Dear Aaron ~
I've never seen recovery sucdeed where the WS made up the list of rules.

I've never seen recovery succeed where privacy is required by the untrustworthy spouse.

I've never seen recovery succeed where the BS does not value him/herself.

All I can say is that we will still be here when you need us again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Each of you should Read His Needs Her Needs.

There is no right to privacy in a marriage.
People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. Remember those two lines.

Dr. Harley says that we should never trust our spouse 100%.

I wish you'd just go to Pullman and focus on your education.
Don't you dare give that up for her.

Unfortunately, I agree. You need to tread very carefully and be very weary. Keep your eyes and ears open. I think a bit of W was showing through, but as she is making the rules, this does not bode well. I am sorry. She has not hit bottom. Here's hoping I am wrong... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok Fox,

Did you read MM's post to you. Let me remind you of what I once told MM and have told many others. I am a lot older than you and in fact MM. I have observed in my life that when there was a big decision to make, that when it came time to make it, I could make many choices but the data was always very clear as to which was the best choices at the time.

You are at that point. Let me offer to you what I see as the data and where it is point you.

1. The data clearly says you go back to college.

2. The data clearly says you have issues with being alone and they need addressing.

3. The data clearly shows that your W is very immature, but alot of what she just told has some merit.

4. She is asking you to "let go" and trust her and I think the data clearly shows that is exactly what you must do, not for her but for yourself. You need to face down your demons and your fears. If you were NOT afraid what would you do?

I think Pep asked someone that question or maybe it was believer. As yourself that question.

5. There is another piece of data you have NOT factored in. You fear being along right? You fear not being loved or cared for, and YET look at what is going on right now, a bunch of strangers are taking enormous time and effor to reach out and help you, why? Because you deserve the help. Don't you see the next person you meet in your life may well be the one that helps you the most, don't be afraid of that. You are NOT alone, you have never been alone really. You just needed to reach out and look what happened?

6. I think you need to heed MM's advice about your spirituality and look for peace and balance in your life. And with that will come more data.

Fox, your decision will become obvious in due time. Go to Pullman, leave your W here, grow, meet people, reach out to people, and trust that most people are of good heart. You will NOT be alone if you do these things, and you will NOT need your W. I did not say you would not want your W in your life, but you don't need her Fox. She doesn't need you either and that is the final piece of data I see. She does not need you, but she may still love you. You don't need her although you do love her.

So go to college in peace. Trust that the truth will come out, and trust that you are NOT alone. Look at all of the "strangers" that have come here to help you. Take that data to the bank, let it sit, and then reevaluate it.

Oh! and your W is right, it is important to have a good relationship with her folks. Work on that.

Please reread MM's post, and then "peacefully gather the data" you will find the answer will become obvious in due time.

God Bless,

JL

post deleted by Trix

Fox,

Do you trust an addict with bottle of jack daniel ?

She is running a classic WS script. BARGAINING !.

Good luck. -rh-

Another great post from JL with sage advice. Listen to him, FOX.

I would do Plan B - but everything I hear and see from my W/WS is that she needs me in her life; that she needs to see change in me in order to commit fully - she wants to see this change, and see the old me when she spends time with me again. I can't help but feel like ignoring her, which I've already seen in the brief day or so of Plan B and the week earlier in which I did it, upsets her and makes her feel like I'm going back to my old ways of ignoring and neglecting her/us. Although part of the anger is coming from the WS...it is also coming from my W as well, feeling abandoned and alone. You guys have to realize that this isn't just her WS that needs me for her right now.

In one sense, she wants to eat cake; however, in another, she wants to reach out and see the old husband that never put anything before her, and that always was there for her, even when she was hurt and confused; I've seen this when we've talked in person and she's cried from the depths of my W's heart - out from under the WS's grasp - I've seen this. And that's why I am terrified of running Plan B...not necessarily because of me, but because of her. Like you said before, Plan B is about making me a stronger man for my wife. I strongly believe that if we can commit to a strong Plan A in which we are both committed, not only will I grow - but as will she. She needs me right now...being in Pullman while she is at home will allow me to separate to a certain extent, enough so to not get dragged down in the chaos; but also, like my W said,

"Being apart before we were married made those moments we spent together that much more special. We didn't take a single moment we spent together for granted, and the times we shared together were heaven because of this - I honestly think being apart right now, although hard, will be the best thing for us in order to see past this pain and see how much we truly mean to each other; especially the times we get to spend together."

She has a valid point. Before we got married and we were in a long distance relationship, we had never been closer - the time we spent together meant the world to both of us; and in time, as we began to see more and more of each other; we began to take that time for granted - and at the time; neither of us was mature enough to communicate our problems; something we have both agreed we want to work on through counseling and mediation.

I'm caught here and really confused. In one sense I see how giving my wife her privacy will let her trust me again - as far as me being able to trust her is concerned...but in another sense, I also see how it sets her up for disaster. For some reason I can't get the idea through her head that married people have nothing to hide from one another; that there is no privacy - some of my friends don't understand this either.

I'm stuck because I have people telling me "Leave her, she's not worth it - you can do better," but no one understands how she is feeling inside - I've seen it in person, I've talked to her, I've seen how badly she's hurting through all of this - in one sense, although she is being selfish; it is because she's trying to protect herself - she is a wreck right now, she doesn't know what she wants, and I'm very worried about her falling into something much worse. All see kept telling me the other day was "Leave me Aaron, I'm not worth this. I'm not worth anything." She keep putting herself down and sounded extremely depressed. I've asked her about medicine but she refuses to go on ADs. Yes, my wife is immature - but she also needs someone to be here for her; I made that promise, through sickness and in health, better or for worse, and right now; I would rather put her well-being before mine (as far as emotionally...I will live no matter what happens.) so that I know she's going to be alright. She only has one real friend, who pretty much ignores her most of the time. Her family although loves her, doesn't really know how to show it; and most of her life, Shannon has also felt neglected. She needs someone right now, and I'd much rather be there for her while she's unstable like this and end up losing her, than to just leave and have her fall apart again like she did before me.

I'm caught in a rut, and I'm really praying for guidance right now..

And I'm sorry if I'm flying off the strict Plan A/Plan B handle here - I'm sure no one on this board has frustrated any of you more than I am right now...but hey, what are young people here for? (I say that jokingly of course...) I think because of our age and backgrounds; mixed with what is going on, there is a lot more to take into account; at least being in this situation is making me feel that way - maybe I'm way off base.

I do thank you all for being patient with me and sticking with me through this.

Aaron ~ I was 20 years old when my boyfriend (now husband) "cheated" on me all summer.

My emotional reaction at that time was just like yours - a wild, devastated rollercoaster. I would have done anything to get him back. I tried begging, pleading, bargaining - I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat....I didn't think that I could possibly live without him. My life was over, no one else would ever want me.

At that time, there was no one in my life to help me - to show me how horribly emotionally dependent I was on my then boyfriend.

Believe me, when I say I can hear myself, all those years ago, coming right out of your posts.

I had no one in my life to give me any kind of direction or perspective. I didn't recognize that my self-worth was based on whether or not my boyfriend wanted me. I truely believed that if he didn't want me, I was worthless. I did not think that any other man would ever find me attractive, and I truely believed I needed to be in a relationship to be whole.

When his parents found out, and bullied my husband through guilt and fear (how could you dump BR, she is the only DECENT girl you'll ever get to love you) to take me back...I dropped out of college, and a few months later married him.

Of course, I knew I shouldn't give up my college education, but like you, I thought my situation was special and deserved a different approach.

That approach was incredibly wrong.

I was young, and I truely didn't understand the impact that my decisions would have on my future. I thought if I just loved my husband enough, because he needed me to love him and trust him, that my husband would be healed of all his anger and drinking and dysfunction.

How arrogant I was, to think that my love could heal someone of years of hurt.

Even though, my behavior was that of a doormat, what I really was (and most doormats are) was a prideful controller who thought that she knew best. My situation was special, and *I* could fix my husband.

17 years later...(I'm 37 now!)...I can't tell you how terribly wrong I was.

What I now know, is that broken people do not fit together to make a "whole" relationship. I now know that broken people (and I was, as much as he was) can not fix others. I now know that healthy people can't fix broken people either. I know that each of us has free will to choose our own paths.

I work for a Swiss pharmaceutical company now, where education is everything, surrounded by doctors and scientists. I am just as smart and intelligent as any of them. However, I have to work twice as hard, and still am denied opportunities not because I can't do the work...but because I don't have that little certificate that says I am educated. A college diploma is the price of admission in so many places. I am doing quite well for myself actually, but my point is, that who knows what I really could have done with my life had I not decided to take care of my husband instead of taking care of me. Instead of training doctors on how to file their paperwork with FDA, I could have been an expert on cutting edge medical research...

I won't say I wasted my life. But I could have invested it better!

I guess what I am trying to say Aaron, is that making life-altering decisions right now is a bad idea. The impact will be with you for the rest of your life. Going back to college is a good idea, no matter what happens.

You can not save your wife. You can not carry this burden for her. You can not do the footwork for her. She must do those things for herself, or she will never grow.

You can not love her into recovery Aaron, if that was the case, every addict out there would be cured. Your mother would have been saved. My husband would have been cured long ago.

Sacrificing yourself is, from where you stand, a noble gesture. From where I stand in the future 17 years, I can assure you that it is not noble, but selfish and self-serving.

When you do for others what they can and and should do for themselves - you get to feel good and wise and superior, at the expense of the other person, who has been denied a life experience they need to grow.

Your situation is not special Aaron, even if you are!

Fox,

JL's and BrambleRose's posts are full of wisdom. Please re-read them, often.

My two cents? Go back to Pullman. Get into counseling for your issues. As for Shannon's requirements: Allow her the freedom to make and go out with friends and you do the same at Pullman. When you are together bring your friends into the mix so you can have mutual friends.

Allow her the email privacy for now, it really is a moot question anyway because she won't grant you that access, but tell her that she has to understand that your antenna are up for trouble and that her giving you the password to her email would help YOU rebuild trust in HER. She needs to understand that even though earlier in your marriage she did nothing wrong to deserve mistrust, she recently HAS done things that make you mistrust her.

And don't ever ever let her say that is your fault. There were two unhappy people in this marriage and only one of them cheated. She chose to do that.

The computer: make new guidelines for yourself. The computer is for emailing friends and doing homework ONLY. Break free of the computer habit and get out and live life.

School: Negotiations are appropriate here. You say the best education for you is at Pullman. She doesn't feel she can get the same equivalent for herself. This has to be resolved and discussing it in marital counseling is advised. Perhaps she can get what she wants at Pullman, or you can get what you want at a different school, but these things have to be seriously thought through. For now, you go back to Pullman with the promise that you will discuss this in counseling. It is too big a deal to just capitulate because you feel guilty for hounding Shannon in the past.

Happiness: You both want to be happy. Tell her you will give it your bext shot to make her happy and that you require nothing short of the same from her direction. Again, she has hurt YOU as well. She needs to take her share of the blame so she begin her share of the rebuilding.

Building a family: It is unreasonable for Shannon to say she doesn't want you to be scared of having a family. This is an issue she needs help on. She believes that a family will give her the stability she craves. It is her immaturity dictating on this one, Aaron. And she is dead wrong. The worst thing the two of you could do before your marriage is on a solid foundation and the two of you are psychologically healthy would be to bring a baby into your lives.

Like your education, offer to negotiate this with the counselor (as I am sure that any counselor worth their salt will be on your side in this and can help Shannon to understand she is not ready to be a mother). But in any case, do not have unprotected sex with Shannon. Just because she doesn't seem to get pregnant easily means nothing. I didn't either. Took years for the first pregnancy and it was twins!! Another came along 18 months later -- you better believe it was a darn good thing we were both mature enough and financially sound enought to handle the pressure! Byt he time number four came around we could handle it.

I can't say this enought. You know she CAN get pregnant, you need to make sure she doesn't. And since she is insistent on starting a family, you need to take the precautions and work with a counselor on this huge issue.

You only appear to have one requirement at this time: Counseling. Stand by that.

Peace and Blessing to you, Aaron.

~ Snow

But he's got to take into account the life altering decision he made a year and a half ago.....getting married. That's something he's having to figure into all decisions he's making now....big, small and in between.

I don't think that Shannon is truley ready to work on things just yet. It looks a bit more hopeful than it did a few days ago, but she's still got to take things more seriously before she's really ready to make things work.

While I agree that going back to Pullman is best for Aaron (and may be best for the M at this point since his W is still not really committed), what about when and if she comes around and is ready to drop all her excuses and demands and get down to the hard work of recovering the M? When does the M become equally important as the education?

While I agree with BrambleRose in her looking back on her situation, but that was a dating situation, not a marriage, so this situation is a little bit different.

As usual, JL is right on!

Fox,

You wrote a PBL right? I nthat PBL you set out guidelines for your wife to return, right? Okay, did she meet them? She said she wants to go to counseling. She said that there will be no more dating OMs. What else did you stae were her terms of surrender?

I am asking you this for one reason. If she has met the terms, then you have a choice. It is either divorce or recovery. Plan B always goes to one of those two. As JL and others were trying to tell you here, it isnt that you are a Plan B failure. She is responding to the Plan B. It is how you need to proceed now that she is responding.

Just because my wife showed up one night and agreed to the PBL and wanted to come home, didnt mean that we just moved back in together and proceeded forward into happily-ever-after. Recovery is HARDER than Plan A or Plan B!!

What I am trying to tell you is that you have to do what JL said. Take this tiem to work on you. Do you need to stay NC with your wife? No. As long as she has met the terms of the PBL, then you can begin to talk as you did last night, begin to do the small things that will lead to big things.

So, you go off to school and start getting your life together. You and Shannon plan weekend trips for her to come there, or you to come meet. You plan in phone calls or email messages to each other. You plan in counseling. If you cant afford counseling, then she is always welcome to come here as we all can help her.

This will be a slow tedious, step-by-step process. Begin to talk to your wife about the valid things she brought up i nthe conversation. Like her wanting to go to school. Plan for it. Talk about where she wants to go, what she wants to study. Begin to support her in what she wants to do, and to try to plan a future where both of yoru wants and needs are met.

You have a very unique opportunity here, Fox. You two are so young, and your marriage is so new, that the two of you can take what you ahve learned and really build something here. But it is all i nthe decisions you make.

As JL said, the two of you need time to move slowly here. To move forward slowly. She wants a family right? So, plan for it. Find a way that the two of you both agree on school where you will live, kids, etc. By agreeing, then you both feel a part of it. Ownership. And people rarely trash what they feel like they own. And by going thru this process of planning and agreeing, the two of you are beginning to intertwine your wants, needs and desires.

This can be a great start. Your Plan B will have worked if you make the right decisions now. Listen to God. Take the tiem and listen to your wife and many of the valid things she brought up. And then, after everything is in, you will know what to do.

I think this is actually very promising if the two of you will stick to this and take this as the starting point...and move forward.

In His arms.

Fox-

Please listen to these people......I was in a similar situation, I was so desperate to be back with my WH that I forced his hand, and he made up the rules, and I just kept plan Aing and it's a fricken disaster......I couldn't do a Plan B either, but if I had, I might be typing something entirely different to you.

AND PLEASE BELIEVE THEM when they tell you RECOVERY is much harder. You are still going to have trust issues, and she's not giving an inch in that department...you are supposed to blindly trust her, when she isn't being trustworthy......I understand this better than you'll ever know.

I read your PBL, and I didn't really see a set of clearly defined things that you needed her to do, in order to prove that she was serious.

I DID have clearly defined things, but I blew them off....I took my H breaking it off with the OW, and moving me back in.....he STILL doesn't have his car out of her garage, and he STILL has contact, although I think I put the death nail in that as well by calling her and telling her the TRUTH about everything.

What I'm trying to say is, you think this is going to be an easier way around it, and I'm living proof that there IS NO WAY AROUND IT, it seems easier now, and I KNOW what you are thinking "I can't back out on what I've told her, she going to think I'm nuts" BEEN THERE.....DONE that, and now I'm in the middle of divorcing it seems.


I couldn't commit to Plan B, I couldn't commit to saving my marriage, I found it too painful. But let me tell you how painful looking back, knowing how badly I botched this and that I could be in an entirely different place right now if I had only done what I should have.

Please listen, I know how hard it is....I honestly do know, and just being back with her feels like the right thing to do.

She is perfect for MB, she still loves you, she's just confused......so was my husband. And I have changed EVERYTHING about myself that made our marriage vulnerable to begin with, and he has changed almost nothing.

Think about it.

-Caren

Fox,

Do you see a consensus forming here? Did you read MM's latest post? Read it, clearly the data is showing you what you must do. Go to school, work on yourself, open communications with your W IF she has met your plan B requirements and gather the data.

Son, you will NOT be a successful father unless you finish your education. It is not the education so much as the opportunities that BR mentioned, but it is deeper and I think BR will agree. It will be sense of disappointment at what you "could" have done, that will haunt you and affect your marriage, and thusly your children.

So people don't care to to go college, hence they don't have that sense/remorse over what "could" of been. But, you do, so it will haunt you if you don't finish it.

Next you asked:
Actually this is very easy. You let her have her privacy, but you leave for Pullman. You don't really reengage with her until you can trust her and that will take her dropping her veil of secrecy. You see what she is asking for is secrecy not privacy. She should have privacy in her marriage to you, but she should have no secrets. 2Long has a wonderful post on the difference between these to.

Frankly until YOU and your W can figure out the difference you two should not be married. So let this one lie with the statement to her that until she understands the difference between privacy and secrecy there is little chance the marriage will make it. And if she retorts "well you need to learn the difference too." You nod your head and say "I could not agree more with you, I sure do need to learn the difference...teach me."

So this issue should be met within the context of boundaries, what a marriage should have and should not have in it. It should be met with calmness, and it should be a constant in your talks with her.

Fox, it is time to get it together. She is going to cheat or she is not going to cheat. She is going to lie or she is not going to lie. She is going to "prove" to you that things are as she says or you will NOT believe her. It is that simple. If she wants you to trust her, she is going to have to be trust worthy and prove it to you. YOU have to do...NOTHING. So don't worry about the privacy issue. If she wants the marriage, she will have to prove to you that things are as she says.

By the way, have you told her you KNOW about her dates and actions? If not you should. If she asks how you know, just respond "it doesn't matter, what matters is that I know and you lied to me."

Fox, grow, gain calmness, gain strength, gain knowledge, and the things you fear most will fade.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I thought I might offer you a reason I feel so strongly about your situation. I was not married at your age but I was engaged. I was a senior in college and getting ready to go to graduate school. My fiance decided to cheat on me with other men. I found out and we became disengaged. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She was my first love and I loved her dearly. I was ready to support her, love her, raise a family with her, and enjoy live with her, but she decided she wanted something else.

I had to go through what you are dealing with now, make plans for my future, deal with the pain, focus on school, and then the military (it was the Viet Nam era). I made it through and met the woman I have been married to for 30 years now, raised a family with, and will retire with in a few years. She is not at all like my fiance, she is better. Although you could not of convinced me of that in those days. But, years and maturity proved to make a huge difference. You see I did not marry for another decade after my fiance and I broke up. What I did was spend 5 years in the military, obtain several advanced degrees, travel the world, date extensively, enjoy life to its fullness AND then married and settled down.

My fiance??? She was murdered two years after we broke up by one of the guys she was hanging around with.

My point I could not of protected her from herself if I wanted to and I tried, but the reality was the type of people she really enjoyed lived on the edge. She loved the risk of the affair,etc. and it killed her.

You may not see your W in this light. I know you want to protect her and as her husband you should, but what you cannot understand now but will later is this. YOu could and would protector from any outside threat to her, but you cannot protect her from herself, any more than I could my fiance.

We have all be suggesting that you become stronger internally, that you seek counseling to face your fears and the reason is that only YOU can do this, your W cannot. Conversely, you cannot protect her from herself. You have to let that go.

Son, I grew a lot in those 10 years, and you will to no matter what you decide. You do however control how painful this growing will be and you cannot avoid all of it. So think about what everyone is telling you. IN each of their words is coming the messages: You need to become stronger internally and YOu cannot protect her from herself.

It all boils down to these two things in my simple mind. We are all telling you these things in our own words, in our own way. You control YOUR future, you do not control your W's future. It is her decision if she will join you on your path through life and share hers with you.

Listen Fox.

Fox-

I know this is all hard to hear, I know it first hand....I would read these wise posts, and cry and cry and be so distraught, because I couldn't bring myself to break contact completely, I was still keeping my ear to the ground, so to speak.....I would post things I heard, or what my WH said to my daughter...etc. and people would point out that I shouldn't be doing that....but I couldn't stop myself.

You should re-impliment Plan B, please don't take these crumbs she's throwing you.....I'm telling you, you will starve. I've been taking any little crumb my husband would give me for months now, and I'm absolutely starving, and as I said before.....it has been a disaster, I'm divorcing.

I don't know if you ever read the "Love Must Be Tough" book, but let me just tell you something from it. It says, and I'm paraphrasing, that your unfaithful spouse NEEDS you to set boundaries, they NEED you to be strong....and to not settle, because they aren't capable of doing it.

Shannon needs you to be strong, and not to settle for these little lame things she's handing you, she's still foggy hon, she is bargaining with you. If you think about it....what has she really promised to give you?? Nothing hon....nothing at all.

You don't need to *make* her understand about the privacy/secrecy thing, she'll get it, if you plan B her....she'll figure it out. She'll have an epiphany, and it will become crystal clear to her.

-Caren

Hope you're doing better today, Fox. Check in so we know you are OK, okay?

~ Snow

Highroad ~ that I was dating my future husband and not married was not the point.

I experienced the same emotional addiction, dependency if you will. And that emotional addiction led me to making some very bad choices in my life because I was willing to sacrifice myself, and what was good for me, to keep my boyfriend in my life.

Those choices then, led to 3 children with an active alcoholic, several EAs by my husband, an 18 month PA by my husband, without a college degree, AND without a job when everything fell apart.

Imagining that sacrificing myself would lead to a healthy marriage and/or life was a delusion.

Personal recovery has to come for Aaron, or there is no chance of any marriage ~ with Shannon or anyone else...

Fox please check in.

~ Snow