Honestly, if you're not able to calm down and control yourself, maybe you SHOULD seperate for a while. It's possible that it could do you both some good. Give her a chance to miss the things that you do for her...and give you some time to sort through, decide what you need to heal from this (or not, if that's your choice), and get a plan together on how to proceed from here.

It sounds to me like you both need some serious counselling. The name calling and such needs to end...and so does your angry behavior.

Think about it...see if you can take a week off of work, a week by yourself someplace, and THINK things through. (assuming you feel you can trust HER that long too I guess)

So we went to MC on 17 JAN 06 - just ironic that the day (D-Day + 6 months) I had thought about being the cut-off date for Plan A, was the day we finally got an appointment for. I have been seeing changes in her behavior for the better, I think. I have been going to IC (twice a week) as well, to vent and talk. My counselor hardly gets a word in edgewise (and Wife has not called the cops on me since I started going, if that means anything). Our MC session went pretty well, actually -- she thought we were going to "gang up" on her, but he validated some of her concerns as well as mine, made us ask each other things directly. Wife was happy after session, giving me a kiss in hallway and saying that she thinks we will have a stronger marriage for it. We couldn't get another session until Mon 30 JAN, so I am waiting it out, collecting issues I want to bring up.

Finally got to her cell phone records - last call from OM incoming for 1 minute on 03 AUG at 1:42 pm. This was the same day I found his number replaced in phonebook on her cell phone after I deleted it. What a coincidence. I have not harped about this, saving it for MC session. Left call record w/ this call highlighted in yellow laying on kitchen counter, though. I guess I am kind of a pr1ck!

Hey DG! I was wondering where you have been. NC since August is great and I am so happy to hear you are getting help for your anger. Are you two working out a recovery plan yet?

She still hates the books - all of them. But she has agreed (in word, at least) to read "How to Gain Respect and Forgiveness After Your Affair" by Katie Coston. She perceives all that as an attempt by me to control and manipulate her (into sex, mainly). Which it probably is, to some extent - I tried to explain that I just want this to be over, and for us to move past all these mixed emotions and get to where we should have been all along, and that SF would help me feel so much better and positive and like she really is committed, and that she could be happy too, that I do know how to please a woman, et cetera, but she's not hearing it yet. I do realize that I did coerce her into sex before the A, so pressure of any sort from my end will not help. She assures me that we'll get there. She is being a lot more positive now that I have some sort of control over myself. I think I scared the he11 out of her by acting stupid and upset and violent.

Last night I got the trespassing/harassment complaint from her workplace forbidding me to go there or even call or contact any of them elsewhere. What happened was that she was a hour late coming home, and didn't call, and her office phone was busy, so I went in to her work, brushed past the receptionist with a curt "hello" and walked right past the "Employees Only" sign to her office, knocked on door, told her quietly that if she was trying to engender trust, that this was not the way to go about it. I was upset last night because they had their facts all wrong about what happened, claiming I slammed and locked my wife's office door. Even my wife and the guy in the next office said that there was no slamming or screaming, and I definitely did not lock the office door. I did, however, ignore the "Employees Only" sign, but I had been back that hallway before. So yeah, I was out of line and I don't really care about the contact limitation with these [censored], but the principle about them lying about how I acted and what I did has me miffed. So I started to get angry with her last night because she didn't defend me at all to them (like she has a choice, it's her job and we can't afford to lose it). I started to dig in about the affair and the deceit and just bla bla bla crap. She talked me down. It was amazing. I don't know if it's the marriage counseling or what, but she knew to tell me, calmly, that she thought I was mad at a situation that was not of her making and that she thought I was taking it out on her and pointed out how unfair that is, calmly. Since she didn't really get ultra-angry/attrition-defensive, I was able to cool down right away and see that I was being an [censored] about it. Bottom line: She agreed to look for a different job while still working there; I emailed her her old resumes from last year, and she had a positive attitude about it (she did gently remind me that she does have work to do while she's there, that she can't spend all her time on it).

She also has said some other things that are seeming "good" to me lately. For example, when her boss and the HR director at work (who are banging each other and stepping out on their respective "others": the boss's wife and the HR director's live-in boyfriend who takes care of her child from the marriage she left to be with him - soap opera bullsh1t) "sat her down" to discuss my little "intrusion", they told her outright that she should leave her husband, look, S. is OK and she left her husband, somebody's gonna get killed, bla bla bla. She did not appreciate this at all; I mean, she doesn't let me "control" her, and for them to meddle in her personal life was too much for her to take. Of course she stewed about it over that weekend before she told me what was said, but I am starting to understand that people (women especially) need time to process stuff, and if she had told me right away, I might have over-reacted and she needed to deal with it in her way, without my "noise" distracting her. She also said she is starting to see these people for what they are (she has been ostracized by the b1tchy little click of girls "out front" because she won't join in their girlish little games, because she skipped the X-mas party, and generally because my old lady "don't take sh1t, don't give sh1t, ain't in the sh1t business" and doesn't take her pretention to the levels that these uneducated slack-jawed small-minded lucky-they-got-a-job no-skills-having bumpkin-[censored] two-faced robbing-the-system f*cks do).

We even discussed how to bring that whole business down after she leaves. They are shady as he11 and they made the mistake of letting her near shady financial documents and a copy machine at the same time. They are a cell phone resale company and they are setting up what I call "Virtual Kiosks". They set up fake "kiosks", and then the cell phone company (won't mention any names directly, but it begins with "Nex" and ends in "tel") pays them for all the equipment (display cases, cash register, telecommunications cost, point-of-sale device, -- EVERYTHING THEY NEED!). So they set up this fake company that ostensibly installs all this crap and to cash the checks that they receive from the cell phone company (that begins with "Nex" and ends in "tel"). She has copies of checks and invoices. Every time they do this they make about $30K "pure profit", as it were. I'm pretty sure the cell phone company (that begins with "Nex" and ends in "tel") would be VERY interested to know how they are being taken for a ride by these scumbag low-life slimy f*cking leeches. Maybe even to the point of giving up a certain percent of the recovery to the finder. Hee hee. It irks me that I stick to my so-so salary job trying to help educate and better myself and the kids at the college I work for, and these f*cks are out there pulling this sh1t and getting away with it. It irks her too, because she sees all the books where she works and knows how badly she and the girls that work there are getting screwed over. They hire guys for sales positions and pay them salaries (+ monthly bonuses), while they hire only girls for the front office and books and pay them (shoddily) by the hour (which is why we don't understand their blind loyalty to the business).

The other thing I have been sorta considering is an e-attack. I mean, how hard would it be to screw that whole place over? I am pretty good with techy stuff, and all their email addresses at her work follow this format:
firstname.lastname@domain.com
so it would not be that hard to set up a bot to spam-bomb them with a nice note about the boss and the HR director about 5 billion times. Also, since I now have admin access to all their cell-phones, I could conceivably shut down all their phones with a few clicks on the internet. They could turn them back on, I guess, but it would cost them.

I am just shooting the breeze here, I guess, trying to empower myself and not seem so petty, but these people made a bona-fide attempt to come between myself and my wife. I will never forgive them for that -- as far as I'm concerned they could all be dying slowly and horribly and I would be standing there, poking one eye out of each of their f*cking heads, laughing, and p1ss in the empty respective sockets. How's that for releasing anger???????????

FF - thanks for looking out for me. I feel that we (my Wife and I - it feels OK to say "We" now) have turned or are turning the corner and I am thinking now is the point to actually up the plan A back up to where it was when she got home? What do you think? She has said that the Plan A when she came home was too much and she didn't believe it because she thought I was just scared of losing her and trying to manipulate her into staying. I was p1ssed because I put in all that work for nothing, seemingly, so I have been slacking a little lately. Plus the no sex thing still has me bummed out, but what can I do about that but wait and go to counseling? She stll doesn't understand how she is pushing me away with this no-sex thing, but she did say something like she needs to feel like I would "slay the dragon", figuratively, before she has sex with me. She still doesn't trust me, I guess, and I can't blame her -- it's not like there was a lot of trust coming from my end either, and I am starting to realize that the things I did before the affair are still there in her mind and are still valid gripes. So I have not been pushing or talking about the sex thing - I just "yank it like a monkey in a mango tree" once in a while. Oh, I forgot to mention -- I borrowed a digital camera from work and she has let me take some shots of her while getting ready for work, in various states of dress and even undress. She doesn't appreciate the flash in her face, but I think she realizes that I need some sort of sexual outlet, and she did request that I get rid of the porn (and I did), so maybe this is her way of saying that she really does want to hang on to me. Maybe she is really really scared that the sex will go all wrong (like I had any hope or expectation of it being spectacular anyway first time after the A) and I will not want her anymore? Anyway, I am kinda sorta happy about the pix (of course "in the flesh", so to speak, would be better) and she said it's not so bad to her if she knows I am thinking about her when I masturbate, instead of porno chix. Yay for the [censored]. It is true what they say about the left hand feeling like a stranger, but even that is getting old.

Why can't people (me included) just say what is in their hearts instead of letting resentment and mistrust build up for years, to the point where somebody goes outside the marriage? I thought humans were the most intelligent race on the planet... Maybe not. I certainly feel like a fool.

So anyway, I'm getting my sense of humor (modifying it according to W's needs, of course) back as you may be able to tell from the tone of this post and I can now drink a beer or two without flipping out and getting nasty and hostile. I am going to restrict alcohol input to just beer, no liquor, and take it easy at that. The IC has helped me greatly to see that I am not the only person in the world (but of course it feels that way when one is whacked out), and to try and put myself in my wife's shoes once in a while. The shrink has gotten about 6 words in edgewise so far, but it has only been about 6 sessions, I think. The shrink is a nice attractive lady (not sexy - the frame is real light up top) who is a few years older than me. She is comfortable talking about sex - I don't know if this a good thing - maybe I should switch to a man - or maybe the female insight will help? What do you think, FF?

Please, everybody is welcome to comment.

FF - thanks again and I hope your life is going swimmingly.

DG, does your W do email? What I do with my H is I send him some of the posts from MB to read. One you might consider starting with is the thread which talks about what the WS/BS must do to recover by suzet

The SF issue sounds touchy. Are you being patient with her now? It is very important that you stop all LB's, DJ's and AO's to show her you truly have changed. Please don't give her a hard time about work either. I am sure she does not want to jeopardize her job. Just apologize to her and calmly ask her to call you anytime she is going to be late.

DG, revenge is not all it is cracked up to be. Reporting her company to the BBB may be a good thing. But revenge tactics just encourges and enflames the anger you are trying to let go of. There is a book by Melody Beattie called 'The Language of Letting Go'. It is a co-dependency book. It has been very helpful for me in understanding my need to control others and situations that I truly have not control over. Thus emflaming my anger. It is a small book and is basically a daily read or you can read ahead. You may want to pick it up and face the need to control head on. It is hard, I still struggle but am doing much better.

It sounds like she is finally getting through withdrawl. Now is the time for you to really show her how you have changed and make those changes for life. Remember, recovery is a marathon not a sprint! many of us here relate to this thought. The fact that she is telling you to slay dragons is great. She is opening up and telling you to be her hero. Slay the dragon of your anger, impatience and the SF issues. Start by just holding her in bed. Touch her without it leading to SF. Let her feel safe with you.

Stay in touch and perhaps you can get her to post here some day. Tell her we have a thread going right now that FWWs are posting on. It has been very cathartic for all of us. Keep in touch ok?

DG-

This isn't an attack...I don't know you, so there isn't anything personal in this at all. Just my observations based on what I've read in your posts.

It sounds to me as though you've got some serious anger issues to deal with...not that all of us who have been a BS don't have to deal with it, but you simply sound a LOT more angry than most who post here. Your actions with your wife, the tone and word choice you use here...all indicate that you've got a LOT of anger in general.

Have you considered some form of individual counseling to help you deal with this? It seems to me that your R with your wife would benifit greatly from something along these lines.

I'd also suggest that you take the Emotional Needs questionaire and sit down with your wife and work it out with her. Perhaps if she realizes that SF is an emotional need especially for a lot of men, it can help her put it all into perspective.

One other thing...something BOTH of you could stand to remember. Trust is EARNED...over time. It's NOT just given. And when it's damaged, it's EARNED BACK. Over time. By demonstrating trustworthy behavior to your spouse, you slowly and surely earn that trust back. Both of you should consider some ways of demonstrating trust to each other...and things to ask the other to in order to begin rebuilding that trust. And work on that.

Oh...and another thought. Start DATING your wife again. Schedule some time together, without the kids, that you two can do things to just have fun together. Make this time a NO RELATIONSHIP DISCUSSION time...no talking about he A, no relationship stuff at all. Just enjoy each other's company. You'll be amazed at how that can help the two of you to reconnect.

Yes - I am going to an IC twice a week and we both are going to MC (one session so far on 17 JAN, next one 30 JAN).



I would love to but she pulls back when confronted with books and "homework", as she puts it.



Yeah, no kidding. I was not this pi$$ed off until 3 months of Plan A got me nowhere as far as SF. Now it's just ridiculous. I mean, come ON. No SF for six months now after the A, and months before as well? I am tired of masturbation and her incessant need to distract herself from sex - I am here at work tonight because I couldn't face sleeping with her platonically again tonight, and I did NOT want to start a fight or confrontation when she was already in bed. She has said that she knows it hurts my feelings and she will try to be more affectionate, but we sat there again on our respective sides of the bed and watched a few hours TV this evening and no move on her part to hold my hand or ANYTHING. I will NOT make the first move at this point - my self esteem can't handle it. I dare not even bring up the subject, for fear she will ridicule me, calling me selfish and telling me I just want f*cked and all I'm worried about is that little thingie between my legs, bla bla bla. Yeah, well, if it goes much longer, I will not give a sh1t anymore. What was that thing Dr. Harley said about the Plan A? -- If you give it some time and the WS does not make definite changes, the BS will have no more love left to give. I am getting to that page in my heart soon. It will make me so sad - I really thought this was going to or at least had a chance to work out. I am thinking about setting a date for D-Day plus one year (17 JUL) this coming summer. I don't want to put any specific ultimatums up here, like "no sex by then and I am outta here" type of crap. But I think it would be as good a date as any for a re-evaluation. I know there is more to life than sex but COME THE [censored] ON. I was always a "sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll" type guy. She took the rock 'n' roll away by alienating the guys in my band. The drugs went bye-bye over the years. So the only physical pleasure left to me is sex. Now she expects me to just keep on keepin' on. Whatever. I'll stick it out and be the hero, and I'm here to vent so I can keep my damned mouth shut sometimes.

Good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do discuss the SF issue within the safety of your MC office.

Are you sure there is NC? Are you really sure?

1. She does not leave house and disappear.
2. She has been bringing home her time cards.
3. She eats lunch w/ me every day.
4. I have access to her cell phone records.
5. I take her to and from work.
6. Has only gone to (supposedly) work-related functions outside house like 4-6 times since D-Day - progress meetings and luncheons for employees leaving and such. Does not put make-up on or get extra "gussied-up" for these events either.
7. Caught her going to bar one time by finding a receipt for $4.50 for one white russian after work on a Friday back in I think September [big effin deal - as she pointed out, if she was there with a man do you think she woulda bought the drink herself?].
8. Caught her lying on 1-2 minor things (she used work credit card to buy a few things - easter basket for baby and internet phone for our house).

Have not seen anything obvious. Of course, she could be skipping out on work or seeing somebody at work, or calling OM on work land-line or even have another cell phone that I don't have access to, or lying to me about the work functions, or whatever -- there are a million ways to get around detection and believe me, I am ultra-paranoid about it. Most of our fights now seem to stem from my insecurity and suspicion. I am trying to drop it and just observe her but we have not been able to afford gas or co-pay for my IC in a few weeks, so I'm wired real tight again, and of course when I am upset she can feel it and then she questions me on it and then when I tell her I am uptight about it, so then it's like "[Ding, Ding] -- Round #4586!!!"

Oh and BTW still no SF - 9 months after D-day.

DG, I often wonder how you are. Are you still in MC? Tell what you and your W have done to heal. What books have you both read, EN questionaire, exercises etc..

What changes have you made permanently in you that contributed to the state of the marriage? Stick around if you can. Anyway you can get your W to post here?

Changes:
1. Still taking responsibility for work around house, bills, baby.
2. Still not drinking.

Failures:
1. Still bring up affair when upset.
2. Can't seem to have genuine affection for her, or she perceives it as fake even when it feels right to me.
3. Majorly pissed about the no SF thing and can not hide it and do not communicate it correctly.

She keeps saying that she won't have sex with me when she doesn't like me or feels no emotional connection. So I try to be nice but then she says all I want is sex and it disgusts her and she doesn't love me anymore and wishes I would die and coming home was a mistake and that I am still the same [censored] and trying to control her and on and on.

I'm ready to say F it and move on. I don't know if I should file for custody of daughter or let her have it. We are both so messed up in the head I don't think the baby belongs with either of us.

We are still going to Marriage Counseling once every two weeks (three weeks this time because counselor on vacation). But of course she says she hates it and is only doing it for me and I forced her into it and bla bla bla. More "control". She will not read any books or do questionnaires or any of that stuff - because it's what I am using or would use to "control" her.

I cannot stop Love-Busting and I know that her Love Bank is empty because of it. I keep making these little teeny deposits but then a few days without sex go by and I get angry, frustrated, disappointed, et cetera and I can NOT hold this sh1t in anymore.

Yesterday was her birthday and it was going well - I sent her chocolates at work and took her out to dinner at a real restaurant last night. Then we get home and her mom calls her and I overhear her trash-talking me to her mom and confronted her about it - so of course I was accused of invading her "privacy" and more "control". I understand the need to vent, but it needs to be with an objective third party like a shrink, not with family members. What upset me most is that she was telling her mom all the bad stuff I've done in frustration since the affair but not about the affair itself. When I do talk about the affair to a few people, I always wind up defending her and pointing out that I had some contribution to the state of things that led up to the affair.

So then I "browbeat" her for two hours last night and "ruined" her birthday, just like I "ruin" everything else. I was in tears at bedtime and she offered to hold me and even cuddled with me this morning, but then just before she got up to pee she hauled off and punched me in the spine. OK, so I'm not a saint and I've gotten rough with her before, so no big deal. She has been hitting me a lot lately, whenever I try to get her to open up (which she calls "attacking" her).

I am starting to think that she is or both of us are sociopaths and unable to have a reciprocating relationship. This lack of commitment on her part and lack of accountability for her actions has me so far beyond p1ssed that it isn't even funny. She still blames affair on me - she even said it in MC session - counselor was visibly upset with her for that, actually raised his voice to her and told her that I mighta helped build, load, and [censored] the gun, but she pulled the trigger and it is not fair to blame me for it. I was like "you GO, boy" and put my head down and did not interfere. She didn't buy it.

Things she says when p1ssed:
1. You didn't care about me until you thought you were gonna lose me.
2. You just wanna control everything I do or say and everywhere I go.
3. I stopped loving you a long time ago.
4. I don't even like you.
5. All you're worried about is getting your little d1ck wet.
6. You disgust me.
7. I want a Divorce.
8. Why don't you kill yourself?
9. I wish you would just die.
10. I just wanna punch/stab/kick you in the head/chest until you're dead.
11. If I really liked you do you think I woulda f*cked the OM?
12. Why can't you see that we're not good together?
13. I'm never gonna [censored] you ever again.
14. Get a better job (more $$$) or I'm outta here.
15. Loser!

So, that's where we are now.

Plz post.

She still sounds so fogged up but I know you are pretty certain NC is in place. I am worried what this environment is doing to the baby. Ok, my suggestions:

1. Call the Harley's and counsel at least once with them. Be very honest with them about the entire sit including your contributions.

2. Get and read the book Love Busters by Harley. No more LB's. Even if you have to bite through your tongue. Remember, you are doing this for your daughter.
3. Start documenting the times she hits you in case you need to go for custody.

Another BTW - our 3rd marriage anniversary is coming up on next Wed 03 MAY - how should I handle this?

Also, I made appt for Mon 01 May to go back to my IC, whom I haven't been to see in a few weeks 'cause of lack of cash.

Obviously I still need to vent and probably will for the rest of my life. This whole experience has soured me and I don't even like me anymore.

DG, I sooo understand not liking yourself. I became an angry, cursing wreck and could not seem to control myself. I hated myself at times. You need to get ~you~ under control. Please for the sake of your DD. Glad you are going back to IC. Any chance you could use a credit card and call the Harleys to get their advice? Are you exercising? Something constructive to put your energy toward would help.

As for your anniversary, go ahead and handle it the way you think your W would want.

FF, do you mean for me to call Harley's alone or with wifey?

FF, what do you mean by documenting when she hits me - just write it down? - how does that help? - it's not proof - she can always say I'm lying.

Also, which version of Love Busters do I buy? - there are two different covers and a revised edition.

OK so it's been a while since I came on here.

I guess I gave up.

Now I am a dirtbag. I went online and found somebody for myself last summer and was involved with her for three months. I felt justified because of no SF with wife. One day I woke up and realized I wasn't doing myself any favors by continuing that behaviour. It was nice to get some SF, but this woman and I obviously were just in it for the SF and maybe a little companionship.

Oh yeah, and I got violent with wifey a few times because my family doctor listened to my story and on the basis of a 20 minute appointment, put me on Zoloft. BIG MISTAKE!!! Turns out I have bipolar tendencies and the Zoloft drove me right over the edge with frantic behaviour and obsessive thinking and I just wouldn't give wifey any space and she kept pushing me away and I lost my temper a few times. Then when I finally went to the shrink and she referred me to a psychiatrist and they put me on Depakote, I was OK. Then I lost my job and benefits, couldn't afford $350 a month for the pills, and that's when I went online looking for SF.

Now I am living at my sister's, the wife has a PFA on me, the hearing is set for 23 JUL. I have not been violent now since '06, probably like a year and a half or something like that.

I don't know what to do. I keep calling her and swinging from crying and begging to come home and promising the world, to nastiness and demanding a divorce.

I have a job now and benefits start 01 AUG; I don't know if I should wait until then to get back on Depakote to control my moods because of the "pre-existing" condition crap, or just go now and beg the money off my parents for the meds, and the insurance be d*mned.

This whole thing started lately 'cause I checked the phone bill and noticed a number I didn't recognize back in mid-June, asked her about it, and she refused to tell me the guys name or where he works or lives. When I asked her why she was hiding it, her response was "because I knew you'd flip out". When I pointed out that hiding it and inevitable later discovery would make it worse, she stated "I don't care". So I started up the detective routine again, which really p1ssed her right off. She claims nothing happened, they just smoked cigs together at break time (they work nearby each other), and walked around at lunch. She claims NC now for a few weeks. When I wouldn't stop questioning her about it and checking her phone and purse and stuff, she asked for a two-week separation. I stayed away for a week, but couldn't handle it anymore and went home the second week and started the questioning again. So she went to Domestic Violence Legal Counseling and got a PFA based on stuff that happened over a year ago and the recent phone calls and questioning (she calls it "brow-beating" and "grilling").

Wife has registered on a singles website. This really shocked me as I thought she was better than that. She has also started to dress nicer for work and exercise by walking. This, coupled with the hidden phone calls and refusal to come clean, has me so jacked up and worried and frantic.

Wife has asked for MC now. I'm not sure I want to, but I am going to give it a shot. I figure just 'cause she quit MC before on me, that's no reason to do it back to her. I think revenge is the worst motive to do anything. I'm pretty sure she just wants to go off on me about my behaviour, but hey, I probably deserve it.

Really I just want my life back. I can't keep living at my sister's house with her and her hubby and their daughter. I love my family, but I am not perfect like they are, and I feel bad for my brother-in-law; who the he11 wants their loser brother-in-law living with them?

I hope the MC we get has LOTS of experience, cuz we have SO many issues.

So tonite I asked if I could come over and mow the lawn for her and see my daughter, and she agreed. When I got there I could not stop myself from checking her phone log (ridiculous, 'cause I can get the same info online the next day), and I had kind of an attitude 'cause when I pulled in, the recycling bin was still out from three days ago and she doesn't take the dog out to his normal area, she just let him defecate right out side the back door, right where my daughter plays. So she started with the "I hate you" and "I wish I never married you" routine. I just want to crawl in a hole and die.

She has me dead to rights 'cause last Friday I drove by and the lights were on at 3 AM. So I called her and got "Oh, I'm just cleaning the house and doing laundry", which was out of character - she normally goes to bed early (like 10 or 11 o'clock). So I went back and came in through the window and searched the house. I was really convinced there was someone there. So, if she wants to, she could have me locked up 'cause I really did violate the PFA. I can't get my own place because the PFA states I must support them financially, even though I can't live in MY OWN HOUSE.

I am running out of options here and sliding into despair and resentment, every time we talk it gets embroiled and emotional and neither one of us knows when to knock it off.

HELP!