update is on page 2.
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I wonder if I am doing something wrong because I kinda feel ignored. I'm going to keep posting and hope somebody can help me.

Here's my teneuous plan. I want to make an appt. with a mediator with the goal of finding out what WH is willing to do to save our marriage, and what he wants from me. I want to be prepared with what I am willing to do, and with what I would like for him to agree to.

The purpose is not to make unreasonable demands, but how in the world will the trust be rebuilt if we don't have some sort of agreed upon boundaries.

And the purpose of finding out what he is willing to do will help for us to get on a path toward healing and restoration. And if he's not willing to do it, or if he doesn't do what he agrees to, then I want to know in advance what I will do (which will be plan B I guess)

So, if you can help please help. and I aplogize if I didn't recognize your previous contributions. Believer and Melody thank you for your assistance.

PS. Is there anything I am forgetting? I have no idea if he's willing to do anything but I won't know if I don't make some sort of move.




***************************
Do I need to expose wider?

So I discovered from the OW that he had never stopped contact, and he didn't deny or admit anything. He got angry and starting casting blame again, and I just waited and started talking. The grief and the tears came, the bitter betrayed feelings all came out, and I kept talking.

and he didn't care. I spilled it all, I didn't yell or scream I tried very hard to be respectful, I tried to focus on my feelings, our marriage, our family, and the mutual benefit a happy family is.

He never once admitted to what he had done wrong, I asked him what he did with the other phone and he said he threw it out the window. However this morning I called the # and it rang and rang and went to voice mail. It was off all day yesterday. I'm sure its a total lie that he threw it out the window.

He's now texting me spiteful messages that his day will be so tough because i kept him up all night. I have little sympathy.

anyway, do I keep exposing? do I go just a bit wider or do I drop a nuclear bomb? Do I need to wait until I know I'm not being spiteful.....what do I say?

here's the history
"looks like he's guilty" so sad, I'm married to a liar

Well, it is my sincere opionion, that if you DO have a nuclear bomb that will end the affair, then I would man the troops and get that sucker dropped TODAY. Stop launching all of these pellet scud missles and bring in the big guns to end this affair. It is ending the affair that has to be your prime objectivwe now. You cannot do anything else until that happens.

Sour... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sour, in truth, the relationship with the OW seems to be platonic on the surface, and I'm more convinced it was an EA in his mind. However, the bigger problem is that he continued to lie about it and continued to carry on and mislead me and believe it was all hunky dory and he was justified because of the neglect and sad state our relationship was in. So I'm not exactly sure if it would be truthful to bend the EA into a nuclear bomb, when the nuclear bomb is his lies and unwillingness to stop contact.

So, I believe that the A was in fact an A because it came between us greatly and he couldn't knock it off, however it may be more so in his mind than what actually is. The OW came to me for help, she got in over her head. She has no reason to lie to me, but he does. His own actions scream guilt. I am assuming she will probably bend the truth, howver. I've been lied to so much its hard to believe anything anybody says.

the hard thing is knowing that what I had done, I had not meant to do. I knew something was wrong but felt powerless to change it. I was depressed, and was clueless to the effect of it. I did not mean to hurt him and I have made every effort to correct all that I could, I asked for forgiveness, I'm walking the walk.

The effect of the A.D. has been enormous, it has really opened my eyes but in the same way I feel also betrayed because he didn't protect me and get me help when I was helpless to help myself. I'm sure this is where it gets confusing to my own self....I know I prob. go in and out of denial I can't just fix years of neglect in two months, and its hard to shoulder the blame.

but its unfair for me to shoulder the blame for his EA. that is just wrong.

I think my next step would be to arrange a meeting in a few days to see what he is willing to do to work on the marriage, if he is willing to do anything. I told him everything I was willing to do. I laid it all out, despite his shortcomings I was still willing to work through, improve my own issues, and work on forgiveness as long as we can DEAL with the problems.

how is my plan? which do I do first?

schedule a meeting in a couple days with a mediator and a friend, and see if wh shows, to find out what he is willing to do. this would be prior to going to MC because I want to know what he is willng to do if anything, including MC.

expose to more friends, i don't know about his family. don't see how it would help much.

bump. PS. I'm going to keep studying on my own. and look up other people's agreements.

whattagirl,
I know sometimes it feels like your talking to yourself when you post but keep posting. I read your post and said to myself sounds like my WH! So I get it!! EA are difficult to deal with because WS feels self riteous (sp?)like they didn't REALLY do anything wrong. The key is if his relationship with a another woman bothers you its a problem. If he doesn't see it that way...its a problem. If he won't do NC letter...problem. If he won't commit to marriage...problem. My WH sounds a lot like yours wouldn't say anything, briefly, halfheartedly said he would have no contact and work on marriage. Which changed to "What difference does a piece of paper make?" and "let's just see how we get along." It didn't work.I expect him to be moving out the first of the month.

If he won't commit whole heartedly you need to figure out your plan and expect little co operation from him.

Keep posting

bump

I would think that if you have been plan Aing....and there is still contact...

then when is your plan to go to plan B and be done with a cake eating waffling never have to decide chaotic spouse...?

what's the point of a mediator....exactly

ARK

the bargaining table is to get out on the table what I want from the marriage and what I am willing to do, and for him to tell me what he is willing to do and what he wants from the marriage. AKA to make a plan and see if we can begin to negotiate. Obviously we have been unsuccessful in negotiating and communicating. I am glad I have been Plan A'ing because I do feel like I have turned the right direction and doing something for the right reason...

If he chooses not to go, or doesn't do what he promises, then he'll have to go and we'll go to plan B. I'll go on with my plan to keep working on my life for the better. and we will wait some more.

I'm having a hard time with the boundaries, thats my downfall. How to set an appropriate boundary and how to stick to it and respect myself, yet while still Plan A'ing

I believe this is the first time I had the guts to say HEY THATS NOT OK WITH ME AND THIS IS WHAT I'M GOING TO DO ABOUT IT. we both have a ton of work to do.

Are you saying that you are planning on hiring a true objective mediator..
or that you are planning on using a friend ..

if your plan is a friend...then i think it's a bad idea...
it will forever change that friendship...and it puts you your husband and the friend all in a no win situation...

you can't make anyone agree to anything..they have to desire it and or value it...

your boundaries should not be confusing...
you need to establish them ...

boundaries are easy..

no third parties
no close friends of the opposite sex
no exclusionary contact with such friend...
etc
or whatever they are....

word tangos
power struggles are useless actions of futility...

you need to act in a way that shows what is intolerable.

my opinion is that you do what needs done on your end
you can even tell him of your intentions...

but to expect some type of commitment from him before you do anything is setting yourself up for failure...
and leaves you with no control....which you really only have control over yourself to begin with....

he can

lie and agree to everything you say
lie and agree with nothing you say
pay you lip service...

he needs to come to you with what he is willing to do.but only if and when he is ready...not when you tell him to be ready....

my opinion is that if you have done plan a...made changes that are good for you..
seriously looked at areas in your life where you participated in choices and behaviors that were unhealthy for you and your marriage and made and are making amends...

that is the best and most you can do..

the decision is with him....

and if he continues to bring devalueing disrespect in your life...YOU remove YOURSELF from that situation...
and wait it out to see what he has to say
and
how he acts

ARK

things I have to do before plan B.

Able to communicate effectively and honestly with him, my needs etc....

Able to identify, set, and enforce my boundaries..starting with little ones

Right now, I'm plan Aing and continuing to work on myself. I will just keep on with that until I can do the above things (I do have a lot of support, so I'm not just thinking wishfully I am going to do the above regardless)

The mediator is a licensed mediator, and its his choice if he goes or not and its his choice if he wants to be willing to work on it. If he is unwilling, or I find he has continued contact its plan B.

The scary part is he may not choose the path to reconciliation. He has the ability to hurt me by cheating and lying regardless of what I do..I can't control what he does. I do know that if I am in good touch with my sacred self (whats ok and whats not) I should be able to protect myself from him hurting me further.

I know the boundary and communication issues are my biggest roadblock, but I am continually getting stronger.

As long as you remember you can control only YOU, not him I think you are doing ok.

I'm not clear on what you are saying...

what are little boundaries...vs big boundaries..

what is it that you fear of making boundaries for yourself..

what are your boundaries..

why do you need to communicate your needs to him in plan A...
plan A is not about your needs at all.....
they are about meeting HIS needs....

what is your plan with a little boundary>

ARK

Ark, you are absolutely confusing. If I told you that I told him that "I wish you would have waited for me to set off that firework" like I did on the 4th of July...and he told me "oh get over yourself, you don't like those kind anyway" and I had no idea how to respond....I guess you would understand.

I have given him absolutely everything without regard to what I was comfortable with, and he has taken it all why wouldn't he when I so willingly gave it? and I've not liked stuff but I never told him and he did it anyway, isn't that my choice? I knew it was my choice, and I still grew resentful but I told myself I never spoke up so I deserve to suffer in silence--its my own problem. If I told him I didn't mind he go on a lobster diving trip but I really did mind, I'm not being honest and its not his fault that now I'm pissed off. This is an example. I have to be absolutely honest and I deserve to be treated with dignity.

He can start an arguement and start blaming and the hurtful words escalate, I can tell him he is able to discuss his concerns with me but I will not tolerate being yelled at or being told that his life is miserable because of me. Especially when I know its not the truth. This is what I'm talking about. That is a boundary. My previous approach was to "give at all costs and avoid making him angry at all costs and I would find fulfillment for myself" no, this is twisted and sick thinking and I had lost my dignity in the process. And to be told he is talking to OW because I hurt him for so long and he is doing it on purpse to hurt me and get revenge? Why should I put up with that?

I do not want to be blamed for all the misery in his life when I have changed the things that I knew he didn't like that made him feel neglected, and I have asked for forgiveness and am doing all I can and all that is possible for me to do to repair the damage AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO WITH RESPECT BECAUSE ITS THE RIGHT WAY TO TREAT SOMEBODY, UNTIL IT IS CLEAR IT DOESNT MATTER. I am doing all the emotional needs I know about, he has not shared with me what the rest are. I am doing all the non-love busting I know about, he has not shared with me what his biggest LB are.

I started changing from the inside out because I felt like something was wrong and I was tired of feeling like I was ashamed of my life and didn't like who I had bcome, I had been in depression. I went to the Dr. for AD, I joined Weight Watchers and so far lost 25 lb, I started doing my hair and putting on makeup, I joined the gym, I changed my attitude, I began praying, I did all this because I knew it was the right thing to do and because things seemed hard here. This was BEFORE i found out about the A!

Ark, I'm really angry of course because of this kettle of fish, and I'm doing everything I can to fix my own crap so I can recognize his crap and not take responsibility for his crap. Its not my fault his childhood was crappy. He's responsible for his own actions and attitudes, and how he deals with the hard knocks. As for me, I'm going to God because he's the only one who can help me. I can't help my WH.

If he continues choosing to not forgive me and punish me with all that crap so he can go on bulldozing over my feelings in order for him to feel good about who he is, then we will go to plan B. I'm perfectly willing to be patient, try everything, meet all his needs (because I've got responsibility there) and forgive his shortcomings and work on forgiving him for what he's responsible for, but I'm unwilling to give up again--I'm not going back to the old way and it will take time to find the new way....If he doesn't decide he wants to come along thats fine, its his choice, then he's out the door (Plan B) because I don't have to put up with it, after I make sure I have done it all in good faith and with proper attitude and motivation. And even then with Plan B I would hope he would want to reconcile and take up his load. I won't give up until he divorces me.

I realize you have no idea what I'm doing in particular here at home...so just realize that I have been doing everything to meet his needs and not LB since about memorial day. I'm riding the roller coaster and it is no fun and I don't appreciate your tone...I realize its a computor, you don't know me, and you don't have all the info but still!

Even if I meet all his needs perfectly I have not filled his love tank if he's getting his needs met elsewhere...that vital piece of the puzzle has yet to be determined. and that is squarely on his shoulders. And if he won't give it up then I'm wasting my time. Although its not really a waste regardless if he gives it up or does whatever the ****** he pleases, because now I have a track record that I'm serious about reconciling.

so there.

You should look up something about boundaries, lots of people have problems with them. When I consider what my actions would be if XYZ happens, or if I consider what I'm comfortable with...there is a lot of gray fuzz there becasue I'm not exactly sure! I can't explain it, it just is that way. 6 weeks ago when I thought he was going to leave and I knew about the A, I was terrified because I drew a line in the sand and I knew if he crossed it that I would have to do something. Now I'm not so worried about that, because I know it is his choice to cross the line in the sand...(and he did)

but its still not time to go to plan B...but it won't take long if he is not willing to go with me forward toward a better relationship. We have to find out. cause he won't share, he's like a closed book.

If he has his own issues (he does) i should extend as much grace as possible for him so he can crack open reality just as I did. And I have a lot of compassion for a wounded spirit and I love him I can't imagine the pain he prbably has carried for years. But extending grace doesn't mean I can accept being dishonored and hurt on purpose by him

PS. What I fear about the boundaries? that he won't care and will bulldoze and I will have to do something about it. And that means, really, that Plan B is coming...because obviously he would be showing he is unwilling to respect me...even though I have been completely respectful.

whatagirl..

I am not challenging you ON your boundaries...or lack there of...I am trying to get specific issues that we the collective can help you with....

my concern is that you are seeking communication to address issues that don't need discussed...they need action..

that you seek ways to communicate with him when the reality is that there is NOTHING wrong with what you are saying or how you are saying it...and that it is HE who CHOOSES not to value what you are saying...

and saying it this way or that way doesn't mean anything..
infact it probably plays right in to his need for smoke screens and silly little side power struggles that keep the focus off of REAL issues...like disrepectful with you...

that in fact it may be that talking to him keeps him comfortable in knowing he can and will just tune you out...
and that it may be time to NOT speak a word...

and revert to total ACTION plans....

this is difficult for EVERYONE because what it really is is changing the known to the unknown.....

I seriously doubt that any one would meet with a mediator to agree to work on a marriage....

and I don't mean that meanly...but I can't in mind grasp how that would work out....

it's like paying someone to listen to him lie once again...


..Ark, you are absolutely confusing. If I told you that I told him that "I wish you would have waited for me to set off that firework" like I did on the 4th of July...and he told me "oh get over yourself, you don't like those kind anyway" and I had no idea how to respond....I guess you would understand. ** I assume you mean I [color:"red"]WOULDN'T [/color]

Anyways..whatagirl...what I am suggesting is you develope a whole NEW language..

WHATAGIRLS new language of WORDS and ACTIONS

you say....
Boy I am SAD you set that firework off without me...I was looking forward to setting it off with you together...

he HEARS....bad husband you again did something that I do not like...you are bad...

he says grumble grumble...
oh get over yourself, you don't like those kind anyway"

you SAY...
darling..it's not the firework...it's the missed opportunity of spending time with YOU setting it off TOGETHER and watching it TOGETHER..it's not whether I like the fire work...it's that I like doing them with you...

batt your eyes
and WALK AWAY>....

is that the response he was expecting....????

I have given him absolutely everything without regard to what I was comfortable with,

that is a big common mistake....and you must amend that but you CAN NOT punish him for what you gave permission for...
it is treacherous waters to navigate...and the more you handle this with love and care...the more effective it will be..which sounds like you are ...excellent...infact the only one you are angry with is me... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


whatagirl..I have no tone..my questions are informational seeking only..
the best way to do these forum is to post SPECIFIC situations that are difficult and get opinions on how to deal with each one..then build from there...

and you don't have to follow my advice...and I will quit posting to you at all
it is only advice...take what serves you well....or not at all...

BUT
it is my opinion getting someone who is a known liar...and conflict avoider of real issues...AND disregards your emotions....that setting up and spending money and time on a mediator will blow up in your face...and make you feel bad..which is what I am trying to avoid for you...

my other advice is don't power struggle this stuff with words...
only with actions...

He can start an arguement and start blaming and the hurtful words escalate, I can tell him he is able to discuss his concerns with me but I will not tolerate being yelled at or being told that his life is miserable because of me.

don't argue with him
don't take one ounce of blame
don't power struggle
walk away as soon as the first yell or disrespectful word comes out of his...and if that means he won't talk to you at all...so be it..eventually he will try another route..

and most importantly don't call it communication when those things occur...

exiting left stage
ARK

well yeah I'm mad its hard to keep it together always. You gave me an easy target, and I never know what to do when I get angry (thats another problem)

And, thats ok, if you can take it...so be it. You are confusing perhaps, its your style of putting out the information.

and, things didn't always used to be this way between us. So I have to reverse the things I did and give him a chance to respond. If he wants to relate to me differently then praise God, if not, then I guess that means plan B. Like I said, I never stood up for myself before.

I'm not holding anything against him that was my fault, as in stuffing feelings and dealing with bitterness that I grew on my own. Its not his fault he didn't know. So now, we reverse the action and give hiim more chances. and make sure my nose is clean and my a$$ is covered with proper motivation.

Some of my friends don't understand, so I have withdrawn one by one from the negative ones and that leaves VERY FEW friends I can trust who see what I'm trying to do.

and so sometimes I get upset.

the mediator is licensed but it is by donation. and the WH would do better if he could think about his choices before the meeting, its the way he is. I think it will be OK to proceed. because its not ok to screw around on me and I have to see if he's going to make any effort at all.

Liar or not, how else is there to proceed except boot him out.

as for boundary language, I think today I will set the boundary with the blame. I guess I don't need to make an announcement today, but if he begins to dish the blame, I will state my opinion, if you wish to discuss concerns with me that is fine, but I will not listen to you blame me over and over and for you to accuse and be angry. and I will remove myself from the conversation.

As for the other language...I just don't have the skills yet to RECOGNIZE sometimes the situation and then to RESPOND appropriately...so I have a lot of work to do.

Ark, thanks again I've come back to think more on what I need to do. I am curious what 'no third parties' means so I can change it to how I will understand as will he. As far as boundaries, I have a hard time thinking that it is all or nothing. Meaning he cross the boundary its time for plan B. I think I'm off base here, but I have a difficult time seeing it any other way and need help seeing it differently.
OK, i'm doing what I need to do and willing to see what else I've missed and to keep doing it. As far as letting him know my intentions, that I will even consider removing myself from the relationship as an option? (I read that somewhere, I don't have to say I will do it but I will consider it) I do have a question about the sentance

do you mean by walking the walk and changing myself regardless of the outcome? I don't understand why I can't expect a commitment, he is my husband. I do understand I can't DEMAND a commitment.

how will i know if he's lying because I never knew before. Melody says if he's willing to show you how to earn trust back.

OK, so...with this statement, how do I address it so he knows what I need and he knows I know he can't/won't do it until he's ready.

I hate when I go into denial, its so difficult to see and then act. I do not wish to return to my old behavior of give it all and stuff it. I do not wish to attempt to control him, either. Often it is difficult to see.

PS. Things I don't have from him:

• assurance of NC and NC letter
• honesty and openness and willingness to prove himmself trustworthy
• he wants me to drop the entire matter
• no guilt or remorse (I know this comes later and under his own power--I hope I see it)
• hes still very defensive

With all this, I am assuming I have to believe he has not yet or is not willing to end contact on his own power yet. Right? and with this information I'm so confused as to Plan A, which I am still doing and trying hard not to LB and apologizing when I do. This part is confusing.