Have been living in Hungary for 5.5 years. Found out about the A 3 weeks ago, left for the US 4 days after finding out and now I've returned yesterday.

H said what he really wanted was to continue A while I wait. Admitting it was wrong, unfair, etc..but that's what he wanted. We have to move out of our apartment next week as the owner has sold it. Given his current state of mind, and having to move, I told him I would be shipping my things back to the US. I would file for separation and after 6 months file for divorce. Said all this with a straight face. While discussing this also found out a few other ugly things from the past (unprotected sex with her, went looking for sex back in 1999 while he was here and I was still in the US, getting lap dances at clubs). Yuck.

After telling him my plans I got up and walked away. The OW works for him indirectly and that's the sticking point.
So after a few minutes he comes to me and says "i can't get rid of her" as in firing. I said well she'll have to find another job. So now he decides he will break it off with her and work on us. We had a really good conversation and made headway. He knows I am MORE than willing to work really hard. However I kept talking like I would be shipping home. He mentioned that and I said until you show me action, for my own self preservation I have to think this way. He seemed to understand that.

Then I read to him from Surviving an Affair about how to end an A. He doesn't want to do the letter. Insisting today that he wants to sit down and talk to OW. Right after I found out I made him meet OW (with me in the car) and break it off...in retrospect that wasn't smart of me...he told me yesterday he didn't end it during that conversation (obviously).

Has continued to see OW while I was in the US licking my wounds. However tells me he knows our 17 years have been special and what he has with OW isn't so special. H knows I have come to realizations while home, and am more than ready to change and meet his EN, etc. At the same time H knows I am ok with going home and starting a new life alone too.

My question is this...do I insist on him doing the letter?
Do I work out some other way (I told him I would go with him to meet her, they have to speak in English, I promised I wouldn't punch her, etc). He doesn't believe the letter is the best way...although I am very impressed with the Harley's methods. I told him that maybe he wasn't in the best position to know what the best method is.

All our discussions are pretty sane and really avoid LB.

I also don't know whether to stick around and keep working on Plan A while he decides, or go home. I had planned to find us a new place to move right into, but that went out the window. Now we either have to live together in a temporary apt. or he goes there alone, I stay at a friends' and then ship home. Bottom line, I love him and I love me.
I don't want to lose either of us!!

A couple hours after posting this he tells me via Instant messenger that he doesn't trust himself to end it completely with her...therefore won't end it. Hopes it "dies a natural death...soon".

I don't know what to do now. Move to Plan B and go home?

My husband is in the same situation. I have moved away from home and to my mothers. Following Plan B, it has made his heart grow fonder. In your situation, he is used to your being gone. I would suggest moving home with him. He obviously wants his marriage to work, but is having a hard time seperating from her. If you were home showing him you can give him all of his EN's, then maybe his split with her won't be as hard. In anyones situation I would suggest following the letter. My husband tells me that he would have to do it in person, but if that were to happen, he would not be able to do it with her looking into his eyes. I am trying to convince mine that a letter would be the only way to do it. Just don't give up. There is still hope.

I told H to not to stay here tonight (we've been sleeping in different rooms) but I did need to talk to him. He came home, sitting, playing with his wedding ring (which he never does). I said "are you done with that?" he said no and put it back on. I said you have made your choice, really have, to be with her. So go and do it fully now.
You say that's the only way for you, so give it your full attention....I said it with total compassion, no malice at all. He said he didn't want to lose me and was crying.

He knows if I leave he's taking an enormous risk I won't come back, and that I may find someone new while he's letting this A run its course. He doesn't want that either.

He is so confused it's unbelievable. Tells me later via text message that "the sad unfortunate reality...why is it not hitting me that I could lose the only woman that I love and that's what I don't get".

I'm at a loss right now what to do. I told him we could call the Harleys and that seemed to perk him up. He talked to OW and she advised if it ends between them she won't quit the job. He's the managing director and can't/won't quit overnight. He tells me he feels trapped. Why do humans create such a mess for themselves? Will never completely understand.

Maybe me moving back to the US will give him the "hit" he needs to realize. I don't know.....

I’m sorry to hear about your situation and I hope you have some support as you go through this. I am an ex WH so I know exactly what he's going through, because its exactly what I went through. Sadly you may have to go through quite a bit more turmoil in the marriage and in your living arrangements before anything is resolved. Let me explain a little of what’s really going on for him.

Your husband is addicted. He doesn’t know that yet and he is desperately trying to hang on to the OW and what she does for him, at any price. However he knows that to do that he will lose you, which he doesn’t want to do either. He wants both of you. He has created this nice cozy little world where his needs get met by two people at the same time and it feels so good that he thinks “Why should I give it up, if I just keep both of them happy I can probably keep this going a little longer”. He will do anything you say to keep you and anything she says to keep her. He’ll sign a no contact letter then ring up the OW the next day and apologize to her, saying you forced him to do it but he doesn’t mean it. He’ll tell you anything, and I mean anything, to make you think it’s over and then go and see her as soon as you’re not looking. He’ll do anything except give her up. He has to hit rock bottom before he’ll do that and even then he’ll try to keep both relationships going, even as his addiction destroys him and everyone he loves. That’s why it’s an addiction - it doesn’t make sense to any normal person but it makes sense to us addicts.

What he really needs is to understand; deep down inside, that if he wants her he loses you. End of story. Not negotiable. Its me or her. Choose! Of course that’s the last thing he wants to hear which is why he seems so conflicted and stressed and crazy right now. He never expected to get caught and have to rejoin the real world of honest, responsible adults again.

Now you can communicate that clearly and calmly and lovingly and you can even offer some support like going to counseling with him or allowing him to continue to use the joint bank account, but from now on you are the boss because he is too sick to be trusted.

This is very hard on you and you will feel like giving up so you need all the support you can get. But if you are consistent and stick at it, it will work. Either he will come back wholeheartedly or he will stay with her and you will know where you stand. That sounds hard but it’s better than what you have now. What’s critical is that you do not allow him to have both you and her. Don’t enable his addiction by making it easy for him.

That’s where I depart a bit from Dr Harley on Plan A.. When my wife plan A’d me it just allowed me to have my cake and eat it too. What really crushed me into submission was when I actually left my family and faced the consequences of my decision. That was when I truly realized that I didn’t want one women or the other I wanted both women and that just cant happen. I had to choose just one and live with the choice for better or worse.

So my advice is to separate for a time, with the offer that you will always take him back if he toes the line but that any contact of any type with the OW is completely out of the question. He must fire her or quit, no matter what the consequences. I also would avoid contacting her or being with him when he does, unless he genuinely requests it. Addicts need time to see the consequences of their actions for themselves and then give up of their own free will. If you force them they resent you and are always looking over their shoulder for an opportunity to get another hit.

But remember he can’t be trusted at the moment. He will lie, cheat and steal to keep both of you. You have to make it impossible for him to have it both ways. Just like he promised when you first got married. At the moment the only way to love him is to be tough and stand up for what you will accept in the relationship. Don’t enable his behavior.

One more thing don't threaten divorce. That's neither her nor there in his thinking. This is about losing you, not the legal status of that loss. Just say that you won't accept or allow his behaviour to hurt you any more and if and when he is ready to come back you will accept him.
Now he may turn around immediately and say its over but dont believe a word of it. He's lying. He cant get over this in a day or a week. Hes just saying what you want to hear to get you off his case.
Wait until he is prepared to allow you complete access to every part of his life, time, money, job, everything and then allow him to come back when you have proof that it is over. The best possible outcome would be that you both move back to the US. Really there's no fast way out of this situation.

Wow, grxannm I can't thank you enough. Yes today via Instant Messenger he said he wanted the A to keep going and let it "die and natural death" again. So I said ok, I am going home but you lose me big time if you let that happen.
I cannot guarantee you I will want you back, and I may have even found someone new by then...as I don't know how long it will take for the A to "die". I said "I am so out of here..goodbye" and signed off.

Then an hour later he asked me to get back online. Said he wrote the letter and copied/pasted it to me. I said ok then I want to be in the office when you give it to her.
He adamantly refused. I said well you need to come up with a creative solution here, because I cannot trust that you will actually deliver it. I HAVE to know that you did it.
After you deliver it you call me, leave the office immediately and come home. I want your phone for the next few days. We have to be out of our apartment by Wednesday so I said we need to leave for awhile together. He agreed.

It scares me what you wrote, but I believe it. I know it's an extremely difficult road ahead, and I expect things to be bad. Heck, they already have been horrible.

So what do I do now? There is a temporary apartment that we can stay in. Do we stay there together? I don't think me going back to the US alone will help. He found us a permanent apartment that's available on Sept.1. I gave him a copy of Surviving an Affair and he's almost done reading it. He says everything is 110% correct. I know these next steps are crucial. But our living situation has me stumped right now. Thanks again for your help!!!

Great, yesterday he ended the A, told me he was committed to working on us. Had a nice dinner, walk, etc. Then this morning changed his mind again and said he really needs me to go back to the US while he continues to see her. He feels he needs to really realize I'm gone before he can "recover". And that maybe 17 years is all we're meant to have together. That it's not so much this OW that's causing his feelings.

What a devastating blow. I am so tired of this back and forth, but this time I think it's really serious. When he asked me what date I wanted my airline ticket I collapsed.
I can't bear the cold look in his eyes, it's unexplainable the pain. But, nobody likes to hang around where they're not wanted. Now I'm alone in the apartment packing.
I can't believe it.....

Michi,

You are in my prayers (tears)...
You will survive...
Breathe...
This too shall pass and love will be in your life again soon, I feel it...

holiday

Michi...I saw this and thought of you: This was written today by FaithfulNewCJ. I hope it can help...

You think you’re going to die—or you want to. It will feel like your heart has been ripped out of your chest while you’re still alive. You’re whole life will cave in. It may feel like you’ve lost everything you’ve ever worked for or dreamt of. Everything you THOUGHT you believed in will be destroyed. You may cry for days, 25 hours a day. You won’t be able to eat or sleep or even think AT ALL. Don’t think less of yourself if you give a thought to dying, because I think most people do; just be brave enough to reach out to someone—even here on MB.

We have four words of practical advice: 1) Do not give in to the temptation to buy a case of Jack and a box set of Merl. Yeah, it can be tempting to “numb out” and plunge into depression, but not advisable. 2) Buy lotion Kleenex, because if you buy regular Kleenex and cry this much, you will rub your eyes and nose raw; lotion Kleenex will not hurt so much. 3) Buy some soup, because you can’t swallow with that big lump in your throat; however, soup is liquid and warm and sort of nourishing, and at least it will be something in your stomach that you can choke down. 4) Come on here to MB as much as you can or go be with your mom or your sister or brother…people who care about you and will take care of you for a little while. We think almost everyone here on MB has been in your shoes and thought about wanting to die, so we understand what it’s like.

During this phase, the Wandering Spouse (WS) is usually still heavily into their affair fantasy. It’s still sort of a secret, and it’s based on addiction to the Other Person (OP). You, the Betrayed Spouse (BS) are still meeting some of their needs, but they are turning to the OP to meet other ones.

EN’s and LB’s. Okay, just a little bit you start to pull it together and you start to learn. You read here on the MB site…or read His Needs/Her Needs (HNHN) or LoveBusters (LB)…or even some of the other sites like Dr. Phil or DivorceBusters. You begin to get it--you realize you’ve been a jerk and haven’t appreciated what you had. You learn about Giver and Taker, and you discover the Love Bank. You grasp the concept of emotional needs (EN’s) and lovebusters (LB’s). You figure out what your own EN’s are and take a good guess what your WS’s might be. You know what your own LB’s are, and you recognize that you hurt your WS by LB-ing over and over again. You feel bad about yourself because you behaved like that. There is a major change within you, because you GET IT!! But for some reason your WS doesn’t see any change in you and doesn’t believe it’s real—they WILL say it’s just a temporary change to “get them back” and that you’ll go back to the same old, same old once they come back. You wonder, “Why can’t they see it? Why don’t they believe it’s real?”

During this phase, the affair (A) has been going along a little longer, but the WS is growing more hostile and vicious in order to justify their behavior. Maybe they move out or at least threaten divorce.


Plan A. Now that you have read and learned and seen your part in how your marriage (M) got to this point, you decide to put your learning into action. You make the effort to work on yourself and end all LB’s. You want to meet your spouse’s EN’s and you do your best, but they don’t want you to anymore. You’ll feel like you’re a doormat giving into their every capricious whim, and they’ll still keep acting vicious. It feels like a lose-lose situation because you’re killing yourself for them, and they’re killing you too! Very often a BS will incorrectly think that Plan A means Plan Doormat and you might let your WS just walk all over you. This part is very, very hard because it feels a lot like you are giving, Giving, GIVING and they are taking, Taking, TAKING without even giving you hope in return.

During this phase, WS’s will often “fence-sit.” They don’t really want to lose their house or their kids, and life with you may not have been perfect but they don’t want to lose what EN’s you did meet. By the same token, they are absolutely ADDICTED to the OP, and the OP makes them feel so good. They can’t seem to break away. Often, you’ll hear things like, “I need some space” or “I need time to myself to think.” It seems like they are perpetually confused and can’t make up their mind. The WS is cake-eating: getting EN’s met by you and by the OP. They want BOTH.


Exposure. In the best interest of your M, you expose the A to the WS’s parents, your parents, your pastor, and the people at your WS’s work—people who are in the best position to have a positive affect on your WS. Now the A is no longer a delicious “secret” and it is brought to the light of day (and truth). The WS WILL rage for about a week or two. RAGE!!!!!!! They’ll blame you for “doing this to them.” They’ll claim that now they can’t trust you. They’ll be furious that you invaded their privacy. They may even say, “If you expose this anymore I will divorce you” or “You will drive me into the arms of OP.” Everything will be aimed to make you look like the “bad guy.” They want to justify their choices and everything will be a reflection of how bad “you” are. They want to take the focus off of them. At this point, you are the last best hope for your M, so stand firm and don’t let their whirlwind of blame sway you from your course. Just remember that the WS made the choices and decisions to have the A, and all you did was burst the bubble of secrecy and let people know what is happening…they “did it to themselves” by deciding to have the A.

During this phase, the WS will be infuriated, will rage against the machine, will justify, rationalize and defend the indefensible. This is when the addiction of the A is most evident, because now their mom and dad, their work, and everyone knows—but they still can’t end it. Like a drug-addict, they will do anything and hurt anyone (even those they love) to get another fix of their drug…the OP. Keep that image of a drug-addict in mind, and envision the exposure as an intervention. No addict LIKES an intervention, and they fight against it tooth and nail, but in the end, it is in their best interests.


…at this point things can go one of two ways:
1) The WS softens their heart, admits they were wrong, wants to end the A and make things right, agrees to no contact (NC), and takes accountability measures like sharing email passwords, cell phone records, schedules, etc. If this is how your WS responds, then we would STRONGLY encourage you to have an equally soft heart, trust but confirm, and don’t hold it over their head forever. Yep, there is a LOT of damage done, and a lot from which to heal, but have a little empathy and compassion. As a couple you two can begin Recovery, discover what weaknesses lead to this A, and build a stronger, closer marriage.

2) The WS hardens their heart and continues despite being exposed. The raging and blaming continues. They refuse to admit they were wrong; they do ANY THING to continue the A; they go deeper underground and continue contact with the OP; they keep secrets and demand “privacy”—and they absolutely refuse any sort of counseling or coaching. If this is how your WS responds, then you might progress to Plan B.

Plan B. You decide it’s time for Plan B, but the thought of cutting off contact with your WS is terrifying. You are SURE that you will drive them straight into the arms of the OP and straight to divorce court. But against all your instincts, you take a leap of faith, hoping against hope that this will finally be the thing that wakes your WS up. You agonize over every word of your Plan B letter, and you let folks on the forum critique it. And then finally, one day, you give your WS the letter—this is probably one of the hardest things you’ll ever do. It is SO scary!!!! In some ways you are just as addicted to them as they are to their lover. The first few hours and days, you will come up with a zillion “reasons” why you HAVE TO contact them. “It’s for the kids,” you’ll say. “I’m just passing along information that they need to know.” Basically, you are so afraid that you’re losing them that you feel compelled to do something!

The very best thing you can do for yourself, your WS, and your M is to find a REALLY GOOD FRIEND who will sit up with you for a couple days and talk you out of it. Like someone who has an unhealthy attachment, you will have an enormously strong desire to break the Plan B, and all this will do for your WS is demonstrate to them that you don’t mean what you say, and that you don’t think enough of yourself to follow through on your own word. STAND STRONG. Get someone to be with you and don’t call. It will be a very rough couple of days, but you will get through it. Perhaps you could go for 15 minutes at a time (“I won’t call for 15 minutes, and in 15 minutes I’ll re-evaluate if I even want to call”) because 30 minutes or an hour is WAY too long!

When you establish Plan B, expect your WS to be MAD. They will NOT like the idea that you are taking back control of your life or the situation. They will be angry that you took away one of the pieces of their cake. They will make threats and say things to hurt you in order to get you to react (and by reacting, we mean contacting them). They will try all kinds of tricks to get you to back off of your Plan B. Expect this, and recognize it for what it is: an attempt to re-engage you in the cake-eating lifestyle.

When Plan B works, it works precisely BECAUSE the WS is driven into the arms of the OP. Now, the WS has to depend entirely upon the OP to meet all their needs. Now that the A is no longer a delicious secret, they have to deal with all of “real life”—bills, and kids and everything. When the A was a secret, the WS thought it was going to be “heaven” to be with the OP. In real life, the kids are hurt and angry and don’t like the OP at all!! In real life, the OP doesn’t provide the big house and new car that the WS has learned to enjoy. In real life, they start to argue over bills and having to live in an apartment. In real life, the OP has to go to work and isn’t always around to whisper sweet nothings. In real life, the OP is a cheater, and starts to see someone on the side—cheating on your WS –or- the OP didn’t really want to leave his or her M for your WS, they just wanted to continue the secret.


ONGOING THINGS YOU WILL EXPERIENCE:

Self-pity – bad choices: You’ll make mistakes, some bad decisions, react poorly at times. You’ll turn into a human marshmallow, maybe even embarrass yourself. You’ll do things that are “out of character” and not really you. You’ll feel as low as the dirt under a slug, and feel worthless, unloved and unlovable. A lot of the time, you may feel like one gigantic MISTAKE. You may keep going back to a WS that abuses you. You may let your WS trample your boundaries—or shoot, you may not even HAVE boundaries! You may just completely lose it and LB all over the place. You may be tempted to have an affair of your own. You may become a complete doormat—or on the other hand, you may become domineering or controlling. You may want to “MAKE” them come to MB. Just remember that this is natural and we’ve all done it.

The Rollercoaster: You will feel like killing yourself or your WS today, and feel like you “just might make it” the next day. You will feel completely sucked dry and torn up one day, and hopeful the next. You will be “up” then “down” then “up” then “down”—and eventually you will get a little seasick from the rollercoaster of emotions. Just remember that eventually it does level out, whether your M recovers or just you do.

Babbling: The WS will babble pretty much as long as they are involved with the OP in the A. They will completely revise history. They’ll say they’ve been miserable for YEARS, or you’ve neglected and hurt them for YEARS. They may even say, “We were NEVER in love” or “I have never loved you like a wife or husband should.” Actually, Orchid is our WS Babbling expert,Reverse Babble, but just remember that this is also pretty normal. A lot of what comes out of the WS’s mouth is meant to shift blame or focus off of them and onto you, so don’t take it to heart. Even if there is a modicum of truth to what they’re saying (and there most likely will be), know that you two WERE once in love, and DID have some happy times and loving years. See if you can learn to recognize WS Babble and practice reverse babble if you can get the hang of it.


FNCJ and DD

--------------------
Me: BS, 43yo INFP; exH: abusive, bipolar, BPD, serial cheater, ESTJ; Divorce final 5-23-03; NewBF: 47yo, single dad, INTP

"There is no key to happiness...the door is always open"

My Story
faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com


Peace,
holiday

Thank you !!!!!