LM,

Glad you have made it a year. I hope you are here many more years. You are definitely an asset to this site and the posters here.

You are right about one thing or actually several things <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, this site does change ones perspective after awhile, and while you did not phrase it as such, it is addictive.

Finally, I think you are seeing what I have seen here for so long, the power people have to overcome some very very serious damage to themselves emotionally and even spiritually.

It is a great thing that you are here, although it is a sad thing that you ever had to come here in the first place.

God Bless,

JL

Especially when you've been here a long time and make lifetime friends here ~ it is addictive.

Like checking in with old friends. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Why does ANYONE need to make comments the way they do???? People have different styles of communication. I think that's great! If I don't "get" something one way, I have the opportunity to try and "get it" from someone who has a different style of communication.

A prime lesson for me involved the way in which an appointment with a client ends. Some clients are always very aware of the passing of time. They note to me that their time is up and get up and walk to the door. Other clients will not keep track of time, but notice when I glance at my watch or a clock. They will comment on this, we tie up any loose ends, and they get up and leave my office. Some clients require a verbal reminder or prompt that we are nearing the end of our appointment. They might continue on until I prompt them one more time, reminding them that we have the next appointment to further discuss their concerns. I have had a few clients that I have had to say "We are at the end of your time. You need to leave my office now." To me, this would normally be very rude to approach another person in this way! And then there's the person that I literally had to walk over to, kind of assist them in getting up from their chair, and walk along with them to the door and out the door to the reception area. Telling them specifically "You need to go now." They were still talking on and on as if I'd never said anything... and that, of course, their concerns were more important than others waiting to be seen! (We're not talking about an emergency situation here!)

I was so concerned about this person and others being totally offended by my firm, directive behaviors. I finally realized that some individuals didn't even begin to "hear" me at lesser, lower key levels of communication.

As far as the use of labels or sarcasm..they're one way in which to make an idea "bigger", exaggerated.. so there's no missing the concept. It can also be a way to help cover pain and anger.

The use of curse words?? Many would say "unnecessary" or totally offensive. Yet, I have found times in working with SOME addicts that they don't begin to hear you until you get down and dirty with them. Would I do this if it totally violated my morals/values? No. I have, however, involved other treatment team members who were comfortable communicating at this level(often other recovering addicts.)I have seen how a style of communication that is offensive to many people may be very helpful to some.

And...of course...I may totally alienate, hurt, or insult some people by the way in which I try and communicate something. I know that I start to shut down when anyone on this site starts to talk about the Bible, Christianity, prayer, etc. as being the solution to peoples' problems. I personally find that insulting. But, I recognize it as very helpful to others.

This is a public forum. We know the "rules" upfront. As an adult, I feel it is my responsibility to ignore or screen out comments, styles of communication,etc., that I find offensive or hurtful. I also have the right to confront them. But, I don't feel that I have the right to tell someone else how to communicate.

Personally, some of LM's comments/values come across as harsh and judgemental to me. At the same time, I delight in the fact that LM just puts it out there as he sees it!! No game playing here! I find his input to be refreshing, even if I don't always agree with the message...or maybe with MY PERCEPTION of the message!

Ahhhhhhhh...the joys of communication! Of course, that's never a problem in any of our relationships, now is it?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is "I Post to Mimi Day," and I hope LM isn't going to be offended by what I say:

Mimi, you are about my age. Lemonman is YOUNG. As I recall, he is in his early or mid-30s, yes? Because he is smart and insightful, I think it's easy to forget that.

Don't you remember being much more glib and offhand in those days? Saying things because they were clever, and not because you meant them?

You are looking for mid-years meaning in comments that have no meaning, that are just tossed off. (Alas, I have not outgrown that as much as I wish...my fingers are too fast...sometimes I should sit on my hands...)

OK, Mimi. Lets see if we can work this out. You seem frustrated with me, so I am gonna try here to sort this out.

You say you want to know about me? Right? Well, I am gonna right off the bat admit that I am probably "wired" a little different than most people here. This is no doubt shaped in large part by undergoing 6 years of surgical residency consisting of A$$ whippings (AW's) and daily "dress downs" by superiors. It was no doubt a "break you down, build you back up MY WAY" approach. There are just things that I may find humorous or react to much differently than others here. How else can you expain how I can crack the chest of some 15 year old kid who was shot 5 times at close range by rival gang punks, scoop coagulated blood out of his chest cavity, be the MD who's death he succumbed to under, tell the devestated mother that her "baby" is dead......and then go eat pizza in the MD's lounge with 5 other docs, watching Howard Stern reruns on the E network.....all in the span of 90 minutes? There is no doubt that many here would be horrified to even just read that, but that is my reality....and you know what? I am fine with it....I chose this, and love my life. You could not tell me 10 years ago that something like this would literally have NO EMOTIONAL effect me, and me believe you.

Now, to your questions in detail. I did NOT literally mean to intimate that Steve Harley was in this business just for making money or that he would knowingly give advice to just increase his profit margin. My point was just to illustrate how incredulous I was (AM) with his advice to Carnation given the whole sordid history. I think he was DEAD (censored) wrong there. Why is it almost like farting in church when someone here dares question advice he gives. That is what ruffles people's feathers. I do NOT think I have ever seen with my own eyes SOMEONE here question advice that he gives....and get away with it. Perhaps, I just missed it. I am sorry, but the way I was "trained", you have two simple rules to live by:

1. Never believe anything anyone tells you, check it out for yourself, QUESTION everything.

2. Don't ever skip lunch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You have to do this because patients life's are at stake. Now obviously this is not "literal" ,but you get the point I hope.

My overall point was this: IF Steve H gave this advice to Car, and he KNEW the whole story, and still intimated that she was making "progress", well then I can only conclude that he must have been trying to sell more books or other parts of his program. It was not said in the "literal" sense. Ofcourse I don't think that he is in this business to just sell books, but given THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION, I felt my point had some validity. Agree, disagree...it is ok with me. Does this answer your question? If it doesn't, that's ok. We'll knock it around untill we are satisfied.

SM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good God, how can you stand to do that for a living?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I am not willing to jump to conclusions about SH's advice to carnation. That is one wily old cat and he is no dummy and he is no charletan.

And honestly, LM, that really sucks that you made that accusation without a freaking shred of evidence. I am always one to question professionals [especially my own doctor] but we don't know what Dr Harley knows at this point and it is unfair to jump to hasty conclusions.

You can see that the stuff we have been telling her is not working, LM. So maybe he sees a better approach that we can't see. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and withhold judgement. Especially knowing how damn successful he is.

I see you got your sorry [censored] in trouble on this thread with your RN jokes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I knew you were headed to the dawg house over that one. lol

this is the part I have my doubts about .... "the whole story" ... ummmm doubtful any of us have heard the whole story ... it's prolly worse than we know!

The particular poster who took offense to this is not a suprise to me at all, and she should 100% be able to show her "differing opinion" towards my views, and I am fine with that. Outside of the admittedly juvenille references I made (re: "zeals" and "pope") I fully stand behind my view on this situation. It can be "spun" (which ofcourse she so eloquently did) every which way but loose, BUT the FACTS as perceived BY ME stay the same. Someone being rubbed the "wrong" way or someone's "animosity" won't change that... , pulleeeze. Are you referring to me here...

and just so you know there's a big difference between the word...pope...and Pope.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

ARK

And, if I may ask what about your personal life? Are you able to be intimate with folks outside of WORK...

Some of by very BEST FRIENDS are DOCs... but in their REAL LIVES they are just like anybody else...

To me, that's to ME now, you put yourself on another level almost untouchable...

I've been trying to dig a little deeper... What a pun!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Later...

Mel, I was only basing my opinion on WHAT WAS TOLD TO ME AS FACT HERE. Car told us she told him everything.....everything. The whole thing. You are right, it was an assumption, based on WHAT WAS TOLD TO ME. Perhaps, I erred on assuming that he knew everything....but based on what was TOLD to me, I formed this opinion. Give SH the doubt, no problem, he is obviously very skilled and successful at what he does (and I can honestly appreciate that), but I truly think ****SOME**** people here are more upset at the fact that I am questioning his advice, rather than a remark that I made that was NOT LITERAL.

As far as I am concerned, does it really matter anymore? Carnation knows what I meant, and in the end, ONLY she is ultimateley responsible for her actions and the subsequent consequences no matter what they may be. She was very happy as I recall after her talk with SH, and felt that she got great advice and had renewed hope and vigor for her marriage. That is what matters. Not what the ****** I think....LOL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It was her money, and her invested time and emotions....not mine. I will conceed that maybe I am the one DEAD WRONG here and Steve is right, but I still stand by my right to question it.

If anyone really wants to turn this board into a board where NOONE is allowed to question or disagree with SH, then honestly just say so. If those parameters are out there, perhaps these "misunderstandings" won't happen.

I can still freely participate in the discussions here and leave my views that disagree with his specific advice OUT OF THE PUBLIC FORUM for consumption. Honestly I can. There are more than enough things to talk about here.

If that many people wants this, just say so. There has been IMHO to much already made about this, and to me it is not worth it. We are "flogging" this argument.

SM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL.....that has me chuckling out loud. I like it.

SM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How did this congratulatory thread turn into a fistfight? Kind of like the machine-gun birthday party.

And can you think of a more fitting tribute to lemonman?

Mimi:


Interesting point. What do you mean by it? I would love to know what you mean?

LM

Yes, isn't that something. Sometimes you can just say WTF?


LOL...... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SM

Oh my gawd !!! I am shaking here. I do not believe this.

If I told SH everything ??? We do not know the whole story !!!

Why am I even here ??? People do not believe what I write ??? Why even bother ???? Is NO ONE paying attention ????

Carnation (crying)

carnation
not you didn't tell the whole story..

people here on the forums never have the whole story..

the nature of the beast..
the way the forum is set up...

no way to convey a life time of emotions and events in this flat forum...

that's what people are saying...

that all of us sit around and form our opinions and advice..
and ALL mean well with what they are saying...
it just is never the same as face to face hands on life lines...

it is a very limited communcication form...

ARK

That's bullcrap and spin. You know darn good and well people are incensed that you insinuated he is a charletan, only out for a quick buck, not that you "questioned" him. sheesh, you called him the "pope" in a backhanded slam. That was really shabby and I would dislike the insinuation no matter who it was made against.


And NOBODY has questioned your right to question him: NO BODY. What folks have issue with are your cheap shots and nasty, uninformed conclusions. That is not right, LM.

Sure, he may have the same facts we do [altho I sort of doubt it] but for all you know, he may have a better strategy than you or I. I have to withhold judgement on that and see what happens. But I have no conpunction about challenging professionals, my doctor flees when she sees me coming with my hands full of "research" from PubMed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Oh quit, that is not the issue and never has been. Quit trying to pretend that you simply "questioning." You were condemning, not "questioning." Calling him names and implying he is a charletan out to make a buck is not "questioning." It is an attack.

LOL, you know that was a funny remark, but all my life used to revolve around people at work. ALL MY FRIENDS were work related. And guess what we talked about when we were outside of work? WORK? $hiiiyt gets old.

As I have recovered from this affair, I find my self spending more time with NON-medical people......doing a triathalon training program with friends, playing golf with my brother (who is a DOC), but with other NON doc friends on Saturdays. I am building a new house, and have developed a very good friendship with the architect who is modifying the plans for me...so there are folks out there. They keep me grounded.My running partner is a female 4th grade teacher, and gives me great perspective on all of this $hit. She has suffered through the same ****** as me in times past and we have alot in common. (No, get your mind out of the gutter....I am definitely NOT her type......but we still keeeewlllll.

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Car hon, this does not have anything to do with you, please believe that. This isn't at all about what you told sh. I apologize for my part in this degenerating to this point. I was honestly afraid of this. Oh well, what ca you do. Lets move on to someting else tonight......sigh.....