LostHusband, please check out this post I’ve addressed to you yesterday on eaglesoar's thread about forgiveness. I will like to receive feedback from you.

Thanks,
Suzet

Suzet*

You and I have not always seen eye-to-eye (HA !)

But I do want to tell you something....

I appreciate the balance you bring to these discussions!

So, thank you. The link above was particularly illuminating and insightful.

Thanks for your post Pepperband, I appreciate your words very much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have a blessed day,
Suzet

Being that I was talking about this VERY subject with IC yesterday, it was very helpful.

I now realize I have a bit more to "process" as IC had suggested that perhaps my anger at STBXW was also anger at myself for ALLOWING myself to have an A AND marry a KNOWN serial cheater and expecting different results. In hindsight, I was rather "foggy" and I am still shocked that I could be so stupid...BUT...I have realized my repeated self-floggings are not healthy either, so I still have some processing to do...

She told me that forgiveness is letting go of your own wounds...

I have a bit to think about...my need for revenge has to go and I am working on it.

However, forgiving STBXW is something I don't know that I can ever do...the anger will grow less and less over time and my concurrent thoughts of her will drift to no thoughts at all.

I guess its kinda like my appendectomy...it hurt like ****** during and after the "process, but 6 years later, all that is left is a faint inobtrusive scar...

(((Suzet)))

Sorry, I didn’t see your response on the other thread. On that thread the poster was asking for help on ways to forgive and I provided some scripture that is motivating for forgiveness. Further, I provided her with a prayer that I’ve used on forgiveness. Suzet, I offered those things based upon the posters request “Forgiveness - How do you reach the point where you forgive?”. Further, you will see that I asked the poster what she required to grant forgiveness and you notice that in her answer she is giving all her power of recovery over to her husband. With all that being said I’ll try to respond to your request but 1st let me inform you that I’ve walked both sides of this issue. I walked the side where I withheld forgiveness and now walk the side where I freely give forgiveness while recognizing my personal responsibility.

“””However, people still need to go through a grieving process and processing all the emotions (of hurt, pain, anger etc.) towards those who have wronged them.”””

OK that is your opinion and I’m quite sure that many others share that view, I don’t. I did for a long time but have since found a new way that works for me. Part of that stems from putting Christ before all others including myself and part stems from my selfish desire to take control away from other people over my life. The lessons I’ve learned came at an extremely high personal cost to me and many others near and dear to me. They work for me.

“””They need to go through that process before they can finally heal & forgive...”””

Again, that’s an opinion some would say the opposite is true, that one must forgive in order to heal.

“””In an earlier post someone said there are two types of forgiveness, e.g. logically & emotionally, and that it is the emotional forgiveness which take much time. This is very true.”””

OK, I don’t really know of different types of forgiveness but can tell you that it’s my opinion that the length of time required to forgive is totally up to the person forgiving whether it be 7 minutes, 7 hours, 7 days, 7 weeks, 7 months, 7 years, or never.

”””THE TRAP OF FORGIVENESS”””

You know I wasn’t going to comment on this article, but as it’s simply one person’s view, I will make comments as to my views.

”””There are many experts in the various help professions who sincerely believe that forgiveness is not only the first step but often the only step necessary for inner peace. I disagree completely.”””

I, too, disagree in part. I do believe it is the one of the 1st steps but definitely not the only step. For me, it being at the beginning NOW, makes going through the remaining steps less painfull and lasting.

”””The more I thought about it, the more I realized that this absolution was really another form of denial: “If I forgive you, we can pretend that what happened wasn’t so terrible.”””

OK, I pretty much totally disagree with this statement. I believe it is my responsibility, as a Christian, to simply forgive. It’s not about pretending anything, I simply forgive and lay their responsibility in the matter firmly between them and the Lord. In almost any situation I can choose to forgive them, in the sense that I do not actively hold a grudge agaist them and pray for God’s mercy upon them. This does not mean that I have to accept or deny their actions or for that matter be remotely or closely associated with them.

When God forgives us, He no longer holds our sins against us. Therefore, we don't have the right to hold others' sins against them--not if we belong to Jesus. If we belonged to the world, we could indulge in bitterness, but the blood-bought child of God has no such right.

OK, from a totally Christian perspective whether we "feel" forgiveness in our hearts or not, we are under obligation to obey God. As we obey Him, He will supply the feelings. Obedience must come first, then the right feelings will follow. We can't wait for a special nudge from On High to get us to do what His Word already tells us plainly to do. The longer we wait, the worse off we will be.

”””One of the most dangerous things about forgiveness is that it undercuts your ability to let go of your pent-up emotions. How can you acknowledge your anger against someone whom you’ve already forgiven?”””

It’s my opinion that it undercuts nothing and allows one to process things with healthy emotions rather than harmful ones.

“””Several of these clients clung to their fantasies: “All I have to do is forgive and I will be healed, I will have wonderful mental health, everybody is going to love everybody, we’ll hug a lot, and we’ll finally be happy.”””

Again, I don’t agree with that and believe that there is still work to be done after forgiveness, just work done with a shifted forcus.

“””People can forgive, but they should do it at the conclusion – not at the beginning – of their emotional housecleaning.”””

OK, the poster in our discussion asked from a Christian perspective and IMHO, this statement is against that.

“””I also believe that forgiveness is appropriate only when people to do something to earn it. People need to acknowledge what happened, take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends.”””

If forgiveness where for the person being forgiven then that would be correct but as a Christian I am called to forgive PERIOD. I’m not called to forgive only if so and so does A, B, & C. Forgiveness is for me, not the person who has wronged me. And by doing so freely, I operate out of healthy/Godly emotions rather than destructive ones.

“””It’s only NORMAL for her to still feel very emotional & hurt over the betrayal.”””

You are correct. I’m offering her a different way to deal with those.

“””As MelodyLane has stated earlier, it take approximately 12-24 months for the BS to recover from betrayal IF the FWS is open and honest to the BS as much as possible…”””

Which I can totally relate to as a member of the “been there done that club”, however that doesn’t mean that they have to withhold forgiveness.

“””And currently eaglesoar’s H doesn’t do all the necessary things to help her heal & recover…”””

Again, from a purely Christian perspective, what her husband does is really of no significance in her plight to forgive. Sure it’s very significant in the recovery of her marriage, but not for her obeying the Word.

“””Are you suggesting with your post that eaglesoar must bypass her grieving process in order to forgive her H? This WILL NOT benefit her because recovery & healing won’t come UNTIL she have gone through all the grieving phases…”””

I think we are confusing what Forgiveness is with this statement. Forgiveness is not absolving him from responsibility rather it’s an act of releasing the anger/hate she has for his actions.

“””As thousands of other formerly BS’s, she just experience emotions right now which are VERY NORMAL for her on this stage of her recovery… Anger, pain, depression etc. is not necessarily evil… It’s just part of the grieving process and emotions one need to go through after a traumatic event. These emotions will get better & disappear as soon as the grieving process is over. That’s all. God doesn’t just slap his fingers and one is instantly released from all the grieving & painfull emotions. It doesn't work that way. Like I’ve said earlier, it’s a PROCESS and it takes time. However, one can pray to God and ask for his help, support & comfort during the grieving & healing process.”””

I agree with all of that, however in obeying Him and through my personal experiences, I believe that forgiveness should be given as soon as one recognizes it. Again, all of what I’m talking about is from a Christian standpoint. In all my readings of the Book, I’ve yet to come across a passage that requires us to grieve prior to forgiveness but I have come across several that instruct us to forgive freely and often.

LostHusband,

Thanks for the time you have taken to explain your point of view and send such a thorough response. It’s much appreciated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I understand your point of view better now although I don’t agree with all of it. However, I find it helpful & insightful to hear different opinions & viewpoints on specific topics and it’s specifically interesting to me how personal and individual experiences and traumas in life have an influence on once ones’ specific outlook and opinion on certain things.

I myself have also formed my own personal viewpoint & understanding about forgiveness through personal experience and not just because it’s an opinion of mine... I don’t want to go in depth about it now, but if you’re interested, I can give you links to specific posts which will give you better understanding.

You have also formed your specific viewpoint and opinion on forgiveness because of your personal experiences. The following you’ve said illustrates this clearly:

“””However, people still need to go through a grieving process and processing all the emotions (of hurt, pain, anger etc.) towards those who have wronged them.”””

OK that is your opinion and I’m quite sure that many others share that view, I don’t. I did for a long time but have since found a new way that works for me. Part of that stems from putting Christ before all others including myself and part stems from my selfish desire to take control away from other people over my life. The lessons I’ve learned came at an extremely high personal cost to me and many others near and dear to me. They work for me.

As a Christian, the lessons I have learned taught me that people first need to go through a grieving process before they can totally heal & recover from personal tramaus. This was my personal experience and it work for me in the same way as you’ve learned from your personal experience...

Maybe God have different lessons to teach each of us in life and maybe sometimes those lessons might be totally opposite & different for each of us. I don't know.

I see that differences in viewpoints and opinions also appear amongst Christians (like you & me for example) because people often interpret specific scriptures in a totally different way. Let’s take the following for example:

You said:

OK, the poster in our discussion asked from a Christian perspective and IMHO, this statement is against that.

“””I also believe that forgiveness is appropriate only when people to do something to earn it. People need to acknowledge what happened, take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends.”””

If forgiveness where for the person being forgiven then that would be correct but as a Christian I am called to forgive PERIOD. I’m not called to forgive only if so and so does A, B, & C. Forgiveness is for me, not the person who has wronged me. And by doing so freely, I operate out of healthy/Godly emotions rather than destructive ones.

Here is my view: As a Christian, I do think that people must first do something to earn forgiveness; first acknowledge what happened & first take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends… I say this because 1) according to me, God himself have set the example (will explain further below) and 2) I have experienced this personally in my life. I will use a post once posted by ForeverHers (another Christian on these boards) to explain this. His post also explains my point of view very clearly. Here it is (ForeverHers, I hope you won't mind):

[color:"blue"]There is only ONE way to be forgiven and it takes action on the part of the sinner, not the one sinned against. Forgive seventy times seven times applies to 1) fellow Christians, and 2) to Christians who are convicted of their sin, confess, repent, and seek forgiveness. ONLY then are we commanded by God to forgive as He forgives. He is the model in love and in forgiveness.

It is a terrible thing to be left in the wrathful hand of the living Lord, but I trust God to do what is right according to God's standards, not mine. But I do NOT forgive a person anymore than God forgives him/her. THAT action awaits, perhaps until the day he/she dies, his/her action that allows for forgiveness. Without it, there will be no forgiveness. To do less belittles the need for Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It's the old "blanket forgiveness" lie that Satan likes to use to confuse those who don't understand the fullness of God's attributes and only like to focus on the "nice ones." Evil IS evil, and there IS such a thing as "righteous anger." "Be angry, but in your anger do not sin."

The bottom line for me is that there can be NO forgiveness without confession and repentance. I "forgive" in the sense that I know a person is a heathen, controlled by the flesh and Satan, and is eternally lost unless someday he comes to accept Jesus Christ. In other words, he/she was acting as I might expect anyone to act who does not have Christ as Lord of their life. I release the anger and desire for vengence to God. I let what God may do supercede any "fleshly desire" I might have for vengence. If you want to term that "forgiveness" then I'm okay with that, but I don't forgive in the truest biblical sense of the word.

So the "forgiveness", if you will, is taking God at His word and turning the person’s fate over to God. God has not forgiven him/her and won't until such time as he/she receives Christ. Neither do I forgive him/her, I merely release the person from my mind with respect to seeking vengence and hatred.[/color]

LostHusband, thanks for the opportunity to discuss this with you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

(((Suzet)))

“””As a Christian, the lessons I have learned taught me that people first need to go through a grieving process before they can totally heal & recover from personal tramaus.”””

Totally, 100% agree.

I think the only thing is question here is when and how one forgives. But the blanket of doubt may also fall over what the definition of “Forgiveness” is in our human eyes and hearts. In my original post I referenced Matthew 6:14-15 and Mark 11:25-26, I put much confidence in those verses and use them as my model for forgiveness, by my definition and understanding.



“””Here is my view: As a Christian, I do think that people must first do something to earn forgiveness; first acknowledge what happened & first take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends…”””

Suzet, I would be interested to know if this view is backed by scripture. Like you, I find it interesting to explore another’s belief. I do know that many hold the same belief as what you’ve stated above. Also, I would like to know how you feel the above statement fits in with the scriptures I’ve referenced from Mark and Matthew.

IMHO this is a difficult matter that forces one to leave their pride and ego at the door. I fully understand the desire for one to seek action from the sinner before forgiving, I lived that as well. But one thing I’ve worked on over the last years is control and personal responsibility for my life. If I hold anger or frustration for another, I give that person control over me and my actions. Further, if one holds the same interpretation of Mark and Matthew, if I chose not to forgive as I stand praying then I give another person control over my destiny and I am not forgiven for my many many sins.

Since ForeverHers is not in this debate, I will only say that post you quoted worries me but that could only be due to the definition of the word Forgiveness.

LostHusband,

I think the only thing is question here is when and how one forgives.

True…and there is no specific guideline and timeline in script (even in the scriptures you have given) on exactly how and when we should forgive ... Yes, we as Christians must forgive – this is a commandment from God - but the WHEN and HOW is not the same for each person and depends on individual circumstances…

Please understand that I’m NOT talking about minor and day-to-day circumstances here (where people treat us badly; unfairly etc. in our day-to-day living). In these instances we should and must forgive each other 7 x 77 times a day(as stated by Jesus).

I’m referring to big, traumatic events in one’s life like betrayal, abuse, rape, murder etc. It’s humanly impossible to forgive within minutes, days, weeks or even months from the occurrence of such traumatic events…and surely God don’t expect anyone to “get over it” and forgive in such a short time-frame… Like I’ve said in my other posts, it’s a process and takes time. The God I know is loving and patient and sure He have an understanding for all this…

Please read this post to give you some insight in my personal experience on this.

the blanket of doubt may also fall over what the definition of “Forgiveness” is in our human eyes and hearts.

I agree with this… And probably this is why we disagree on some things – because our definition of forgiveness is not the same.

My definition of forgiveness in the scripts you have referenced from Mark and Matthew is that we must “forgive” in the sense that we must not seek vengence and hatred towards a person who have wronged us… In stead, one must give up the need for revenge and turn the person’s fate over to God (as explained in ForeverHer’s quote in my previous post).

“””Here is my view: As a Christian, I do think that people must first do something to earn forgiveness; first acknowledge what happened & first take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends…”””

Suzet, I would be interested to know if this view is backed by scripture. Like you, I find it interesting to explore another’s belief. I do know that many hold the same belief as what you’ve stated above. Also, I would like to know how you feel the above statement fits in with the scriptures I’ve referenced from Mark and Matthew.

You will understand better why I view it this way after you've read the link I've given to you above... As stated in my previous post, I don’t believe one must forgive a person anymore than God forgives him/her… God don’t forgive without confession and repentance. God is the model in love and forgiveness. I can only forgive an unrepentant person by releasing the person from my mind with respect to seeking vengence and hatred. This is how I view the scriptures in Mark and Matthew as well.

Hope this make some sense. Sometimes I find it difficult to 'articulate' myself well enough.

Blessings,
Suzet

“””True…and there is no specific guideline and timeline in script (even in the scriptures you have given) on exactly how and when we should forgive”””

I do agree that it doesn’t say how but the when seems to be outlined in Mark "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop--leave it, let it go”

“””It’s humanly impossible to forgive within minutes, days, weeks or even months from the occurrence of such traumatic events…”””

I agree that this is “HUMANLY” impossible, not altogether impossible but once again that would vary based upon one’s interpretation of what forgiveness is.

“””God don’t expect anyone to “get over it” and forgive in such a short time-frame…”””

And I agree with that. My contention would be with the requirement to “get over it” prior to granting forgiveness, as I define forgiveness.

“””I don’t believe one must forgive a person anymore than God forgives him/her…”””

OK, how do you know when God forgives someone? Each person’s personal relationship with God is exactly that, personal. I, personally, don’t see how in most cases one could know if God has forgiven someone.

“””God don’t forgive without confession and repentance.”””

True, but that confession and further more the repentance is personal between God and the sinner. Their confession is likely private and who really knows what their repentance consists of cause once again, it’s personal.

“””I can only forgive an unrepentant person by releasing the person from my mind with respect to seeking vengeance and hatred.”””

So how does that vary from how you can “forgive” a person whom you’ve judged to have repented of their sin?

((Suzet)) Please do not think I’m calling your views wrong in any shape or form and thank you for taking the time to elaborate on them. Yes, they are different from mine and that’s great. As a matter of fact, many people close to me share your view and I've never really explored it, so truly I am enjoying the dialog. That we are gathered in His name, maybe we both can take a better understanding from this conversation.

"And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop--leave it, let it go”

LostHusband, the way I interpret this specific verse in script is that one must forgive the one you have something against in your prayers by releasing the person from your mind with respect to seeking vengence and hatred (let's call this mental/intellectual forgiveness). I’ve already explained this in my previous post. However, IMO, one can only forgive in the truest biblical sense of the word after all emotions related to the traumatic experience and all the phases in the grieving process have been fully work through and processed (let's call this emotional forgiveness).

For example, if a woman has been abused by her H for years (physically, mentally and/or emotionally), she can immediately forgive her H by releasing him from her mind with respect to seeking vengence and hatred (mental forgiveness), but the hurting feelings towards her H will still be there and won’t go away overnight (emotional forgiveness). Only after she have worked through all these painful feelings and fully processed it, she will be able to fully forgive her H on emotional level. The mental forgiveness can happen immediately, but it’s the emotional forgiveness which takes time and will differ from person to person.

As I’ve said in a previous post, if one pray and you forgive someone intellectually, God doesn’t just slap his fingers and one is instantly released from all the grieving & painful emotions. I’ve tried that for years in it didn’t happen… Therefore I’ve learned that it takes time for feelings to heal and that true emotional healing & forgiveness can only come after ALL the phases of the grieving process has been worked though and processed. IMO the article I’ve posted to you on “The trap of Forgiveness” applies to emotional forgiveness.

“””It’s humanly impossible to forgive within minutes, days, weeks or even months from the occurrence of such traumatic events…”””

I agree that this is “HUMANLY” impossible, not altogether impossible but once again that would vary based upon one’s interpretation of what forgiveness is.

IMO, it IS possible to forgive immediately on mental/intellectual level, but NOT on emotional level after a traumatic event (as I’ve already explained earlier).

“””God don’t expect anyone to “get over it” and forgive in such a short time-frame…”””

And I agree with that. My contention would be with the requirement to “get over it” prior to granting forgiveness, as I define forgiveness.

Mental/intellectual forgiveness can be granted before one “gets over it”, NOT emotional forgiveness (IMO).

“””I don’t believe one must forgive a person anymore than God forgives him/her…”””

OK, how do you know when God forgives someone? Each person’s personal relationship with God is exactly that, personal. I, personally, don’t see how in most cases one could know if God has forgiven someone.

“””God don’t forgive without confession and repentance.”””

True, but that confession and further more the repentance is personal between God and the sinner. Their confession is likely private and who really knows what their repentance consists of cause once again, it’s personal.

I believe if someone is truly remorseful and repentant over what he/she has done wrong towards another person and has caused someone else enormous pain & damage because of his/her actions (like betrayal, abuse, rape etc.), such a person will not only surrender him/herself and seek forgiveness from God, but he/she will also seek forgiveness (or at least offer an sincere apology) towards the person he/she has wronged…

I believe if a person doesn’t have the sincereness and decency to seek forgiveness or at least offer an apology to the person he/she has wronged and caused so much pain, I can safely assume that the person isn’t truly remorseful and repentant at all and hasn’t surrender him/herself and seek God’s forgiveness as well. I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong on this one, but that’s just how I feel…

I feel this way because I know that if I have caused severe trauma and damage to someone else, my soul won’t rest in peace until I have repent and seek forgiveness from both God and that person.

“””I can only forgive an unrepentant person by releasing the person from my mind with respect to seeking vengeance and hatred.”””

So how does that vary from how you can “forgive” a person whom you’ve judged to have repented of their sin?

It vary in the sense that I can start to forgive a person emotionally after he have repented. For example, although I have forgiven my father and uncle mentally/intellectually years ago, I could only totally forgive them emotionally after they have offered me a sincere apology and repented. At that stage I already worked through all the grieving stages through IC, so I was able to immediately forgive them on emotional level after their apology. However, a person who start to heal from a recent traumatic event, first need to work through all the emotional feelings & grief related to the trauma before he/she will reach the stage of total emotional forgiveness. Again, this is just my opinion.

((Suzet)) Please do not think I’m calling your views wrong in any shape or form and thank you for taking the time to elaborate on them. Yes, they are different from mine and that’s great. As a matter of fact, many people close to me share your view and I've never really explored it, so truly I am enjoying the dialog.

LostHusband, I know you don’t call my views wrong and I understand this is just a discussion and exploration of different viewpoints. Thanks to you also for taking the take to elaborate on your specific views. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That we are gathered in His name, maybe we both can take a better understanding from this conversation.

I agree… This is a nice way of putting it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Have a blessed day,
Suzet

Suzet, this is something I struggle with all the time. I am the WS and the BS. I have shown remorse to my FWH many times and I will continue to do so. But, the only time I saw sincere, genuine remorse from him (for his A) was on his D-days. He says he does not feel close to me and that is why he has a hard time showing it to me. (He says he does feel it though.) So, if we never recover our M and we are never close again, I would never deserve an apology? That does not sit right with me. Either you are sorry for what you did or you are not. I have a hard time understanding how feeling close to someone is what allows you to express sincere remorse. I do not feel close to him most of the time, yet I apologize when it is warranted because I am owning my own actions. His closeness to me has nothing to do with that. People express remorse to total strangers and we do not feel close to them!

So, then I wonder if he really is sorry, or feels his A was justified or that I deserved it. I don't know. But, I have the same feeling as you do-- if he does not show remorse, I have a really hard time believing that he is truly sorry. And, if he is not truly sorry, then what is there to prevent him from doing it again?

(((Improving))

Dear Improving, I can’t relate to your specific circumstances, but I can just imagine how difficult and painful this situation with your H must be for you…

Prayers to you…
Suzet

((Suzet))

As I sat here reading this morning, my 1st reaction to your latest post was to politely bow out of the conversation. Then I processed a little more and I thought maybe I’ll try to expand a little more on my views thinking that we are standing at a fundamental crossroads. Then I opened my eyes a little wider and realized that when I look for similarities rather than differences I can see that our views are strikingly similar but part ways on the definition of “Biblical or Godly” forgiveness.

It’s my understanding and belief that Jesus spoke more of forgiveness than possibly any other topic. With such emphasis on one specific area I believe that it’s a lesson we must learn on deeper levels. The old saying goes “God is Love”, well “God must also be Forgiveness” otherwise none of us would be worthy of being here. As Christians we believe there is no life apart from God's love. Therefore, there is no life apart from forgiveness, for forgiveness is the seal, the mark, and the proof of Love. If we say we have love and cannot walk in forgiveness, we deceive ourselves, and our "love" is only a parody of the real thing.

Now let me make a couple of comments on what you’ve shared with me:

“””I interpret this specific verse in script is that one must forgive the one you have something against in your prayers by releasing the person from your mind with respect to seeking vengeance and hatred (let's call this mental/intellectual forgiveness).”””

OK, if when you stand praying you release ANY thread of vengeance and ALL hatred then IMVHO, that is Biblical or Godly forgiveness. Furthermore, the next night as you pray, you may have to do it all again and I still firmly believe that that act is moving in a Godly direction. The only thing that I would add is that as you pray you pray for His mercy upon them and to work His will in their lives.

“””However, IMO, one can only forgive in the truest biblical sense of the word after all emotions related to the traumatic experience and all the phases in the grieving process have been fully work through and processed (let's call this emotional forgiveness).”””

While I believe that I understand your point here this seems to be where we part ways on our spiritual crossroads. In His teachings, I haven’t found different “levels” of forgiveness, that is not to say that they don’t exist. As I mentioned earlier, I believe that your model of mental forgiveness is on the cusp of what I believe is forgiveness.

”””Only after she have worked through all these painful feelings and fully processed it, she will be able to fully forgive her H on emotional level.”””

In your model here, provided that the abused spouse is able to release the hatred and prayed for her spouse, then she has forgiven IMVHO. That is not to say that she’s healed or should trust him. As she goes through the healing/grieving process she may have to forgive him 100 more times. To me, by doing so she also is placing her power, strength, and trust in God rather than being ruled by the pain and anger inflicted by another. But yes, she still will have to grieve and heal.

“””IMO the article I’ve posted to you on “The trap of Forgiveness” applies to emotional forgiveness.”””

I will say, there were several things in that article that I felt were against the Word, as I interpret it. But once again, that is based on how one views the definitions or Godly/Biblical forgiveness vs forgiveness as defined by the mental health workers.

”””Mental/intellectual forgiveness can be granted before one “gets over it”, NOT emotional forgiveness (IMO).”””

Searching for similarities in our views, let me modify your words to what I see ”Forgiveness can be granted before one “gets over it”, NOT healing (IMO).”””

”””I feel this way because I know that if I have caused severe trauma and damage to someone else, my soul won’t rest in peace until I have repent and seek forgiveness from both God and that person.”””

The one caution I throw to the wind is that not all who hurt you are Christians or have the ability to feel the same guilt or shame that you feel when you do wrong to another.

”””I could only totally forgive them emotionally after they have offered me a sincere apology and repented.”””

If that where a situation in my life, I would say that I was able to finish healing and totally complete the grieving process after I received those things from them. I stage in life that I could come to without anything from them, though it may have taken me longer to get there. What if my abuser died, would I never be able to forgive them? Again, by my definition, yes I would forgive but I would still need to grieve and heal.

LostHusband, thanks for the continuous conversation and the time you have taken to elaborate on this topic. I'm glad you have decided to not bow out of the conversation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your latest post was needed because it has made some things clear for me.

After I've read your latest response, I've realized that you are correct and that our views are not so different after all... It seems that we have just misunderstood each other's 'definition' on forgivneness and suprisingly, I've also realized that our definition on this is not really different... I've read this whole thread again and I've discovered that actually, we've said the same thing all the time, but with a misunderstanding on each others 'definition' on forgiveness. Let me explain:

From your latest post, it's seems we are both of the opinion that forgiveness (as we understand it in scripture) can be defined as "releasing the person from your mind with respect to seeking vengeance and hatred". I also agree that one must pray for the person and ask for His mercy upon him/her and to work His will in his/her life... I've actually recommended this same thing to people on these boards who have carried or still carry a lot of anger, hate and bitterenss towards the OP.

Secondly, it seems that 'emotional forgivneness' in my view, IS actually 'healing' or 'recovery' (as understood by you). Also, I can see now that I have actually used the wrong choice of wording - I should have said 'emotional healing or recovery' in stead of 'emtional forgivneness'. My definition on emotional forgivneness IS equavalent to healing/recovery. Therefore, 'emotional forgiveness' and 'healing/recovery' is exactly the same thing (it's just my choice of wording which was different) - I'm sorry if this was confusing!

So in princicpal, it seems we both agree that 'emotional healing/recovery' still need to follow after forgivness (as described in the above model about 'mental' forgiveness) has been granted and that forgivneness DOESN'T mean that a person don't still need to go through a healing/grieving process after a traumatic experience where he/she was wounded by another person... You summed it up perfectly when you said the following (in bold):


I agree 100% with the above.

I can see now where I have misunderstood you: You see, initially when I first posted to you, I was of the understanding and opinion that you thought that if a person has forgive another, that he/she is supposed to be healed and recovered emotionally from all the grieving & painfull feelings related to the traumatic experience as well... A big misconception/misunderstanding on my part - sorry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I agree with your defintion... The mental forgiveness was possible, but I don't know how it would affect my emotional healing/recovery should I never had the chance to reconcile with the abusers and should they be dead before I could do this... All I can say is that I'm very glad and thankfull to God than I was given the opportunity to do this and received amends from them... And it might sound strange coming from me, but I know this step was also necessary for their emotional and spiritual well-being as well... Maybe God knows beforehand that this step was needed for my total emotional healing/recovery, but for their emotional well-being as well... God knows what is best for each of us.

God's bless,
Suzet

(((Suzet)))

Well, I must say that this has been interesting for me as well. I’ve been having this conversation with others in my life as well, who I must say express something similar to what you said at the beginning of this conversation.

“””After I've read your latest response, I've realized that you are correct and that our views are not so different after all...”””

I think it’s pretty much human nature to automatically look at the differences. Some experiences in my life have forced me to look at life differently. Though I must admit, my natural reaction is to look at differences, I’ve been working to override that and instead look at the similarities. I’ve done this for other aspects of my life, but in reality I feel that it fits into Christian teachings quite well. Plus, I must say, that this has opened my life up tremendously to people, places, and things that I never would have been open to in years gone by.

“””Also, I can see now that I have actually used the wrong choice of wording - I should have said 'emotional healing or recovery' in stead of 'emtional forgivneness'.”””

The definitely was a hang up for me in this conversation. I saw how close the core beliefs where, yet they seemed to be hinging on the presentation.

“””So in principal, it seems we both agree that 'emotional healing/recovery' still need to follow after forgiveness (as described in the above model about 'mental' forgiveness) has been granted and that forgiveness DOESN'T mean that a person don't still need to go through a healing/grieving process after a traumatic experience where he/she was wounded by another person...”””

EXACTLY…..

“””You see, initially when I first posted to you, I was of the understanding and opinion that you thought that if a person has forgive another, that he/she is supposed to be healed and recovered emotionally from all the grieving & painful feelings related to the traumatic experience as well... A big misconception/misunderstanding on my part - sorry!”””

You know, I feel that is a very common understanding or shall we misunderstanding of the concept of forgiveness. To me and from how I view the scripture, a lot of this boils down to where one lays their power and strength. For example, if my wife had an affair and left me for another man I’m going to be angry, hurt, devastated, blah, blah, blah, and a whole bunch more emotions. When I choose not to forgive then I operate out of those emotions which in sense where given to me by my wife, thus I’ve given her control over me and taken control away from myself and my Savior. If I choose to forgive her then I start operating with reliance on my Savior and myself from an entirely different perspective. That does not minimize the pain or grief of the act, but it does give me the opportunity to grieve with my power resting in proper places.

That all being said, I didn’t have this view on things when my marriage was unraveling and IMVHO it hurt me and my recovery. Rather than face things, I emotionally shut down. I ran from the world and hid. That definitely hindered my healing. But in another sense it was beneficial, in that it caused me to draw nearer to God and seek a better understanding. Yes, it was a slow process but one I think Him for.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

LostHusband,

Thanks for the discussion. I’m sure there are still issues we disagree about, but at least we could reach an agreement on the core issues and could clear out some misunderstandings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LostHusband, there are 2 specific verses from the Bible I want to share with you to give you a better understanding on my view about the importance to seek forgiveness from another person (one have sinned against):

Matthew 5: 23 – 24: “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.”

The above verses is the reason I think it is equally important for a person to repent, reconcile, making amends and seek forgiveness from the person he/she has wronged as it is for the other person who was wronged against, to forgive.

To return to the topic which originally started this thread, I think we can both agree now that eaglesoar’s issues was not really about forgiveness, but about her personal healing/recovery after the betrayal of her H and the process she needs to go through to fully process all her feelings. I think eaglesoar has forgive her H a long time ago (she is a Christian who definitely don’t seek hatred and vengenca towards him), but she still needs to heal emotionally and this will take time & patience. Therefore it will be normal for her to still experience feelings of anger, hurt & pain from time to time, and (as you’ve said in another post) maybe she will need to forgive him a 100 times more as she is going through this process.

Also, it’s clear from her posts that her H is definitely minimizing his past EA and expect her to “get over it” soon. Therefore it appears that he and the MC don’t want to give her enough time to fully process all the feelings related to the trauma and that they want her to rush the grieving and healing process – and as a result, her H will actually impede her healing process with his current attitude. What she is actually needing right now, is full patience, understanding & support from the people who are suppose to help her get through this...but it seems they want her to bypass and repress her grieving emotions and this can't be healthy at all.


I think possibly eaglesoar, her H and the MC have this common misunderstanding about forgiveness as well… They possibly thinking that because she still have the hurtful and grieving feelings related to the trauma of betrayal, that it means that she has not really forgiven her H... But of course this isn’t true! But because they have this misconception, eaglesoar feels unnecessary guilty about her normal grieving/healing emotions… And her H’s & MC’s behavior and expectancies to “get over it now” adds to these feelings of guilt.

It seems eaglesoar, her H and the MC need to first fully understand the concept on forgiveness AND healing/recovery e.g. that “emotional healing/recovery' still need to follow [i]after forgiveness has been granted and that forgiveness DOESN'T mean that a person don't still need to go through a healing/grieving process after a traumatic experience where he/she was wounded by another person."[/i]

God Bless,
Suzet

Hey (Suzet), I thoroughly enjoyed it and enjoyed the opportunity to do a little self discovery. Ohhhhhh that and I want to hit 3,000 posts tonight..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You are on 3,000 posts exactly right now. Congratulations! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />