Many of you know my story WH is a serial cheat - I've been here 2 years now..Many suggested I Plan B long ago..I didn't listen - I had too much to lose since we own a business, wasn't happy w/legal councel, etc.

FINALLY... I have built enough strength and have faith in a new attorney to

Start looking for a house
Get enough on MOW to fire her from our business (which I plan on doing next week)
Get finances in order to buy a house
Give him the I don't give a damn attitude
Built a high wall around myself from him
Am pretty much ready to Plan B - then Plan D

Well - low and behold I stayed out till 3am 2 weeks ago - innocent enough I was with a gf and her husband on their boat..WH freaks out..thinking I was up to no good..next day, he does an about face and is acting like our M is on the mend..though, he has not "talked" about where we are headed (yes, I need that)...He has not committed to working on the M verbally..He has not shown remorse, hasn't slowed down on his drinking..not drunk but everyday has a couple..or more..etc., etc..

TODAY - 3 days b-4 I am about to fire MOW - he tells me to book a vacation for us - anywhere, any cost..

WHAT the heck am I supposed to do???? Do I go away and "hope" we talk this out??? Do I keep the wall up and say screw you - I'm done?? Do I book it and still fire MOW and let the chips fall?? OR

Do I tell him what I need...A committment - the truth about all the other women before I can go away w/him..Should I advance worn him on firing her??? and see what his reaction is..IMHO if he truly wants to work on our M - he'll understand that I cannot continue to work in the same frickin bldg. w/that tramp..That if he respects me at all he'll allow me to fire her...tell him I made some financial changes in order to move out and buy a house(he'll explode on that one)..

What should I do??? Everyone is right - love is a choice...For almost 2 years I told myself I loved this man, I wanted my M..now for 6 months I've said - I don't love him like I did...I want out..I want a real M...I want someone to appreciate, love and respect me...I don't want HIM anymore..I cant' be w/a man that was w/this many women...Now, I believe it...You can definately talk yourself in and out of love..maybe he's talking himself back into it?? Maybe he's again just "reeling me back in" then he'll crap on me again..I can't do this again...

How do I get the truth of what is going on....

HELP..................

Whatever you do, don't warn him about firing her. You can't trust him or his motives IMHO.

It seems like he's trying put a band-aid on a spurting artery.

He has NO clue!

His superficial attempts at trying to "woo" you back don't mean a thing.

Has he offered to STOP drinking? Is he going to AA? If so, who is his sponsor? THat is Step #1...no recovery can happen while an addict is still consuming their "demon".

Has he come clean about all of his A's and answered ALL of your questions about those A's?

Has he offered to STOP ALL contact with his "tramps" and written letter to all of them?

Has he said he wants to go to MC and actually WORK on your M?

Bottom line IMHO, he is throwing words and money (vacation) at you while shying away from the REAL and difficult work repairing your marriage.

I would not believe him for a second...

I went through something similar last week when STBXW and I met and she actually wrote down what I expected in reconciliation. THings SEEMED positive, but again...no action on her part and then she tell me later that she can't go through the "scrutiny" required of her during reconciliation...we are DONE!

Nothing she can do will save us now...My LB with her is in the RED.

Don't sell your heart short...

What has he really DONE (as seen by action) that would lead you to believe he wants to work on your M?

Good luck!

Scott

He's in the tunnel and he sees the oncoming train...

I would fire MOW without any warning to either of them...she may have an inkling that she's going to be fired and has sicced him on you to save her @$$. That will be a real indicator of who is more important to him, MOW or you. Either way, she has to go!

If you want, write up a DETAILED list of your EXPECTATIONS and ask him if he WILL meet them and PROVE it by action...

FULL SPEED AHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By trusting yourself that you are capable of recognizing ~actual~ loving behaviors when you see them.

By trusting yourself that you can ~smell~ crap when you've stepped in it.

By trusting yourself that you are willing to walk away from a sick-cyclic relationship pattern.

By trusting yourself to plant seeds and fertilize and water and weed your own personal garden ... keeping your own inventory neat and real.

WSNBS - The only thing WH has done - is to tell me when he is going somewhere..Calls me from his cell when he's out..and has been taking me out to dinner/drinks.

BUT - HELLO - You did all this while you were having multiple A's. Only when caught in the snare trap did he become openly rotten to me...did he say that I was a B****..b-4 that it was honey, babe, etc..and when he hooked up w/the one at work - he became ugly since his daughter was good friends w/this tramp...

No - he has not stopped drinking - becoz he doesn't think he drinks too much..He thinks it's recreational and that since he doesn't have "anything else to do" - sitting in a bar for 5-8 hrs. a couple of nites is "something to do"..

Your right Scott - when looking at it - he's DONE NOTHING except be alittle nicer..he's SAID NOTHING about "us"..Why????

Because "WE" have lived in a dysfunctional M for so long and "WE" have never really talked things over in that past. All arguments before this (rarely) were just forgotten..We'd just start the new day like the prior day never happened..

I think a "Come to Jesus meeting" is way overdue here..I refuse to put my heart on my sleeve again. I can't - I have come to far..I can't go back..

Or am I pushing him away??? WHen maybe he is trying..I hate this.....

"pushing him away"

tell me you are NOT serious!

Look if he is trying he will respect your need to set goals and boundaries. What is the short term goals you need such as getting an enoitanl need met or no contact? What are the long term goals such as no drinking and a framework for you two to communicate safely?

He needs an impetus for change and that may be the train-wreck; you have to determine what you will do when the crash occurs.

If you want to know as for Me -- I have decided to move on, since our core values are so different what do I have to build upon? I was dragged through the chaos and am still in it to a degree but will work to get out and back as a real person again.

Go through with your original plan. I see nothing that says I want to recover this M.

You have put up with plenty enough in the last two years. You still need to fire MOW no matter how you look at it or even if you do ever recover she will always be in your life. Get rid of the pest while you have the evidence and the proof that you need to do it. Do it NOW and get it over with before you are sorry later.

HINY

Unfortunately Pep - I am SERIOUS...Anytime I shut him out and set boundaries I truly feel that he feels I'm "pushing him away".. I can bet he left our M for probably more years than I know of..Deep down, I doubt he can change and never have another A..I believe it's who he is..That NO one woman will ever be enough for him..He's a bottomless pit, a man w/ no self-esteem, a man that cannot have true intimacy..Yet - I accept some fault..I accept that we have been dysfunctional and neither of us know how to have a great M..

Yes - WNB - he and her may have heard rumor that I am planning to fire her. maybe WH realizes she's a nut case, drunk, tramp, etc. Maybe he sees that no matter what he's done to me - verbally, emotionally, physically, I remained true to my vows..and that's the kind of woman a man should want..

Well then, I guess this makes you the perfect wife for a serial unremorseful adulteror.

I apologize for assuming incorrectly you were going to try something different.

Ask him point-blank "THese are my boundaries and needs...will you, as proven by your ACTIONS, meet them?"

Use my "laundry list" at the top as a start if you want...he has a whole @$$-load of rows to hoe and I truly doubt that he is capable of it...

You are also well within your rights to tell him to p1$$ off...you have done way more than most people would have...

This is no time to get "wobbly"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Scott

HI Ithurts,

You have a whole laundry list of needs, he offers a dinky vacation, and you're reconsidering? Huh? That's all it took? He's sure got your number, doesnt he?

Not even close.

Nothing has changed. Proceed as planned.

Good luck to you - Dru

Of course you're pushing him away, why wouldnt you want to? You're pushing him away from a woman who deserves to be respected. You're pushing away a man who will continue to trash you.

Push harder <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ITHURST, let's look at this logically.

- You already know you can't take him at his word. You need to see actions that show you he is sincere.

- In general, showing you those actions take time. There is no substitute.

- You really would like at least a clue if the actions are going to follow now.

- There are signs a WS who has truly had a change of heart can show immediately that will help you see they are sincere. They still need to be backed up by the actions. But if you don't see the immediate signs, the actions aren't going to follow.

Now I'm sure you're saying to yourself that there are no "magic" signs you can see to know this before you've waited through their actions. No, but you cam bet if you DON'T see these signs first, the actions are not going to follow, at least not over the long-term, if at all.

The signs are remorse and regret.

So, how do you recognize the signs of remorse and regret? By the WSs willing to make restitution. How do you know this? By the following:

- The WS is truly apologetic about what was done that hurt you. Even once you've forgiven, the WS is going to keep saying things like "I'm so sorry," or "I can't believe I did all those things to hurt you," or something like that. If you hear those words and still question if they are sincere, there's probably a good chance that they aren't

- The WS understands why you no longer trust the WS, and is willing to be accountable in whatever way you see fit in order to earn your trust again. Now I know some WSs will start complaining that no matter what they do, it will never be enough. Unless is has been several years with no slip-ups, and you are still demanding they be completely accountable for every second of their day, you will generally only hear this complaint from WSs after several days, weeks, or months of lip-service. And you will generally hear it when the WS wants you to lighten up so they can go back to the old cheating ways. If you are still showing no trust after several years of very good behavior on the part of the WS, you have the problem and it needs to be addressed. But from what I've seen, impatience on the part of the WS in this area is because the regret and remorse they are showing is not sincere.

- Patience and understanding about your anger. If the WS truly understands what he/she has done, and is truly remorseful about it, he/she will understand your anger, probably feel he/she deserves it, and will ride it out. Again, the caveat is that if this has gone on for a long time, say, longer than a year, and your anger hasn't gotten any better, then the WS has a legitimate complaint. But especially at the very beginning, the truly remorseful WS EXPECTS your anger, and is willing to endure it because they think you deserve to be angry, at least for a while.

- They realize that you need to put up boundaries, and the welcome them as giving them chances to prove their sincerity, to prove they have changed.


- They actually call off the affair(s). Immediately. As soon as they claim they have changed, and they want to work on things. No excuses of "well, she's going through something right now, but when she get's through it," or "I have to work up to it, but I promise I'll go NC with him in a month." That isn't remorse, that isn't regret. That's knowing you can be manipulated, and they are only saying what they need to say to get you to hold on a while longer.

I'm sure others could add to this list, but it's a good start.

Now, IT HURTS, can you say you actually have seen the required behavior in your WH? From what you have posted, I would guess not.

And finally, remember what Harley says about a serial cheater. I experienced this. My XH did not just cheat on me - he had been actively pursuing As by posting internet ads. This had gone on for years. There's just something different in the makeup of serial affairs than there is in a single affair that happens because of circumstance. Neither are right, but I question whether it's possible for most serial cheaters to ever stop that behavior. And if it is, it will take a long time to truly get past it.

I know your emotions overwhelm you. But you have to let logic override your emotions now. When things in your life are screwed up like this, your emotions can lead you the wrong way. Think through it logically.

Working asked: What is the short term goals you need such as getting an enoitanl need met or no contact? What are the long term goals such as no drinking and a framework for you two to communicate safely?

My short term goal is to have my WH respect me - and respect himself enough to realize that I can and have taken alot of "bs" in the past 2 years - but now it's over. There is no more fence sitting - he's in or he's out..THAT'S IT..THERE IS NO OTHER ANSWER..

I don't mind if he has a couple of drinks - what I mind is that he does it too much and a 52 year old man should have something better to do than sit on a bar stool. Get a hobby, read, whatever.

I can't even guarantee at this point that with both of us trying to be a couple that our M will survive..Let alone me being the only one trying. I can't say that sexually I even want to be w/him anymore. There are times that I look at him and the attraction isn't there anymore. How can a woman be attracted to a man that she no longer respects, admires, deeply loves??? How can I have sex w/a man knowing he's been w/so many women and not all of them from the best side of the tracks? All these lose of feelings hurt me - I never wanted to feel this way - but he wouldn't stop...
Well then, I guess this makes you the perfect wife for a serial unremorseful adulteror.


Yes - I have been that "wife"..BUT - Even if I feel that I'm pushing him away - I need to bury those feelings and do what a strong/demanding respectful WOMAN would do..I am so non-confrontational that's why he's crapped on me..Yes, I confronted a few of the MOW - it's the one at work that I step lightly on..and he knows it..Why I didn't confront her long ago - I don't know - fear I guess..

Fear of losing my M ( what M ??) my job, house, car, etc. After meeting this new attorney I no longer fear that..I will survive financially/emotionally.

Of course you're pushing him away, why wouldnt you want to? You're pushing him away from a woman who deserves to be respected. You're pushing away a man who will continue to trash you.


The first step I need to take is to FIRE MOW - this isn't about saving our M - it's about MY pride, dignity, self-respect..I am paying this woman to stab me in the back..Yes, WH thinks our business is all about him..WHAT ABOUT ME?? What I'm only a dispensable employee??? That he can walk all over - that he can make an [censored] out of?

Osxgirl - WH has not verbalized his wanting to save our M - asking me to dinner/vacations isn't saying it..THough, in his mind I'm sure that he "thinks" this is the way to resolve our problems - again, no talk means no confrontation, and he's a conflict avoider as well.

If you want to save your M - he should talk to me, put his wedding ring back on and take his foot out of the S*** pile.

As for him regretting or being remoreseful - I don't think he "feels" like most of us here..WIll he make himself an open book - NO WAY..it's not him..He'd feel like a dog on a leash - he told me that long ago when he was on good behaviour..

He's in this power mode - that noone tells him what to do..and that he's some big-wheel..and that having OW is part of the whole picture.

I don't know what he'll do when I fire MOW..He may say - screw you she's not fired - then I look like the A** in her eyes and she won..

Though, that would/could be a good thing becoz then I would know w/o a doubt that he has no real intention of recovery.

I will tell him that:
1. I fired her to possibly save him in a sexual harrasment suite.
2. That if he says she stays - I tell him that this is disrespectful to me. and that I cannot work under these conditions any longer.
3. That I will do what is necessary to not have her rehired and if that doesn't work - I will file for d..

These are not threats - How can a man expect his w to put up w/this much??? Even if he Hates me..I couldn't treat anyone like this..I can't stand even looking at this tramp - everytime he talks to her - it makes me sick..Then they wonder why someone goes off the deep end????

WHat if I was the one at work having an A??? What would he do?? I can tell - he'd have fired the guy long ago..and all ****** would have broke lose...

My goal here - is to get respect, get him to seek IC or MC, and to maybe recover our M..and to have him respect himself...

THanks all - I'm going to read our employee handbook now and start listing her defiencies....

Wish me luck - this will be the hardest, yet most postive thing I've done....

Dear Ithurts,

my STBXH is a serial cheater too. He started with prostitutes, then had sex with my best friend, tried to set up a threesome with another GF of his etc. etc. When I found out he was soooo sorry... he would NEVER do it again.. we (that is, I) worked hard on our M: had our honeymoon phase and all. But he kept chatting with women on the internet, even arranged a meeting with one (non-sexual, but behind my back non the less). And a year later he went to P's again. When I found about that, something snapped inside of me. We went to a good therapist: but H didn't think anything was really wrong with him, he would just "never do it again" and our M would be OK.
Sounds familiar so far?
We have a business together too. I'm staying in it because that's better for me financially, but I want full control and no new GF meddling with it or I'm out.
I bought myself a new home and I'm moving out next week.. I'll be so relieved to leave all of this behind me.
My H isn't a "bad" person. He's very kind now, keeps telling me that he still wants me back, but started dating other women one week after I told him I want out of the M.
I could NEVER get back together with such an immature, self-centered person, however nice he can be. He doesn't care about my EN's. He knows how much hurt his selfish actions have caused me, but keeps on doing them. He has seen me crying, for days, waking up in the middle of the night, crying, in agony. Still he does it again. So what is going to stop this man from doing it again and again? I'm out of here.

I hope you will choose what is best for YOU.
Would you buy a car that has a nice color but only runs for 10 miles before braking down again and again?
I don't think so.
So why stay with a H that offers a nice vacation (nice color) but with a M that you know will break down again and again until you have no self-respect left?

I question whether it's possible for most serial cheaters to ever stop that behavior. And if it is, it will take a long time to truly get past it.

I've thought this many times - that he can't stop..It's an addiction.It's who he is...He doesn't want to stop. Nor does he want to seek councelling.

I recently learned that he also cheated on his 1 & 2 wife ( same woman) he told me she cheated..see they never see or acknowledge any fault..I've learnt that...

Knowing that he's had multiple A's makes me say - it will never change = accept him as he is or move on...I had hopes that he could change = but, you can't live your life on hopes and dreams..

I did not fire MOW today - I had the chance but someone stopped me they said if I had any hope of recovering my M = I must tell him the facts and tell him she has to go..That her disrespect of me etc. cannot be tolerated..That she was not doing her job - which I documented..

SO STUPID, STUPID me = I listened and I went home and told him everything - he said He can't fire her - that you need to build a case..I say - we are an at will state - you gave her this responsiblity exclusively and she didn't do it..and let's not forget how she treats me...I have things on her - this isn't the first issue w/this woman. I told him no "he" can't for fear of sexual h - but I can..

He said as usual - NOONE TELLS ME WHAT TO DO..

I explained that I wasn't telling him what to do..I was telling him what I needed..That I can't take working in this environment anymore..He basically said, screw you Yeah, he's more afraid of his daughter (who is friends w/this tramp) than of his wife and the lose of a marriage and money..

Well, I give up...enough is enough...Call my attorney on Monday and move on..He has NO RESPECT FOR ME..plain and simple.


Brown - Thanks for your reply - unfortunely, he owns the majority and he does know more about this business than I do..My attorney would like me to stay in as a silent partner since finacially that's in my best interest..BUT, between the drinking and the woman..Unless our D is a huge wake up call for him - I dont' foresee the business continuing to be profitable..or that he won't screw me out of $$$$$...So I don't think I want to stay in business w/him..He's on a downward spiral - though he feels he's way above the rest of us..

This was the slap in the face I needed - I needed again to hear some tramp is worth more to him than I am..All this being nice/vacation was a game and I'm not playing anymore..I've lost...but, I will regain my dignity and self=respect w/o him..

Oh yeah and right now he's out drinking - why?? he's not sorry, stressed, etc..I'm the one that should be drinking..hahaha 5th day in a row..Maybe his liver and his d*** will wear out at the same time.

Hugs..

This is true in my H's case. I told him I need to feel it is genuine, otherwise I cannot believe he really feels that way. But, my sitch is different than others in that he is the BS too--does not change that I need to believe that he is truly sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> This may destroy our M because I do need to see it and I just don't (I did on D-day when he was crying).