please clarify "DJ"? I am not familiar with that acronym as of yet....

Oh wow, TD, I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

I haven't caught up on your thread yet, but ouch, that had to hurt. You are absolutely right to have expected that if the OM somehow called your wife, the conversation should have been a few seconds of "don't ever contact me again" and that's it, if not an immediate hangup. That's what no contact means. And that's not what happened -- ouch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

DJ--Disrespectful Judgment.

My working definition:

An assumption you make about your spouse that you use to make decisions that disrespect and short-change your spouse.

Dr. Harley's definition:

An LB that qualifies as marital abuse and is "Attempt to 'straighten out' your spouse's attitudes, beliefs, and behavior by trying to impose your way of thinking through lecture, ridicule, threats, or other forceful means."

~ZP

Disrespectful Judgement.

This is the last time I will post on this thread out of respect to my husband, and I do not even know if I will post on this board again. First, we do not have caller ID, so I did not know it was OM calling until I picked up the phone. Second, being able to tell OM about my desire to save my marriage did offer my some closure that had not been there before, and was causing me a great deal of emotional distress. I did not feel like a got a "fix", I felt like I did something I needed to do, in the way I needed to do it. I have a Christian friend who is highly committed to her marriage and to God, and she herself had an affair few years ago and went through the trauma of it all. When I spoke to her last week about how I was feeling, she said she felt I needed closure and that is what she had to do to begin to move past her affair. She suggested I call OM, and she would be there when I did. I held off on calling him, and then he called me. I talked highly of my H during the whole conversation with him, and about my committment to try to save my marriage. Now I read these threads and people are posting about how any contact puts you right back at day one, which is not how I felt until I read that, and it put that thought into my head. People posting that withdrawal lasts a certain amount of time, and them more people posting that it lasts even longer. Again, I felt up until my H started saying he was going to call OM that I had made huge progress in the "withdrawal " process, but with his reaction, and then reading all these posts, puts these thoughts in my head that had not been there before, and I fear they'll become self-fulfilling prophecies. All these posts have served is to further depress my H and myself, and I do not feel they have been helpful at all. Not all of them, some have been very helpful, but some have just been purely negative and left us feeling as such.

TD,

How much of the Harley concepts (website or books) have you read?

I recommend starting with Surviving an Affair (SAA) for BOTH of you. You both definitely need to read Love Busters if you haven't. I say LB first because you need to eliminate the love busters from your marriage before need-meeting will be much of a benefit, although you can still work on meeting each other's needs while eliminating LBs.

SAA will detail Harley's plan for overcoming this affair.

It begins with absolutely, unequivocally NO CONTACT! There is to be absolutely NO CONTACT between the OM and yourself unless it is the NC letter from your wife, and your exposure letters to OM, OMW, and whoever you think will help your wife deal with her infidelity. I think that MF4M can help BT deal with those withdrawal feelings, but definitely not you, TD. I don't know MF4M's husband's name, but he can help you. I do not believe your marriage could stand caring concern from OS counsel.

No Contact Letter
Exposure Letter.

These are just about necessary. Please do them.

~ZP

TD, do you have the book, Love Busters?

I don't know if you caught on your other thread that went foom, but I talked about how you can't fix your own abusive behaviors (Dr. Harley defines AOs/Angry Outbursts, SDs/Selfish Demands, and DJs/Disrespectful Judgements as abusive) without also fixing your boundaries. Well, you can, but you're likely to drive yourself nuts in the process by letting others LB you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Get the book Love Busters right away if you don't have it. It will give you a vocabulary both for talking about your own behavior and for working out setting boundaries to protect yourself from hurtful behaviors from your wife. It's a marvelously helpful book.

BT,

Surgical extraction is very painful. But it's necessary. Your marriage is sick. No, I don't mean twisted and weird and totally out of the realm of reality. I mean, it is wounded, hurt. It needs an extraction.

What needs to be extracted is all the painful stuff you and TD have done to each other. It isn't fun, but it must be done, like surgery to remove a bad tooth.

If you want that marriage that is better than you could have imagined, it's necessary to go through this. TD already said that he felt bad about your convo. No one here made him feel that way. Even YOU didn't MAKE him feel bad. But he feels bad all the same.

Let him feel bad that you had contact. It hurt him. It's HIS feelings. Now, he needs to learn to deal with them. If you don't want him to hurt like that anymore, than your behavior needs to change accordingly.

~ZP

bt - I am a FWW and have been exactly where you are now. You want to do the right thing and let OM down easy, you don't want to cause his family anymore pain - I get all that. But as much as you THINK you are doing the right thing you aren't. His wife is probably on the brink of divorce because she FEELS something is going on and doesn't know what to do. If she KNEW what was happening, then she would have something to work with, and if your OM was truly remorseful to his wife- they CAN work things out. Also - by letting your OM down the way you did - you leave the door open for those - how are you doing moments. How do I know? I did THE exact same thing as you at first...talked to the OM myself, told him it was over, that I wanted my H, that he sould work on his, made the deal not to tell his wife...but over the next 4-5 weeks he occassionally dropped the, I know I am not supposed to contact you, but how are ya emails.

Eventually H and I had to write a harsh NC letter, and we told his wife so she had the chance to work on her marriage with ALL the facts. You are depriving her of that chance by assuming she wants a divorce...but in reality, you only really know OMs side of things...You and H should phone her and tell her TOGETHER and you should write a NC letter and have your H read it and mail it. Your concern of OM and his W shouldn't matter - your concern for YOUR marriage and YOUR H should be the priority.

Your H's motives are probably not to get back at OM, but possibly out of sympathy for not wanting OMW to continue feeling the way he has felt up until your D-day.

By not telling OMW you are actually causing her more pain, as most BS's sense something is happening and live in a crazy state of fighting between their gut and reality, etc. The truth will hurt her yes, but she can make a decision with ALL knowledge and she deserves this.

I am glad you are here BT, and I hope we can help you on this journey - as many of us are FWW and know exactly where you are at and what you need to do.

BT,

The advice listed here is based on known facts of affairs and their characteristics. Sure, each person and marriage is a little different. But just liek a liver in one person is prety much the same as a liver in the next person, affairs...their causes...and how they proceed and end...are pretty much the same.

I believe that you truly want your marriage to work. I think you are scared, as you have admitted. I think your husband is scared too. But I also believe deep down that he understands that you do want this marriage.


But besides counseling, the first major thing you both need to understand is that it is YOUR job to protect your spouse from the baggage you talked about. BT, it is your job to make your husband feel safe. If he doesnt feel safe, you MUST do everything possible to find a way to make him safe. These are open owunds we are talking about here. You must do whatever it takes in order to help him heal the wounds you caused.

And the same goes for your husband with the wounds he caused.

You two must protect your spouse from yourself!! If that means going the extra mile, then you MUST do it.

That means, BT, that you MUST send a NC letter to OM and NEVER, EVER contact him again. EVER! He is not your responsibility. Nor is his family. Any concern, contact, etc will only hurt the OM, hurt his family, as well as hurt your own.

So many BSs and WSs come on here and think their situation is so unique. And sure, the dress on the outside may have a different print on it. But the body underneath is human....everytime. And so it goes for affairs. They are different...but remarkably the same. Both of you must find a way to heal from this. And Dr. Harley has devised a way to do that.

These peopel are right, though. Contact with the OM is disrespect to your husband. As is written in the Bible, men and women are different. Women need to be loved. Men, on the other hand, dont need love. We want it, we will accept it gladly. But we dont NEED it. What we need is your respect. We need you to respect us, to look at us in a way that says that you are proud to be with us.

When you disrespect us thru an affair, it causes us to go to fight or flight. We MUST do something about it. When you contact the OM or the window is left open that he could contact you, your husband is feeling disrespected. And remember what I said above? It is your job to make sure he doesnt feel that way...even if it isnt fair. Just as it is his job to love you in a way that you feel loved...even when he isnt feeling it.

I do not know what kind of counselor you are headed to, but I can suggest Steve Harley. If you can do it, Steve is not about sitting around listenign to who-did-what-to-whom. He is about a plan. A plan for recovery. A plan that takes into account what has happened, and the characteristics in affairs. You leave feeling empowered, not stuck with more questions.

So, I hope this counselor will do this for you. As JustLearning said to me when my wife and I went into recovery...seek professional help because recovery is NOT for amateurs. And he was so right.

But, please understand that your husband's hurt has been caused by you. it is not irrational fear, but fear based on some very real events. It is your job to be vigilent and make sure you do the things that will protect him from these triggers. Just as he must do the same for you.

I hope this has helped.

In His arms.

Actually my dear you are responding exactly right now the way MOST of us FWS's have all responded and learned that it leads to more problems down the road. I hate to break it to you - but your whole story is so familiar as it sounds like mine, it sounds like many other FWW's....



Why because it puts stress on you? Because it isn't going the way you want or need it to go. You had an affair. You have not really owned up to it yet, as you say it's a horrible thing to do, but has it sunk in what you risked and why you really did it? Deep soul searching. It will come. This is no longer about you at the moment, the A was about you.



Yes they are there, and they will need to be addressed, but you threw and A into the mix, and now those issues may have to wait as your H has time to heal and get in a place where he can make the changes. Had you not had the affair, it could have possibly been about you and the changes your H has to make. You sound just like I did, just like Michdadwife currently does - your situation isn't as unique as you would like it to be.

I know that you are feeling alot of hurt right now, and alot of resentment still towards your H - this is normal...but the hurt your H is now going through is unbelievable. You didn't give him the chance to make those changes - you could have Plan A or Plan B'd him (even though he wasn't having an A) to try to get him to change, but you went to someone else. He needs to process that, deal with that and then work on changing. And you yourself have alot of changes to make now too. You are now in your H's eyes, untrustworthy, unloyal, selfish, manipulative...what are you going to do to change that - because right now those are all true - but that probably isn't the REAL you. I know those things weren't the real me - but they sure were me during my A.



I don't doubt that you are doing the best you can. The problem is, is that the advice we are giving you isn't because we make it up off the top of our heads, it's because we have BEEN there. I believe you are being sincere, but you are still too close to your A, that you still aren't seeing the whole picture clearly - but I know that took me months, and it will take you months.

Just listen to what alot of these folks are saying - lots of us aren't just the BS's like your H, many of us have been in the SAME spot as you, feeling the same feelings, saying the same things.

I see alot of hope for you guys, but it's going to be a very long road. May GOd bless.

Unfortunately I have depressing, bad news.

Actually you have good news...if and when you choose to view it that way....
then you will be better able to traverse the waters of recovery......

and see the bigger picture of what the goals are and not microscopic pins and needles that come your way and are made in to large open wounds....

lets agree on some things...

when we can view our WS by stepping back and realizing that even though their actions are without doubt terroristic...
they are, (were) we must remember terroristic to all

meaning to the spouse
the OP
and themselves...

they create huge universes of compartalmentalizing..cover up...and the rewriting of history...

all of it becomes jumbled and confusing...till they don't know which way is up ....and which way is right...

they are torn and tortured souls...who inflict great pain...

but if the BS believes enough in the core person who is capable of changing...then they take on a huge burdon of shouldering pain and helping the WS climb out of the muck in which they are drowning....

you wife had the opportunity to just revert to old patterns and lie to you...

she could have lied about contact
she could have lied about what was said...

I would bet that at one time in the recent past she might have chosen to do just that...

yet here...last night she offers you the gift of honesty...
in ways that may be the first of many honest moments...

and so therefor it is very important to focus on what you do with her gift of honesty....
tired dad....

you have to look long and hard how you handle these fragile moments...and do what you can to make it safe for her...otherwise she will do what ALL of us do to survive no matter who we are BS or WS...retreat and not do THAT again....

loving loving loving must be the road to recovery...

It takes a long time to build walls that justify and enable an affair...and BS often can't understand why upon a WS agreement to recover or whatever.....why these walls don't come crumbling down....and instant villicfication of the OP takes place...

the reason is because it never really is about the OP...no matter who or what the OP is or isnn't it is still the WS who is responsible for their role...and actions..and villifying the OP is just villifying the WS...they are one in the same...

friend or foe???

when the BS villifies the OP they equally villify the WS..
which is not to say that the OP should be a good friend and seen as such...
but BS need to know all evil spoken about the OP sticks the same to WS....

difficult difficult terrain..
and blessed both are the WS and BS that work together through all this mess.....

I have told her multiple times a day that I love her dearly, that I want more than anything for our M to make it. I rarely get this from her. I show her constant affection, because I want to. She shows me SOME affection, but not a great deal.

quit telling her this..it is difficult to hear and understand....
the meaning of the words of love spoken are so lost right now....

the words I love you...are twisted and manipulated 1000000 times a day on all three sides of the triangle...that it should be for a temporary time a buzz word not to be used by anyone unless relating to a chocolate ingrediant...

this is not to villify any of you...
this is to try for you to step back and see the bigger picture...

people that thought plan A was hard...or think it is..
just wait for recovery...

it's a long process....
long long long...
and early days of recovery should not be filled with the love word...

recovery is a process of learning NEW things...
new ways to relate
new ways to communicate
new ways to communicate love and nurturing....

recovery is NOT about the OP....

ARK

Here is what I said to you before, which I hope you read. In case you missed it, I'll highlight a couple of phrases in red, I hope you find them useful.

I am very skeptical of her sincerity and miraculous recovery. My own cynical outlook (borne out by observations on this board and my own experience with my ex) is that your W's initial pulling closer to you was caused by the OM suddenly disappearing. So to her, you became the one straw she was going to clutch to.

Now that she has had some time to think about it, she is realizing that you are not the OM, and she is stuck in "neither here nor there" land... She lost the OM (supposedly), but she is not sure she wants you. She is petrified of ending up all alone - that is common for someone who goes pre-discovery (i.e. having TWO people fill their needs) to post discovery (i.e. OP disappearing and spouse being hurt, to say the least).

This is all normal, and anyone who told you that withdrawal lasts two weeks is overly optimistic IMO. The first two weeks are, at best, chaos, before the initial dust settles. During that time, she may get close to you (for emotional support), push you away, and anything in between. Do not try to read her or understand her in this time. And do not trust a word she says - even if she does not lie to you, she has no idea what she really wants.

Assuming she is truly totally done with OM (and BTW, I would never assume that, and [color:"red"]I would fully expect that within a few days they'll find a way to establish some off-the-record communications [/color] ) withdrawal will last for many weeks or months. She will need to grieve over the loss of her perfect fantasy, and then, assuming you are the "model husband", she will need time to trust you to be able to meet her ENs. Don't make the mistake of hoping to be able to count on her for loving you or meeting your ENs in this time. She may do this occasionally, but it will be punctuated by relapses into nastiness and coldness.

My advice is to continue trying to improve yourself, but without asking for support from her. Be there to hold her when needed, cry with her when needed, etc, but let her deal with her own withdrawal. [color:"red"] In the end, it will be her decision of what she wants, and the best you can do is be the best you can be. [/color]

In any case, prepare for a rollercoaster of many weeks, and do not try to question things on a day by day basis.

[color:"red"] I highlighted the second part because if you disregard her pleas to not call the OM, you are pushing her towards him. If that is what you want, go for it. But if you want to save your marriage, then you would be better off showing her that you are the loving and supportive husband that she needs. [/color]

AGG

Breaking Thread--

My huge recommendation to you is to TELL THE TRUTH
Do what you have to do in order to do so.
Go to a place where you can be honest.
Do not continue to hide in the A and in that "high"
I see so much of me in you--I don't want you to make the mistakes I made. With NC, you will be depressed and angry, esp at your H, but find a place to go with those feelings. If you need a friend, let me know. Right now you don't nec want to do it for your M or your H, BUT DO IT FOR YOU AND THE KIND OF PERSON YOU WANT TO BE

Tired,

My marriage recovery is a ahead of you and your wife. When I read your post yesterday I though I had written it. My wife and I have experienced all the things you wrote about. For me, I was looking for small improvements in those very early days. Sometimes you will see significant improvement some days backpedaling. The indicator is the trend, is it getting better or worse. I would suggest your situation is getting better as your wife did admit there was contact. You know that this would not have happened a few short weeks ago. Praise her for the positive, it will go much further than critizing the negative.
Your wife seems to be taking responsibility for the affair as she should. I am sure she is experiencing a great deal of pain over what has happened. Remember, she is responsible for taking the affair road as a solution to your maritial problems, but you also have a responsibility for the state of the marriage when the affair started. We BS's have a tendency to play the riteous role regarding the affair. You need to leave the riteous role behind and start working with her as a teammate not an opponent. You need to start looking at yourself and working on the things that got the marriage offtrack before the affair. Start taking responsibility for those things and let her know that you have taken this responsibility. My recovery has made significant progress since I have admitted my role in the martial problem. Actually, my admitting my responsitility for the martial problems ended all contact with OM. Your wife wants to know that your marriage will be improved in the future compared to what it was in the past.

She has posted here. Her doing this is not the action of a WS that does not want to save the marriage. Sure she should have said little or nothing to the OM but I suspect she was not prepared for that phone call. You two should discuss this contact together. Not a wrong or right discussion but a discussion regarding saving your marriage and what to do in the event he contacts her again. Do not let your ego get in the way, open your heart and mind and carry her for awhile. She needs your help as much as you need hers. Blame has to be eliminated from your discussions and responsibility for the state of your marriage pre-affair needs to be taken by both. This is what you both will be able to agree to and work on together.

Dorry, excellent post! BT...Dorry is right. Her situation was nearly identical to yours. And what she and her husband had to go thru will be what you two have to go thru.

Listen to her, because she is you. She has lived what you are going thru.

TD, this all was for you too. You wil have to begin to process the affair, to have the counselor help you move thru it. Only then will you be able to offer the love that your wife needs.

Both of you two need to do one more thing, okay? And that is to cut each other a break. This is hard. It is going to be hard for a while longer. So, when one of you has a bad day or does something that triggers you, you must find a way to cut them a break. To give them some room to process things. Once I learned that, our recovery really began in earnest. Once I decided that when my wife was trying to revise history again, I would just listen and not defend. or if she went off on me about something, I would just listen and not defend. And 99% of the time, she comes up to me later and apologizes. I could have gone off...but chose a different route. And we have moved forward because of it.

Cut each other a break. Both of you desire the same thing. Look each other in the eye and know that you both want to end up in the same place. You are both in different places right now. Take the steps one at a time back towards each other. In short order, this will be behind you.

It may take awhile. In some accounts, the affair and the other hurts will linger for years. But each day, each week, each month...it gets a little better.

So, dont feel negative about this advice, nor towards each other. This stuff is very simple...but it aint easy.

In His arms.

T_D,

I'm really glad to see that it looks like you are getting some good advice here.

We are all rooting for you, we all want to see you and your wife get through recovery and restore your marriage. And I'd wager you've got a lot of people praying for you and BT.

All the best

Hey Tired Dad and Breaking Thread, I am glad to see you back on here.

Pardon me if I give some suggestions that have already been told, I haven't gotten a chance to read all the replies...

Breaking Thread, The connection you have with the OM is much like a drug, and literally emits chemicals and endorphins that make you feel good. You don't want to hurt OM because there is a place in your heart and a thankfulness you have for the OM for making you feel good. But it is not the OM that you have feelings for, but rather what he represents, fresh, new, and unrequited love. The Prince Charming from the Cinderella tale. The perfect love, the greener grass.

This is a powerful drug, and like a powerful drug, it's attraction is overwhelming.

In order to release this hold the drug has on your life you have to go to EXTREME measures. You have to burn all bridges. The fact that you argue with your BH about any action will take (like calling OM) shows him you are still holding out hope. If you TRULY wanted to recover your M you need to scorch the earth...there are too many seeds planted.

Dr. Harley says that A partners do NOT need closure. That if they had their choice they would say goodbye on a carribean cruise.

Your M can not recover if there is ANY contact with the OM.

You are doing a GREAT job being honest with your BH about contact with the OM...now take it a step further...

TD, time to call the OM's W, not the OM, there is little that can be gained from talking with him...but call her now, and any other time there is contact. Let her know all the proof youi have...the A phone, the contact they had, etc.

Then a NC letter needs to be written to the OM stating unequivocally there will be NC in the future...this should be written by you Breaking Thread, but read and approved by TD.

Nope, TD doesn't 'OWN' you, but there should be no secrets between you. Pass over any secret email accounts and passwords, any phone records or passwords, etc. And likewise for TD...you pass along to BT any secret accounts. The threat is there for a revenge A.

TD, keep up the good work fulfilling those ENs.

Plan a trip together, soon, anywhere...just the two of you, to reconnect.

True marital recovery is possible, but won't happen until there is NC with OM. Anytime there is contact with the OM in the future, it will take yoiu back to the beginning of recovery again...

Breaking Htread, you won't have a true idea of what M with TD is like until OM is TRULY out of your life and you have suffered through withdrawal (3-4 months?)

I KNOW you are unique, but your story is VERY similar to mine, and many other folks on here. There are some similarities in the words and actions by both the BS and the WS...you'll see over time...

I really appreciate so many of the replies here that I can tell are meant with good intentions.


My dilema is that this is all overwhelming my W.


We have our first MC session Thursday evening. In the meantime I plan on not posting here in the interim, and focusing on her and her needs.


Even though it is obvious and reasonable and logical that I cannpt 100% trust her, I also have to accept that unless I can accept what she tells me, and put my faith in it, our M has no chance.


I know that I am placing myself in great risk to be betrayed again, but right now I feel that I need to do that if I really honestly want to try to save my M.


If she betrays me again, short term or long term, well, atleast I know I gave it my best shot and I can leave the M knowing that.

So please keep posting. I will catch up on things in a few days probably. But right now I want to concentrate on her. I want to make her feel safe in coming back in to a marriage with me. And in looking back on our M with clearer eyes, can see how scary it is for her to do this.

I am asking her to trust me when I say that I have changed and am continuing to strive for self improvement to be a better husband. If I am asking her to trust me in this respect then I owe her the same when she tells me that she wants to save our M and that OM is out of the picture for good.

Thanks again and wish me luck. Hopefully when I get around to posting again things will be better.


I hope they will get better, because I love her......

TD,

Keep up the good fight. You two just keeping looking into each other's eyes. Make sure the counselor is pro-marriage, and helps you with a PLAN of action on how to move forward. If not, then call Steve Harley if you can afford to do so.

You two are doing well, even though it doesnt feel like it.

Protect her from yourself. And if she is still reading, I would ask her to protect you from herself.

Godspeed.

In His arms.