I WANT TO SCREAM AT HIM!

Sorry. Losing it. Still awake. Haven't slept in three days. Said I wouldn't get sucked into Phil's drama and here I am -- day three -- sucking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I feel like a$$.

At this point I am just venting. THere are no answers. It's all a$$. SICK of THIS! WHY WHY WHY WHY won't he just LEAVE ME THE FRUK ALONE?!??!

OK. Melting down. I wish I could say it's hard to put such a sweet face forward. It's not. It's hard to be left hanging - waiting - KNoWING I am an idiot for having been myself.

Why shouldn't I lie and be fake and paw around all of his things and treat him like he is nothing but so much garbage to me? Why shouldn't I act the way he acts? Except he has been nothing but nice to me for months now.

He has been practically perfect except for the fact that we're not together. It's maddening. How am I supposed to complain when he is being so nice to me? Easy -- HE's still in contact with that - that -- her. [sputter]

I know, I'll call him in the middle of the night and wake him up and tell him how much I miss him and love him and wish things were different the way he did to me.

Oh yeah, but if I did something like that I'd be CRAZY. When he does it it's because he's overcome with emotion and can't tell anyone else the way he can tell me.

a$$. a$$$$$$$$ big dumba$$.
That feels better. Bad night and he has nasty OW and I am alone with the dogs and my loneliness is just eating at me. This house is emptier than ever with so much moved into storage. Maybe I should move my things back in? Maybe tomorrow I will go get some of my things. Yeah.

Sal

I hate to sound negative, but I don't want you to have your expectations up.

All of the things that he did could have been to meet his own needs. He feels guilty and like such a jerk that all of this helped him feel better about himself.

He threw you a crumb. If he sincerely didn't want you to come home to an empty house, why did he leave?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sal

going over your post again, I think Aussie is right BUT remember he did say its just a leaning and hes doing NOTHING but look in your direction right now.
WHy??
Well you went away, You were not around to email, or ring..he got a bit nervous good ol Sal was not there any more ... hes thinking 'WHo did she REALLY go away with or meet there?" because thats what he would do!!

At last the phil that is there now.

I said it over in IV and I'll say it here a bit clearer..you've got to pull away let him follow and fight for beng with you, or let him wonder off.

I would love to think he was trying to show you he was not just playing you, for your sake, but in truth hes probably back to the old OW with Sal fix.

MAybe for your own benefit Sal you need to do a Plan B type of thing for a while..separate youself from his cr*p.

Why? .... because he does not have your best interests at heart ... not really.

If he did, he'd either commit and marry you ... or he would cut all strings so you could finally heal and get him out of your life to make space for something, or someone else who wouldn't DEvalue your worth.

You are a pleasurable "add-on" to HIS life ... this is not how a man shows love to THE woman in his life.

This was a tease.

How does it feel?

Memorize this feeling ... and recognize it when it returns.

If you had courage, you'd do just that.... and any honest response ... would be in your "favor".

Anything short of a resounding

A: "YES ... I SO MUCH WANT TO MAKE YOU MY WIFE FOR LIFE" ...

is this

B: "NO ... I DO NOT WANT YOU AS MY WIFE."

If he says ... "I'm just so confused, I don't know what I want." ---> the answer is B

Your problem is that you hear an imaginary answer

C: "IF SALLY CAN JUST DO A FEW THINGS DIFFERENTLY, THE ANSWER WILL MAGICALLY CHANGE FROM B ---> TO A."

Sally - I don't know if your Phil is anything like my WH, but mine cannot be comfortable being alone. After D-day, he continued to contact me telling me have loved me, blah, blah, blah. Actually he was taking that time to firm up the relationship with the OW. But he wanted to be very sure his back-up (me) was waiting in the wings.

That is why I think a rather short Plan A, and then a solid Plan B is the best bet. A long Plan A just gives the adulterers time to work on their relationship.

But whatever happens, you will be just fine. I am much happier now, and looking back, can't believe how long I put up with all of this.

Hey Sally,

Remember I was telling you about Phil's comfort zone...and how when Sally started doing more without his knowledge, and how Sally started to move on with daily life...all of a sudden Phil was more involved in Sally's life?

I do think he is testing the waters, but I think he is cake eating too.

I do agree with what Pep said - except that I don't think you are hoping you do things different it will change. i think Sprint told ya that one day that when a man has his mind made up - there is nothing you can do to change it...all you can do is move on, or wait for him to figure it out. It didn't matter what I did in recovery for Sprint...he was determined to leave and move on to replace me...didn't matter what I did during the seperation...he had to come to it on his own. That's why I love when people say Plan A and Plan B are about bettering yourself - cause it's TRUE! You may tempt the WS...but honestly - they have to come around on their own.

That's what you need to figure out...can you wait a bit longer? Or has it been too long...and is it time to move on...only you know the answer to that.

You all touched on key issues with me and the Phil mess and oh my gawd! Thank you for all the input. I want to respond to your insightful points individually. Can I share the things I’ve identified as setting me off yesterday first? It’s been a while since I spiraled down, overloaded on negativity that was mostly self-generated. I will be happier with myself when I don’t do that sort of thing at all though!

Duh! No wonder the meltdown. This is the midway place in my HRT cycle and since May, when I started, I’ve noticed that when my body either makes or doesn’t make enough of its own hormones in conjunction with the therapy, I experience major extremes of mood shifting. I hate it. It’s horrible but I hate what menopause does more. Anyway, I realized this morning that I was right at that place…

Another of the things was that a friend cancelled dinner plans. Normally, no big, but there are some other factors that made me give waaay more emotional weight to that than I should have… The background for the short reason is long but I don’t know how else to explain it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This friend, an older, now divorced, man who is also a long-time business associate, is the one person that Phil has openly expressed extreme dislike for – to the point where Phil even asked me not to be friendly with this person. This request came while we were discussing reconciliation – six months ago right after Phil left. In late March, before D-day when Phil was coming over for these pseudo-dates a couple of times a week, Phil explained his feelings about that friendship in greater depth, telling me stuff he never shared before.

Phil said he always felt that this man was sexually attracted to me – even when my friend was married, and that he always thought my friend was “after me”. Phil said he always felt my friend went out of his way to make Phil feel uncomfortable, unwelcome and shamed in front of me. He said he felt like this man purposely arranged get-togethers where Phil was excluded, that he thought this man was not trustworthy. Phil was concerned that I might not even be so safe with this man and then he openly said he had a problem with my maintaining a friendship with this person and preferred me to limit my interactions to only business situations.

During the last six months, I have gotten together with this friend three times. Twice before Phil and I had the discussion and once after d-day. That time after, I was uncomfortable because I felt like I was betraying Phil’s request. Also, I really did consider all Phil had said and I was looking at my own behavior and my friend’s behavior critically.

I learned that at least with regard to my friend having treated Phil poorly, Phil had been right. My friend had little respect for Phil. I failed Phil and the home-team with my disregard and lack of awareness of what a bad attitude my friend showed Phil. I felt pretty awful with this new knowledge. However, during this whole time, my friend has continued to be a giving, steady presence for ME even though I have largely stopped being in contact with him in person or otherwise. Last night’s meeting was business-related. I need work and there may be a situation available at my old company, where my friend is VP. My friend asked if he could consult with me and so I jumped at it…

So I was all emotional. It took a ton of courage for me to decide to do some things that I KNOW could halt positive progress with Phil – getting together with this person Phil has asked me not to be friends with and pursuing a job with this person where I would be working together with him daily. It took a lot for me to face my friend considering that I have been a pretty awful friend to him for half a year now. And it was very humbling that he asked for my help. When he cancelled, I felt lost and that maybe I deserved it. – like maybe I wasn’t wanted for the work, maybe I wasn’t wanted as a friend and I felt guilty for about taking steps that were negatives for Phil and maybe what Phil had said before was really true…

But it wasn’t so! First thing this morning, my friend called to reschedule our meeting for after work today and explained that he had an emergency prayer meeting last night… Color me red with shame. I am guilty of being a reactive, irrational, emotional dope!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday’s other big head-spinner: Since June, I’ve been making more effort to be around men. Which is to say I went from actively avoiding men almost everywhere (except for the safety of MB’s virtual community and a couple of old college friends abroad) to just acting normal. My trust of men was so damaged after D-day that I even stopped going to any places where I would have to make any conversation with men. I really didn’t want to interact. I felt safer with women. When I started to make an effort to co-exist in the world around men again, I met someone I felt I could chat to safely. It was unexpected for me. I’m still not terribly comfortable around men, with the exception of Phil. And yes, I know that doesn’t make a lot of sense since he is the one who betrayed me but that is how it is…. Aren’t we humans strange animals? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This guy seemed nice. It turns out he is a great guy. He didn’t seem to want anything from me. He wasn’t after a relationship. He didn’t seem to care about my looks. Our conversation was light and not deeply personal and that somehow made it all seem terribly personal. His seeming lack of interest in my looks made me feel safe and comfortable being physically near. It is weird for me to be physically near a man I am totally uninvolved with and feel all heady. Anyway, I have a first guy friend post-Phil.

It’s the first time in almost nine years I’ve had more than passing small-talk with a man that wasn’t Phil, a business associate or an old friend. Any friendships with other men pre-dated my friendship, and then romance, with Phil. I worry a little about a friendship that Phil could perceive as another negative to being with me. I felt strange spending time with a man that wasn’t my love. I find myself wishing I could talk to Phil so easily and safely again and I remember how he and I started our romance, first, as very safe, non-intimate, pals-y friends.

So I’ve been a bit overwhelmed. I could have all of this emotional feeling for someone that isn’t Phil and strangely, even though I could - I don’t - only comfortable, friendly feelings and not true emotional intimacy. It’s a happy thought that I can feel attraction but sooo strange not to feel all the love that I am accustomed to feeling along with my physical attraction for Phil. It’s almost like validation of what I’ve thought for so long. I don’t say never, but it’s real to me -- there may not be a man I will love and want to be a wife with, share a life with, other than Phil. Now that is not a fun thought since I’m where I’m at…

Much like my wondering why I want a man who cheated on me and lied to me and doesn’t want me back, I wonder why when I meet a nice, seemingly safe, friendly man, why don’t I choose to want that man instead of Phil? I wonder if I really made a mistake not looking at other men when Phil and I were together. But it wasn’t really a choice – I had zero interest. I got all worked up about this because I’m NOT confused about these friendly feelings but I wish I was. I wish I wasn’t just happy to be pals. I wish I was falling in love and had a convenient escape from reality the way there was for Phil. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But no I’m not like that I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

So! Gotta deal with that bit of self-maunfactured nastiness and also need to deal better with the hormonal mood swing crazies!

Sally

I hope it is just perimenopause and not actual menopause.
I am still in perimenopause. I take a tiny bit of natural progesterone cream on certain days of my cycle by prescription from a compounding pharmacy. (I have a holistic GYN) I am lots older than you are. Are you still fertile and did you planned on having kids o your own if you marry? Just curious.
But I do understand hormonal mood swings.

Hey Trix,

Technically, it's been perimenopause for the last five years or so since I still have occasional periods. The last time I was fertile was May and I had a little party for me on my thread! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think the longest I've gone between is 6 months...

Honestly, Phil and I weren't sure about having kids. We thought we weren't ready to be parents regardless of the likelihood of me getting pregnant -- We knew it was unlikely but we weren't rushing. We both genuinely felt that we were lucky in each other and that was the most important part of our decision to marry.

We did touch base on the subject frequently. We always agreed when we were ready to be parents (and married!), we would figure out our options then. We discussed did some preliminary exploration of adoption and surrogacy practices.

We even discussed adopting an older child. We both felt very strongly about adopting at least one child even if we COULD have our own DNA-matching baby. Too many kids out there with no parents and all... Anyway, Phil he was 100% supportive about all of it. Surrogacy was his idea... and before the snide remarks start and I wind up feeling compelled to defend his honor when I am so pee'd at him, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> he meant it in the very not natural sense!

When I got pregnant last year it was a HUGE shock. The pregnancy and then the loss changed a lot of things for both of us. The guilt related to the loss and not having been sure if I was ready to be a mom was beyond terrible. My depression last summer - well you've read about that in other threads - I won't re-hash again here. Phil and I both suffered so much. We're still both healing.

I know now, that I am as ready as I will ever be to be a mom and I still really want to be a mom. And family is still so important to me. I told Phil that too when we talked about the baby a couple of weeks ago so he knows where my head is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> With Phil or not, it's still old-fashioned way for me - husband first. Baby second. With any luck.

Sal

You may want to look into information about Dr. John Lee's books on Perimenopause, Menopause, and natural hormone replacement.

If he sincerely didn't want you to come home to an empty house, why did he leave?

Susan, Phil has apologized, sincerely and tearfully, many times for leaving me and also the way he left me. I don't have any questions about why he left. He left because he didn't know any other way to start feeling better about living his life. He was a wreck inside. Therapy wasn't helping him or me and he didn't see any better option. I believe that. He knows now that there was another, better option available. He also knows the option is still there but he thinks it's too late to try now.

I point out that it hasn't been a long time since he didn't feel guilty at all but felt completely justified and said he decided rationally that leaving me was right and fair for him to do and that I should have known it was coming and so on. He is saying completely different things now.

Yes, he feels very guilty. That could be why he is motivated to engage me more nicely, and that is still a very big change in the man that spent all of his time avoiding conflict. He could much more easily have chosen to drop off the dogs and avoid me all together, as he said he thought he would do at first. In fact, it would have been easier if he hadn't offered to take care of the boys at all in the first place but he did, and then given plenty of time to back out, he didn't.

I'm going to give him love bank credit for all of that. He is trying and I also happen to know that he isn't trying as hard with the other relationships in his life - family, friends and so on. Any place where there might be conflict, he is actively avoiding. He hasn't been in touch with his best friend in almost a month! There is a reason for that. So when OW seems to be chasing him, perhaps that really is the case. But where that is concerned, I am still going to think the worst until proven otherwise.


he does not have your best interests at heart ... not really.

Pep, re: Phil having my best interests at heart, I agree with you. He is still putting himself first. His actions are not fully altruistic. But then again, neither are mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, he is trying and to what end, I still don't know. Could be he wants a back up. Could be he doesn't want me to hate him. Could be he is figuring out that love is a choice. All of that is him though.

Now, re: me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yeah. I can be pretty damn chicken-sh*t! I am scared of being alone for the rest of my life. I am scared of being with a cheater for the rest of my life. I am scared of making bad decisions. I am scared of so many things. And I am still here and still brave enough to face it all head on. I say bring it. I also say I would prefer to not HAVE to be brave about these things. I'd much rather have a relationship with no cheating, but that isn't what I got so now I am dealing. And if I am slow in that, well, I am OK with that but selfishly, I want Phil to be quick! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The me or everyone else question and the value me statement strike me as being dangerous ground. Phil doesn't know what he wants. That isn't a yes, he wants me but it isn't a no either. It's a null vote. When asked almost any direct question (in personal terms) he is avoiding committing even to an answer right now. It's easier for him not to answer right now. I don't like it but I recognize it. I would much rather get an honest, thought out NO when and if he gets his head on straight than wonder for the rest of my life "if only I had been more patient". And if my patience wears out before that then so be it. I will have my answer.

But right now... he has no answer to give me. He doesn't know.


Actually he was taking that time to firm up the relationship with the OW.

believer, if you read above you'll see that I have considered this. It would be very Phil-like to wait for OW. He waited for me to see him as a man, a romantic man for me, for over a year. Phil can be very patient. And very stubborn. I'm ready for more detachment. Yesterday sucked, hormones and wheel-spinning aside. It just sucked. I want out of the Phil drama.


Bringing me to aussieswife

you've got to pull away let him follow and fight for beng with you, or let him wonder off.

and dorry...

Remember I was telling you about Phil's comfort zone...how Sally started to move on with daily life...all of a sudden Phil was more involved in Sally's life?

Yes. It's time pull away more of the comfort zone. If he wants to have the life he had with me with the ME part, he will have to figure that out for himself. Sorry if he didn't believe me when I said it, but we are NOT friends. I am not going to settle for that. I was very plain about it and it was just a couple of weeks ago. He wants to borrow my books? They come with the Athelny curse! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He wants to talk about his woes -- Athelny curse again. I am a whole package. No pieces parts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

He is building in buffers by leaving me with his belongings, making excuses to see me. I'm not a dummy either. I know he is making excuses to see me. Thing is he doesn't need an excuse. No excuse will be enough if I don't want to see him! It works both ways. And since I know it and he doesn't really seem to get it, I can handle his leaving his stuff here.

I don't know why he does it but I guess I don't need to know why. If he wanted to be separated 100% from me, he would be. If he wanted to have no contact, he would do that. When I instituted no contact before D-day, it was NO CONTACT. He went nuts. Found out he cried to the OW the whole time about how much he missed me...

So yeah, less Phil, more Sally. And if I need to leave town again to deal better, then I will. I'm putting me first now. Just needed that reminder. THANKS!

Sal

Post deleted by Improving

Phil was right. I was wrong.
Phil was right. I was wrong.
Phil was right. I was wrong.

Now multiply by a gazillion.

Phil was right the whole time about my friend. The job thing was bull. My friend for so many years in reality is an [censored]. I already mailed Phil my apology. He deserved an apology and he deserved to hear that he was right.


Sally

Improving,

Hi, thanks for the link, but it doesn't work. I think some of the URL got lost.

Sally

I know I'm completely toxic on hormones but I'm spinning out of control. I feel like calling Phil and letting the most awful spew come out of my mouth. Words from yesterday's visit with now ex-friend are reverberating in my head. . . It's bad. . .

Sal

{{Sally}}

I guess x-friend-fiend..came on a bit strong?

{{{faithful!}}}
Thank you for being you. You know, I feel like I owe you an apology. I've been so self-centered - haven't posted to you but I'm aware you're out there and always wanting to talk to you. I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me for being such a pill these last three days?

Sal

Sally, no need my friend. We all have our times of being wrapped up in our own troubles.