"If they do it with you, they'll do it to you" is a common belief among most of us here. My question is how is it any different than "if they do it to you once, they'll do it again." I guess the reason for my question is that I am struggling with believing that my WW won't do this to me again. I want more than anything to believe it won't happen, but I don't see much difference between my correlation and the common accepted ideology.

Me-BH-33
Her WW-34
Married 11 years
1 son 1 daughter
1st D-Day 10/04
2nd and real D-Day 03/05
3rd and hopefully final D-Day 7/05

To me, two affair partners are both morally lacking. With a WS and BS, one still has anchors to the marriage and the right moral decisions concerning that marriage.

The two affair partners can never look at each other and demand fidelity because they are both infidels.

The BS and WS have a history...and have the BS with which to base a future relationship on.

Ultimately, you never know if the WS will go back to cheating. They may be so morally lacking that they just continue. But a relationship that has no morally upstanding people in it, cannot enforce the rules or boundaries.

In His arms.

I would add to that that in a truly recovered marriage, the WS has at least made a committment to change. This means that they have at least admitted being wrong and are trying to correct things.

In an affair relationship, the solution to the problem was to go find someone else. Since they stayed in that relationship, chances are a lot greater that the WS sees cheating as a legitimate way to address problems.

Well, I think the thing to do is figure out together why she cheated in the first place.

I don't buy the MB explanation that something was always missing in the marriage. That is too simplistic. Often, the straying is a result of self-esteem issues, ways we have learned to protect ourselves, a reaction from a recent loss, FOO things, etc.

And you are absolutely right - if the reasons for the affair are not addressed, it is more likely that it will happen again.

“I don't buy the MB explanation that something was always missing in the marriage.”

I agree.

There is always something missing in every marriage. There is always something missing, except in perhaps the most superficial, from one standpoint or another in every relationship.

It has been written before on MB that the EN approach is scaffolding for recovery more than anything else.

Every sincere FWS that posts here writes that they had to find out something about themselves before they could say another A was impossible. They almost always in the final analyses agree ENs were a minor factor. A temporary justification more than anything else.

There are some of us who found that something within us long before any opportunity for an A raised its ugly head. This is why we didn’t have an A even though just as many, if not more, ENs were missing for us at the same time and in the same marriage.

IMHO, the missing EN approach is a really good way for both the BS and the WS to save some face, for the lack of a better word, while giving them time to find the real reasons for their behaviors.

Good point, Aphelion. I get sooooo tired of the old missing EN's rhetoric.

I prefer the Calder's "Torn Asunder", which speaks about "the message of the affair". Much more true to life.

OTOH, I do believe the negative effects of LBs and DJs are a major factor in driving a WS farther away than they already may have a tendency to be.

The problem being, as the WS slides into an A, or jumps feet first as in my FWW case, it is impossible for a normal human being (read BS) to not LB and DJ on occasion.

And these LBs and DJs, as rare as they may be, become a focus for the WS to use in re-writing history. That's the way it transpired in our case any way. The ratio of LBs and DJs between FWW and I were probably a thousand to one during her LTA. Yet she can only remember mine. LOL

Thank you all for the responses. I guess that is what I am struggling with is whether she has truly figured out "why" she did this. She is acting remorseful and has read Surviving an Affair, but I am still not seeing the why. Yes, EN's weren't always being met, but I also don't believe that it is the only reason. I agree that Self-Esteem issues also played a major role in this. I don't know that I can always make her feel the way another OM can. The excitement, newness, exhilaration of finding someone new is something that I will never be able to provide, no matter how much time I put into meeting EN's and filling her love bank. I just can't decide if this is going to work, especially coupled with the fact that she still continues to be untruthful about many things regarding the A.

Me-BH-33
Her WW-34
Married 11 years
1 son 1 daughter
1st D-Day 10/04
2nd and real D-Day 03/05
3rd and hopefully final D-Day 7/05

Sweetie - I would get the Tom Calder book, and see if the two of you can figure out the "message of the affair". It would be very helpful. I had the book, but gave it to WH, or I would list some of the "messages". Sometimes they have very little to do with the marriage. It surprised me.

One month since third and hopefully final D-Day?

You have barely pulled yourself out of the pool. You are still dripping wet.

My first advice, such as it is, would be to assume contact continues and thus the EA at the very least continues. That means you cannot meet her ENs and her LB/DJ detector is on high gain. She is not stepping up to withdrawal. So she is not making any progress in searching for any whys or wherefores at all.

As far as acting remorseful – at this time take it with grain of salt. WS are consummate role players. The A itself is a role. The vast majority of WS act in whatever way is required as circumstances arise.

IMO, your best current approach is to continue to Plan A with a vengeance so you can go into a Plan B that has a real effect on WW.

With prayers,

I feel about 95% certain that NC has been going now for a little over 3 weeks. I am trying my best to continue with plan A, however, I seem to be shutting down emotionally quite a bit. I am still being very nice and doing my best to meet all EN's, but I can feel myself being distant, and quite frankly, a little disillusioned as to whether this is a M that I want to be in. I certainly didn't expect myself to be feeling this way, and I feel guilty about it, but it's how I'm feeling, and she is picking up on this fact. Surprisingly it seems to be only strengthening her resolve on making this work. She seems to be saying all the right things, I just don't know anymore.

Me-BH-33
Her WW-34
Married 11 years
1 son 1 daughter
1st D-Day 10/04
2nd and real D-Day 03/05
3rd and hopefully final D-Day 7/05

OK, then allow her do some of the heavy lifing for a while. It will be good for her.

Do the EN questionare together, if you haven't already, so you both know where to focus your efforts in the near term. Her to keep you interested. You to conserve your fading resolve.

Also, avoiding LBs and DJs is critical at all times. Thsi is very hard for the BS in general, but it pays off by providing a clearer view of your options. Avoding LBs and DJs throws up less emotional dust in the air, so to speak.

With prayers,

I am struggling with the same question. My WW, although still in a bit of a fog, is trying hard to sort things out within herself and with our marriage. She wants to work it out. I wanted to as well, right from day 1 of DD... BUT... now I'm wondering what the future will be. Our MC said to me on the first session... "If I was a perfect husband, could I have guaranteed that the A would not have happened? If I stay with my Wife, can I guarantee that this won't happen again?" The answer is no to both. Every BS has to make a decision based upon whether he/she is able to move forward with unconditional love and acceptance... being married because you choose to not because you are afraid of the alternative or dependent on your spouse. Yes it would hurt if it happens again, but your choice to stay has to be independent upon whether or not you can be alone.
Faith in God and in yourself must come first. If that is there and you still choose to risk loving your WS, then that is all any of us can do. Life is a risk... we just need to choose which risks are worth taking. I believe my wife is worth the risk, hopefully you can say the same about your WS.

Shaden

Thanks for the response Shaden. You are absolutely correct when you say that "every BS has to make a decision based upon whether he/she is able to move forward with unconditional love and acceptance..." This is basically the crux of the problem that I am dealing with internally. I do love my WW now more than I ever have. However, I am also feeling more pain and resentment because of my WW than I ever could have imagined. It feels like an internal tug-of-war as to whether I can truly commit myself to somebody that has chosen to hurt me so bad yet has also been the best thing that has ever happened to me. I am certain that these feelings are very common amongst BS's, but it doesn't seem to change the fact that I am having this internal struggle. Of course my WW continues to not open up completely with me regarding the A, which I believe is leading me to question whether or not we can really have an open and honest relationship, but she has made big strides and I am more hopeful now than I have ever been since DD.

Me-BH-33
Her WW-34
Married 11 years
1 son 1 daughter
1st D-Day 10/04
2nd and real D-Day 03/05
3rd and hopefully final D-Day 7/05

The important thing is that "she has made big strides". The changes and healing required for both of you will take time. I want everything to be fixed immediately with my marriage as well, but that is like allowing a bone to heal wrong... the only way to fix it then is to re-break it... which I don't think you want.

One thought that I hold onto when I feel the way you are... ("how can I truly commit myself to somebody that has chosen to hurt me so bad...") is I remind myself that the A that happened and the hurt that was caused is not "who my wife is... but something she has done." I don't know if I"ll ever understand the depth of emotion (or lack of emotion) that caused my W to make the decision to have an affair, and I know that our relationship will always be changed because of it... but I also believe that many things will be better in the future because of it. We all make mistakes and do things that hurt those we love, the unfortunate thing about an affair is that the consequences that go with it are so huge.
Don't ignore the pain because healing has to happen, but also focus on the good things about her and the positive consequences that can come from this. Find out the things about yourself that can be changed or improved. Be prepared to be surprised about what you find. With help from our MC, I found out that I was actually giving too much to my wife and all my focus was on her... probably due to fear of losing her. She felt that she didn't know the true me... that I was too nice and holding back my emotions and passion and therefore the intimacy was missing. There's a lot more to it than just this, but finding out that I was giving too much was a huge surprise to me. These are the challenges in life that will break us or make us into the person God meant for us to be.

Your struggle is normal. I"m having it as well. Don't give up hope.

Shaden

I do try and focus on the fact that we have made big strides, and I also realize that I am a very impatient person. Following Dr. Harley's principles has done wonders in achieving these strides. However, considering the severity of the circumstances I would think that if she truly is remorseful and wanting to save our M(which she claims to be), then she would be doing absolutely everything I ask for to make things right. In other words, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Instead she continues to try and deceive and make things look better than they were. I do like your quote that you try to think of your W's A as not "who my W is....but something she has done." I have also tried to think of my situation and my W in the same light. The problem I am wrestling with is the fact that I am having a hard time believing that it's not "who she is." She chose to make this decision knowing full well the pain and hurt that it could cause to myself, our children, families, and friends, therefore, I can't seem to get over the fact that if she was able to make that decision and continue with the lies and deceit for over a year, then that is a major, major, major part of "Her." Still very, very, very confused and beginning to become more and more disillusioned to whether making this work is worth it, but trying to stay strong.

Me-BH-33
Her WW-34
Married 11 years
1 son 1 daughter
1st D-Day 10/04
2nd and real D-Day 03/05
3rd and hopefully final D-Day 7/05

The two affair partners can never look at each other and demand fidelity because they are both infidels.

I love that phrase MM. I'm LOL at my desk.

Can I say this to my wife when I LB her?