage, both were desperate to feel wanted.

How did they lay in each others arms and tell each other intimate things? How did they excuse their behavior? I have no clue. But, I think the why turns into the how.

I am trying to put myself there and think if I had an A and that person told me all the things I wanted to hear and made me feel all the things I wanted to feel....maybe it would be hard to let it go, esp. if I knew my marriage did not give me what I so desperatly needed. It is hard to put ourselves there, I guess. To really know.

I am in no way excusing what they did. I cannot take a higher ground just because I made every attempt to NOT put myself there when that is what I so wanted too. (to feel loved) I may have not been able to do that for much longer.

I think maybe if you concentrate more on you, making sure you are doing everything you possible can to fill her needs, showing her if she was to give your marriage 100 % chance that it WILL be different this time, show her you can be fun, show her you can be romantic, show her you are the one who will always be there for her, and put the whys and hows aside for awhile (I know that is sooooooooooo hard to do)....maybe she will see that you forgive her and your love is much stronger than this A.

I am no expert and I am new at all of this. All I know is that it hurts like no other hurt, it makes you become another person and shatters everything you thought you had. These A's are powerful things, I think they are more powerful to the couples that are trying to recover from them versus the actual A. It really makes us question who we are, who our spouse is. It makes us look at our entire time together and where we screwed up.

Be strong camp and love her like you never loved her before! Show her you can give her everything she needs. If you do that and she still cannot make a choice then maybe she will never be able to? You have to do what is best for you too in all of this.

Take care of yourself!

Maggie

maggie,

I just wanted to butt in here and say you have an amazing attitude. God bless you and your H on your path to recovery.

I concur ma'am, you DO have an amazing attitude. I can be all the things you mention above for my wife except, sadly, fun. For one thing she resists going out with me and for another I seem to have lost my smile somewhere along the way. I can't seem to move my broken heart from out of in front of my face. I'm working on it real, REAl hard though and I'm thinking of having my counselor prescribe ADs to help. He has offered in the past but I turned him down because I was afraid they would dull my faculties. Now I'm thinking that some dulled emotions are what I need. The base ones anyway.

We're going to a wedding tonight with the kids. I am bound and determined to be FUN, dammit. NO LBs or wearing my feelings on my sleeve. Wish me luck. Stay tuned for breaking news.

Sorry I have not been able to reply sooner. A lot was going on this weekend, so I have not had the opportunity. H and I had a few really good talks this weekend and I am feeling closer to him. We are both so hurt right now, but we were able to really share a lot and that felt good.
Anyway, I want to give your posts the time they deserve and I cannot reply when I am at work, so I will be posting later today. Hope you both had a nice weekend.

I blew the wedding. Not big time but shame on me. Not easy this plan A stuff. Looking forward to exchanging notes.

Very good point. I had forgotten about that. Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Keeping my mouth shut so I do not LB is something I am working very hard on. I notice I do it the most when I feel hurt and anxious and I am doubting how my FWH feels about me and working on the M. I have all the same fears of a BS, despite being a FWS too.




This is a HUGE point. A lot of the things you do when in an A are so out of character. I bet your FWW cannot believe she did them either. I have a friend who had an A many years ago and she is still figuring out what happened. She said she wants to make sure she never gets to that place again. Out of curiousity, is your wife a Type A/perfectionist type of person? Testing a theory I have.

Anyway, I think As happen when everything gels at the "right" time and then an A is born. My H had not been meeting some of my needs for years and I did not have an A. I think, for me, it was a combination of tons of stressors coming down on us over a period of time and we were not able to be there for each other, needs not being met, low-self esteem, depression, not feeling like my H valued me, etc. It all happeneded over a period of time and I think I could have handled some of it, but not all. Then, along comes this person that you innocently start talking to and then before you know it you feel like you have to talk to him/her. Suddenly, this person is important to you. Very insidious. I never saw it coming. So, judging her will not help you or the M. Try to understand how As happen. I know this will not make it OK, but it will help. And, I bet she judges herself more harshly than you ever could. I do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh, no. I am sorry. What happened?

We actually had some good talks this weekend, so I am feeling better about things. They do say R is a roller-coaster.

This is the only "benefit" to being a FWS. I do understand the how. I have a hard time with the fact he could do it to me knowing how much he knew it would hurt. But, he has explained his and it started in much the same way as mine. She was listening to him when I wasn't. He says it was not revenge at all and I believe him.

I think trying to understand how As happen is good. Her A will have much the same script as any A. So, understanding that I think will help you. Basically, an A gets started like most other romantic relationships, it is just not OK to have an A. Meaning, the same feelings you have when you first get to know someone of the opposite sex and develop an attraction, it's the same. But, because it is not socially acceptable, your mind "protects" you from this bad thing you are doing-- thus, acting like an alien.

I think she needs to understand what got her to this place so she never does it again. That is imperative, but will take some time.

Glad you're doing better Imp. Was it like I said, a bump in the road? I have this image of a horse drawn buggy going ******-for-leather down a dirt road. The buggy hits a bump and both people go into the air. I think the important thing is to keep holding the other person's hand.

I like your idea of an affair starting like any romantic relationship. It fits. But the idea of my wife doing that with another man makes me physically ill. I can't stop the images and scenarios from running in my head. And that's what happened at the wedding.

I swear, I was DETERMINED to have fun and make it a nice ocassion. My wife looked great. Sexy dress with a slit up the side, killer legs amd FM shoes. I started thinking of her with him, comparing myself to him and I was coming up short. I started feeling really horrible and isolated. I knew I was doing it to myself as she was attentive and pleasant. But I couldn't respond in kind no matter how I tried. The image of her with him in a similar situation was right in front of my face. I didn't say anything but I decided to have a couple of beers to lighten my mood. I have been a heavy drinker for most of my life but I stopped the self medication about a year ago. I forgot my hard earned lessons with predictable results. Instead of lightening my mood the alcohol intensified it and I made several comments about her being embarassed to be seen with me and how she really didn't need to feel obligated to be nice to me. Changed her mood and made her feel bad.

I feel like such a moron. I KNEW better but acted stupid anyway. A golden opportunity wasted. For her part my wife excused my behavior on the basis of my having too much to drink. I cannot forgive myself in a similar way. My beloved has so much on her plate right now. I feel small, shallow and mean to have added even another ounce. WHY do I act like that when I KNOW better? Sometimes lately I feel like I have lost my mind. I have certainly lost my way. I can only resolve once again to do my level best and leave the result to the Lord. Hope it's enough.