LET’S JUST START BY SAYING I WISH THAT I HAD WOKEN UP YEARS AGO AND ME AND THE WIFE AND KIDS WOULD NEVER BE HERE. I REALLY THINK THIS PLACE SUCKS AND WISH THAT NONE OF US HAD TO BE HERE. BUT I'M GLAD THERE WAS SOMEPLACE TO GO.

I HAD AN EPHINONY WHEN SHE SAID SHE WANTED A DIVORCE.
IT DIDN’T TAKE MONTHS OR YEARS. IT ALL CAME TO ME IN A FLASH. SO HERE I AM.

So, here’s my update:

We went to counseling and the times were messed up. We had 7pm they had 8pm. By the time we figured it out we were already getting something to eat.

We talked about us “like I’m not supposed to “ and she explained that if I could see beyond the A and look at the REAL issues I could see. Near the end of the conversation there was porn vs. sexual affair conversation ...why I did it etc...wife said I didn’t see the pain and damage caused… and I said I did... and around that went and I finally said "you’ve never seen a message board dedicated to people frantically logging on and saying “OMG I just found out my husband viewed porn and my heart is ripped out and I want to die" ”Like there is for affairs”. Dinner was over by then. She left the table and went outside.

We drove to a park. We talked. I asked what I need to do and what does she need to see to salvage this marriage.

The Bottom line is I have to "not talk of anything besides the issues that were present in marriage pre-A"" and see that, those are the real issues and know that she doesn’t love me in a committed way because she disconnected before/A -and that is why the A was possible in the 1st place. The A is not the real issue. Everything pre-A is the issue if we want to rebuild. So “show me it's different instead of talking about"

And our only hope she says is for me to be selfless and giving and to respect her from this point on - to let her see if she can ever commit to our marriage again I need to:

1) Be selfless
2) Be a man and make things happen - no passive/aggressive behavior i.e. make the decisions where we spend time/what church go to etc. -but, of course go to her w/ bigger decisions.
3) show respect and love to her and kids unconditionally.

So there is my lot. I love unconditionally and maybe she will see and accept. What do I have to lose by not doing it this way? My Family and everything I now hold dear.

What do I have to gain? Family and everything I hold dear and the opportunity to make myself a better person in the end.

I always did pray when she was gone that I would have this chance. NOW ITS HERE.

Why had I been resisting? Why did I want her to commit? ----When she can’t.

Because, I was still in denial and pain from the whole thing? I really do want to do these things for her and myself and kids -but resisted.

She has and can meet many of my emotional needs in our current position. But, not the ability to be loved by her or for her to tell me she is willing to work 100% at marriage. Only by me meeting her needs could I make that possible.

She does say that 1) “doesn’t my being here show anything? 2) Don’t I sleep in the same bed? 3) I didn’t file for divorce yet. Yes – but I also felt that she had to come back because of children and not being able to divorce from California. Regardless of the reason they are back ….and I have an opportunity to make something good happen.

Everything would be so much easier had she came clean and said she wanted to work on things. But, now it’s up to me to walk the walk or not. Because as she says in her post:

---- I have no reason to trust my husband on an emotional level I've heard all the promises before...I’ve witnessed them being broken, i honestly don't know if i have it in me to love him again and I have my children to think about. The best recourse is not always keeping the family intact at all cost for the kid’s sake...because the kids have been greatly affected in a bad way because of our relationship. Now knowing the background facts and what led up to all this...can we have a little more insightful advice on what to do for our marriage beyond the affair?


She needs to see things from me. And then maybe. No guarantees. Those are her words.

I really do want to give her these things. And I was being selfish for not just doing it and expecting things from her that she can’t give me.

But, I still control by asking her to commit and there probably are a few feelings I do that remind her about my behavior in the last 4 week since she’s been back but the main being control and being passive aggressive about our life and what we do.


The post from suzet* really hits home and I would welcome it:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...ue#Post1275237# 7

-----Remind yourself constantly that love is something you DO, not something you feel. Love is meeting someone's needs. Love is action. Feelings come and go...especially fantasy-based and fog-based feelings.

SO I GIVE IT SPACE AND TIME AND I TAKE ACTION AND TURN THIS BOAT AROUND. THOSE ARE MY INTENTIONS. THIS FAMILY WILL PROSPER AND I WILL GROW. I BELEIVE THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND OF A MEDIOCURE MARRIAGE FROM THIS POINT ON.

You know it sucks to say it but I see so much here on MB that the marriage is restored stronger/better than before or there is Divorce. Reality.

Are my thoughts typical? Or a-typical? Am I blind or diluted? Lord knows I’ve been desperate to save all of this.

I understand what you're saying, but I want to counter with this question...

"Why does she get to set all of the criteria for re-building your marriage?"

It's a MARRIAGE...by definition requiring two people. And so both parties should have requirements needing to be met in re-building a marriage, regardless of what the 'crisis' is.

Personally, you BOTH should be having equal say here...if either of you have a monopoly on 'what has to happen to fix the marriage', then the other person is going to be the one doing all the changing, and NEITHER of you will be happy!

I've struggled with something similar in my own recovery. I've done everything to change and re-build our marriage, and I am feeling like I've had to do all the work...and it was my wife who had the affair. I am pushing back now to ensure that MY needs are met too...and it's still an ongoing debate.

Both of you should read this thread and give it some thought.

owl
i too am making all of the changes but so far...he's still not interested in reconciliation.
so I'll keep using plan A and hoping.

but you are right, at some point-it has to become a partnership again or things will be no better-maybe different-but no better-than before
eav1967

The real question here is not that there are/were problems in the marriage. Most marriages, even good ones, have problems and difficulties of some sort.

The real question is why mich_dad's wife decided that the way to solve her marriage problems was to go out and have sex with another man.

If mich_dad is not allowed to discuss this and get an answer, what's to stop her from doing the same thing again?
Mulan

mich dad -imho you are both going at it a bit backwards, for Christians.

The "one" you make the promises to, the commitments to, etc., is GOD first. IF you are both attempting to be obedient to God's commands, the rest will happen as a direct result of that focus. AND, God will be faithful to HIS promise and as the "third partner" in your marriage.

There is a "triangle" that shows that graphically...as you each grow closer to God with your individual walks, you WILL also grow closer to each other (shorten the distance between you).

.........God
........../\
........./--\
......../----\
Wife/____\Husband


God bless.

Mich_dad, the link you have posted above doesn’t work. Please check the link again and make sure it is correct. I would like to know which of my posts was helpful to you – I’m just curious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know - you really know how to slice and dice her - and you got tons of support about it on your other post about which is worse.

Well I have news for you pal. I have seen such a board. I have seen discussion boards where the woman's heart has been ripped out repeatedly for years and years while her husband neglects his intimate relationship with his wife so he can go get off on the "real" thrills of internet porn.

Ah - on this board, this is like talking to walls and expecting them to understand.

Just a word - keep putting your wife's pain in it's place - some place, any place lower than the wrong of her affair. Minimize it. Deny it. Gather all the support for the "painless wrong" you have done her, while playing up the enormous pain - undeniable on any account - that her affair caused you. See if it gets you reconciled!

If you really want to take your marriage to "over" - this is the path you should choose.

If you want your marriage. If you love your wife. NEVER EVER put her pain down again. Never minimize it. Do not love bust with selfish sex again.

KaylaAndy

Im not trying to put my wifes pain anyplace.I want her to understand. One one hand I want to let her know that this isn't a huge problem - but, now I know that it was and why it was. I have seen it from her and others views... and I own up to it and my wrongs. Porn is not healthy in the context of me viewing it (in secret and against her wishes). Porn and lust have no place in secret and in healthy couples - lust and desire should be directed towards your mate.

That quoted converstaion came about when she said the affair was not the issue we should work on...= and it really wasnt from her point of view. All of the marriage up to that point is what allowed her to do that.

I don't want to down play any of her feelings about the way our marriage was. As a matter of fact I encourage her to feel them and work thru them.

This has all come up because of the biblical "already commited adultry" in Matthew. That she used soon after discovery. At that point I thought she was justifying and equalizing the affair. Which I assumed all wayward spouses do.

At this point I want to own up to ALL of my wrongs. No matter how big or small. I want to be a better person and husband and father and friend and child of God. This has opened my eyes to life.

I know there are probably multiple web sites about porn addiction and pornoghraphy troubles. That does not surprise me at all.

There is no porn issue now. I will not be viewing and have no desire to. I would be accountable to the whole world if it would help. I would tell everyone not to if I could. It has no place in a healthy relationship. If you and your spouse use it to spice up things -that is your choice. I viewed it alone most times.

I am willing to answer any and all questions. No secrets here.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2773430

Suzet* this one.

I really dont want to point fingers or cast blame or shrug off blame. I just want to fix the ills and recover the marriage. And in that light action needs to be taken...some issues can't be discussed now.

I dont care if its ALL me or both of us. She says she can't make the changes that will give us that chance. ONLY I CAN. I'm here. I want it. SO-I'll work on it. I want a healthy lasting and love filled life with my wife and children.

So as my origonal post says. I will be TURNING THIS BOAT AROUND. If she stays on board...we'll get to port with Gods help.

I'm done with the love busting converstations w/ wife. It has done nothing but push her further away. My lesson learned and all of those in plan A should take heed too. I can testify to the validaty of NO affair converstations. She'll talk when shes ready. Nothing useful will happen on that front until then. I've got other issues to deal with.

Last 24 hrs NO relationship talk-just life and action.

Her strategy is focused on what you have to do in order for her to be happy.

She doesn't get it. Taking the A off the table absolves her of responsibility for your suffering. Her desire to do it indicates that she is unwilling to hear you and your pain.

Nobody said you were blameless. But she wants to turn back the clock and pretend her A never happened. It did! She did it. It was her choice. It hurt you. She needs to help you heal from that injury. She's your wife! Sheesh.

GC

1)I HAD AN EPHINONY WHEN SHE SAID SHE WANTED A DIVORCE.
IT DIDN’T TAKE MONTHS OR YEARS. IT ALL CAME TO ME IN A FLASH. SO HERE I AM.


I'm really glad you had an epiphony when i walked out..now you are able to work on yourself. Which is most essential to having a healthy relationship under any circumstances. I have alot of issues to work on myself...please remember it took me months and years to reach the point of where I am at today. It did not come to me in a flash...My LB was empty for to long and I had nothing else to give. Now here I am.

MDW, my post was meant with all due respect. I wrote it knowing you'd likely read it.

GC

I am not the only one setting boundries for this relationship. Just like a BS i have to have bounderies and I have deal breakers. Remember this relationship was in the dumps before the A. There is alot of issues prior to the A that ruined our marriage.

Mulan... I did not solve my problem's by having an affair. We were seperated when the PA began. Does this make it right or rationalize...I've said it before the answer is NO! I take full blame for making that choice. I do not blame my H for my decisions.
I have never said that H cannot talk abot the A...but not to push my feelings aside and the A be the only issue. To not talk about it every day and after being intimate. I don't undermine his feelings in any way about the A.And i certainly understand his feelings.

Kayla... This is so true...I know as well that I have to be careful not to only be a taker. Me and the kids have been through alot of pain before the A...I don't make less of the A because of that but i would like that to be recognized as some real issues with me and H. I think there are some here that tend to focus on only the A when giving advice.

MDW, the easy way to reason that is to say there are mostly BS here. But also... nothing else can be addressed until the A is addressed. It's like a big wall between you and MD that you have to demolish before recovery can happen.

Everybody's responsible for the pre-A climate, no doubt.

I've been around MB for a while now, and the people who make it seem to have a few things in common. For one, the WS are contrite and humble (see FinallyLearning-T2M). Second, both partners acknowledge their role in the pre-A climate.

I do believe "I had an affair but it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't screwed everything up so royally before" is not going to get you anywhere. Not saying that out of solidarity with MD, but because I'm quite sure that approach won't work for you.

GC

MDW-

I can completely agree that the A should NOT be the only thing discussed, and that discussing it is VERY stressful for both parties, but especially the WS/FWS.

Might I suggest that you both do something that our MC suggested for us and it helped alot? We scheduled time to discuss the affair/relationship issues. In our case, we went for a half hour every night. And once that half hour was up, it was done as a subject...if we weren't finished discussing a point, we made a note and started with that subject the next time.

Eventually, this progressed into us simply doing this after we'd done some 'homework'...reading a chapter a nite in a very good book called "20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage". We also did our conversations while we were walking the dog late at nite. But we DID limit the times, so that both of us had a chance to deal with things.

One thing I DO hope that both of you can recognize...each other's views on the affair itself. In your case, I'm reasonably sure that you're not proud of it, that it's something that you regret, and you'd really like to learn from it and get past it. In HIS case, it's going to be the main focus of his attention for weeks, or months. Every single day it will be on his mind...I don't know of anything he can do to avoid that. Recognize this, and anticipate that he's going to have a rough time for quite a while because of that.

You view the issues that lead to the affair as the BIGGEST problem...he views the AFFAIR as the biggest problem. (At least this is how it worked in my case)...so both of you have to compromise to work on BOTH issues so that BOTH of you can heal.

Try scheduling specific times to work on your marriage and your issues...and work on dropping those issues and simply spending some quality time together otherwise. Hope that helps you as much as it did my wife and I.

gray:

This is simply not true. I also have to focus on what I have to do in order to make me happy. ultimately no body else can make another person happy untill you are happy with yourself.
I have NOT taken the A off the table at all. I'll never be absolved of my choice. If I could turn back the clock it NEVER would have happened never mind pretending.

MDW,

I may be overstepping here, but oh well. I am the FWS...albeit my H didn't have a porn problem, but he did have anger issues, and was very neglectful. Early on in my recovery I did alot of what you are doing, well if he hadn't have treated me this way I wouldn't have ended up where I did and he needs to change.

Well mich - honestly - this is a contribution, but he isn't the one that needs to change as much. Sure - he has to recognize his contributions and make those changes so that he never contributes to the decay of the marriage like that again, but my darling - YOU had an affair.

Right now you can't see it, it takes months of self analysis, but ask ANY WS on here if now, much later, we blame it soley on the neglect, needs, etc in the marriage. I don't think there is a single one of us. WHY? Cause ultimately WE crossed the line.

I know you want to have your boundaries, and work on the problems in the marriage...but you just swung a BLOW to your husband...and well, like ALL of us WS's have discovered, he needs to HEAL before he can really work on the marriage. And you will have to respect it and be patient if the marriage is something you really want.

I hear SO much justification and entitlement in your voice. Your H had some big problems, I wont deny that, and those need to change - but you went OUTSIDE Your marriage.

You need to look DEEP inside you and figure out why you crossed that line...I mean there are ALWAYS other options, but what allowed you to lower your morals and take this risk...NO it wasn't because of MD...he was just a contributing factor. Trust me - it's something within YOU that needs to change along with this.

It's a long road, and your gonna have to be patient. If you hadn't of had an affair, then probably you could be just working in MD's problems...but you threw an affair into the mix, and my dear, your problems are just gonna have to wait - I know you heart was ripped out by the porn, and it was devestating...but his pain is also very fresh.

He may have betrayed you with the Porn, and as a christian, I know what a sin it is...but neither sin is worse or better, both very painful...but ultimately, you risked his health.

Just don't focus too much on what MD did to you, and start looking at the reality of what you did to yourself too. And what YOU need to do to change...as I see two people who BOTH need to change alot - two people who are capable of hurting eachother dearly...and I don't see you taking responsibility for you affair, I see you saying that if HE hadnt of done this, then you wouldn't have done that...That's not responsibility, that's blame.