I am sorry but it is impossible to truly recover without no contact. You have made it quite clear that she risks the marriage by continued contact. You are also correct that continued contact will most of the time lead to a continuation of the affair in the future. It is a huge slap in the face to you for her to continue contacting him behind your back like this.

My guess is that she has become comfortable in lying to you behind your back and apparently feels she has the ability to continue to deceive you. Finally I hate to say this but she sounds like a cakewoman. She seems to be a person who enjoys the benefits of a marriage and a love of a husband but who also enjoys having a lover on the side. The sad fact is that her continue contact with him indicates she is still playing you. I think it time for plan B. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change.
She continues to prioritize him over you by continued contact and is satisified that she can still cheat and betray you on at least on an emotional level. The truth is that she is still cheating on you. I am sorry for you.

I agree that unless you enforce no contact what is there than? You say you don't want her to know that you know because of fear that she will go and drive deeper hiding contact. This is all about risk there are no gurantees but marriages that suffer infidelity won't get anywhere with out some decisions including some type of risk.

I understand your fear but I have a question for you why should she end contact if you act like you don't know and she thinks you don't know.
Seriosly if she thinks that you don't know that she is contacting him and her marriage is getting better what is her motivation than to stop? There are no consequences and like bryanp says she gets to have a a fun marriage while also getting the om.

So really campdog why should she end contact on her own? If anything campdog you are actually encouraging the behavior. If life is good with you and the otherman why end it? In fact why would anyone end it than?

he is still calling him and lying to me about it. For the last two months they have spoken about 8 times a month usually for about ten minutes but on occassion for as long as half an hour.

Hey CD. A big improvement in your life which is a true blessing !

That contact with OM has to end though. As other posters have said NC has to be total for recovery to properly execute.

You can't FORCE her to end contact, not can you EVER trace her attempts to contact OM if she wanted to hide them. Squid bought a secret cellphone to contact OM after she promised me up and down NC was in place.

Thats why it is not dangerou sto tell your WW about the calls.

" Baby you'e doing so well starting to recommit to our marriage but contacting OM is not only really bad for our recovery but it is a knife of disrespect twisting in me.

Please baby, be transparent and give me a reason to have a hope for our recovery. I can't stop you contacting him, and I won;t try, but know I think I tolerat ebetter thna such disrespect and I wil not put up with contact for long".

Type of thing.

She has to want to NC and WANT to be transparent. That usually REAL hard for WS.

All blessings mate. Be strong.

You guys are right of course. By continued contact she is still continuing the affair in fact as well as in my mind. Everyone that knows of the affair has told her that she has to break it off or leave the marriage. She is assuring them all that she HAS broken it off, including our counselor. I believe in her mind she thinks this is so since they aren't screwing each other.

If this were a typical (if there is such a thing) affair then my course would be clear and I would already be gone. But I can't ignore the abuse issue. My counselor told me about one woman he worked with for ten years that was a child rape survivor and who had been diagnosed as having multiple personality disorder. He said that after ten years he still wasn't sure if it was true. This is scary stuff. I asked my counselor (he is the only one besides me who knows about the calls) straight up if she was crazy. He said he didn't think so. He said that it might be a case of her not being able to appreciate the effect of her actions since she is so cut off from her own emotions. You can't appreciate the pain you cause others when you can't even feel your own. This was during the session where he told me he was tempted to beg me for a few more months (he didn't) and like I said he can ethically only reveal so much to me.

I asked both my wife and my counselor for a whole list of things I needed for transparency while we were still in joint counseling. My wife reacted with rage and accused me of treating her like a slave while my counselor got a real worried look on his face and asked me what I was doing. Later, in IC, I expressed to him how angry I was at him for not supporting me. He said that my wife had somehow retained a sense of self through her whole horrible childhood that she needed to feel was inviolate. He said that any perceived threat to this safe core she had created would be met with resitance and every weapon at her disposal. He told me that she had to feel safe with me before she would allow any inroads into her safety zone. This was right after d-day and my subsequent experiences with my wife have proved the truth of his observation. I can see with my own eyes how my beloved violated wife is only now relaxing with me and beginning to open up. I described some of it in my last post. There was a stunning example of this just about an hour ago.

I'm digressing, sorry. I was trying to get it straight to myself as much as anyone else why I wasn't already out the door. bOb, as usual you have sound advice. I like your examples of how to reveal my knowlege to my wife. I had been thinking reveal and leave. See, if I tell my wife of my knowlege of the calls there's no guarantee that she will stop all contact but it will then be real easy to hide it. Once I lose this edge how will I ever know if she's telling the truth, especially knowing what I already know? How do you get trust back when it's been so horribly betrayed? How did you start trusting Squid again? Why do you trust her now? I can't be comfortable with the notion that it will FEEL right when it's right. If that was the case then I would be ecstatic right now since my relationship with my wife FEELS better than it ever has. And I would be a fool and rightfully taken for one.

Kath, stop apologising and go right ahead and be as harsh as you want to be. You are a friend (albeit a digital one) and I have broad shoulders and a weak mind. I know you have a kind heart and if I ever feel hurt by your words I will take them with this in mind. Friends should sometimes be blunt with friends. I also saw that you posted to my wife's thread although I didn't read it. I'm sure you showed her the same kindness and compassion that you've showed me. It choked me up a little. I told her of your post but she hasn't read it. She is still greatly resisting dealing with her pain. I hope this will change once our counselor gets back. Wish me luck guys. I'm no closer to peace now than I was on d-day but we does what we can, right?

Once I lose this edge how will I ever know if she's telling the truth, especially knowing what I already know? How do you get trust back when it's been so horribly betrayed? How did you start trusting Squid again? Why do you trust her now?

CD you have to flick a switch in your mindset here. It is NOT your job to police NO, it is your WWs job to DEMONSTRATE NC.

It was very liberating for me to realise that short of physically restraining Squid I could not mak eher maintain NC. Then I realised...I actually don;t WANT that. I only want to work on our marriage if Squid wants to ENOUGH to maintain NC voluntarily and to be prepared to DEMONSTRATE that to me.

I told Squid what I suggested to you, in pretty much those words. She sulked BAD for a while but did not contact OM (his GF confirmed this). Then she phoned him a final time " to see where she stood". She emerged from the call knowing OM didn;t want a relationship.

Slowly she started becoming transparent in activity to me. To begin with HURLING her cell bill at me " THERE ! Happy now?!" type responses. Then she gave me the secret phone she bought. She started giving me every cell and phone bill. Stopped all external karate competitions, started POJAing her activities with me ( not asking my permission, but discusing how we both felt about them) and we arrive now, at almost a year of NC and Squid has been transparent in activity for probably nine months.

I will NEVER trust blindly again, but I have absolutely no reason to suspect she is carrying on contact with OM or maintaining a relationship with anyone else.

True, CD , she COULD be, but she knows that it woudl mean a sad but immediate divorce.

CD its really hard, but you have to be prepared to lose her OR tolerate the destructive disrespect of continued contact.

Be a lighthouse, be attractive and calm, but maintain boudaries that you require NC and transparency in activity so that you may rebuild faith in each other. BTW I ALSO became transparent in operation and POJA everything. This helped a LOT.

"feeling right" got me abused pre-affair, so I rely on evidence and a realistic expectation of people's natures now. When your WW has a habit of transparency and and you do too, you will feel yourself being more trusting. And believe me, WWs desire to contact OM will dissipate hugely with NC. She won't always want to call him like she does now.

I hope this helps mate. Be flexible to begin with, as she gets used to the new opportunity she has to regain your trust. But not for too long. Too long is doormat. And that just don't sit well on what I know about ya CD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All blessings br'a. You doing GOOD!.

Campdog,

Welcome back! As you can see I’m still around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I’m glad you and your W are doing better but I have to agree with Bob – it’s not your job to police your W, she must demonstrate NC TO you. And I don’t think it will help to hide your knowledge about the continuous contact from your W. As long as you remain silent about if, she will get away with it and continue with the contact. I think she is still in some sort of “fog”. She will not stop contact by herself, but if you convey your knowledge about the contact to her and let her know how hurtful this is to you (in the way Bob have so nicely set out for you in a previous post), she will have to face the consequences thereof and hopefully it will motivate her to stop ALL contact.

Campdog, I’m really glad your W is in the process of overcoming her child abuse issues…this is a long and difficult road and will take time. But your continuous help, support, guidance and love will be a major factor in her recovery. May God bless you for this.

Blessings,
Suzet

I dunno bOb, is it me? I've heard you say before that you will never trust blindly again but I NEVER did. I knew the danger of the kind of relationship I had with my wife pre A and when I found her birth control pills I KNEW, I didn't believe her denials. If I didn't know about the calls I currently would be telling everyone that we were in recovery. There is absolutely NO reason, in her actions or words to disbelieve that she is still talking to him. You congratulated me on the fact that she had only called him on eight ocassions in 30 days. I didn't take it as sarcasm but what is so good about that? She cheated on me with him for years and kept right on with contact after she confessed. Over 100+ calls back and forth the first month. She says there hasn't been any physical contact and I tend to believe her but it would be very easy for them to be together almost any time. The only reason I believe they haven't seen each other is that I can match her calls to him with her activities and there's no correlation that I can see.

Now realize that the fact is that she is still calling him but at the same time giving me every reason in the world to believe we are building a newer and better marriage. We all know where continued contact is going to lead. Assume I tell her I am tracking her cell phone calls. It would then be a simple matter to call from a work or public phone, use a calling card or even get a second secret cell phone as your wife did. The only reason she is using her cell now is that she doesn't know her calls are transparent to me. So I then would have no way of gauging her truthfulness and one day not far down the line I would have my world fall in on me again.

Under 'normal' circumstances plan B is apparently needed and I AM planning to leave, probably soon. But look at the whole picture (I'm thinking out loud now). Here is a woman who spent her whole life isolating herself from her feelings because her feelings were too terrible to bear. She didn't know why until about two months ago, just that she was unhappy and scared. Now, for the first time in her life, she is facing her feelings and slowly trying to understand how a horrendous experience has screwed with her head. She's doing this even though doing it makes her horribly upset and physically ill. She's trying to tear down the walls she has built for self protection and let a man (me) into her safe haven. These are the thoughts that have kept me here and kept me sane.

Part of recovery for me has been for the realization to begin to dawn that MY feelings are important too. I think that my wife is beginning to realize that as well. So at what point do I place my needs to the forefront and let go of the relationship and life that are everything in the world to me? Because they WOULD be gone. Part of my wife's reaction to her rapes has been to violently resist anything she feels she is being MADE to do. She will fight like a demon against anything she feels she HAS to do as a direct result of her HAVING to be raped by her uncle. If I left saying that she HAD to break off contact with her partner in adultery to keep me it would be the last thing in the world she would do. I believe that even saying to her at this point that I couldn't continue on with the relationship while she kept up contact with him would cause the same reaction. I see no rationality in either the affair or her defense mechanisms.

So that's where I'm at right now. Knowing that she is still talking to him, and maybe doing more, is killing me especially in light of the wonderful way we are relating to each other lately. On the other hand I have not yet reached the point where leaving is neccessary for my personal survival but that point is not far off. I see disaster looming if she keeps calling him. Man! I never thought I would find myself in a place like this at this point in my life. Just musing. I love you guys for your concern and for your efforts to show me a path out of this swamp. I'll never forget any of you. Coming to this website and knowing you all has made me a better person and taught me valuable lessons about Life. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

CD,

You are looking at this all wrong. You said
You do NOT demand a thing from her. You simply explain that you KNOW that she has continued contact with OM, and that YOU cannot take it any more. So you are taking actions to protect yourself against her behavior. END OF COMMENTS

You are NOT telling her what to do, you are telling her what YOU will do. It is her choice to continue contact, your choice is not to be part of a triangle. It is simple, it is clear, and it is her choice.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

So then, assuming that I made myself clear, your advice as well is that I should leave? There would be no going back IMHO.

Hi, Campdog--

I keep thinking about your counselor's hope that you can last a while longer. He is privy to information about your wife that no one else has. For all we know, she is trying to pull back from OM, and it is your increased love and affection that is helping her to feel safe enough to do this. Maybe counselor is helping her develop the ability to set limits with OM so she can end things. (She might feel that she "owes" him contact because of the baby, or she might feel that because she has had contact with him for two years, she doesn't have the "right" to change the rules now. Hey, maybe he's using the baby over her, like, "If you shut me out, I'll take baby away from you") Obviously, there is no way to know what's really going on, but the one person who has a better idea than anyone else is asking you to hang in there longer if you can. I think that's worth a lot.

I think the changes you have described in her behavior are significant and I understand your reluctance to throw all that progress away now. Campdog, you have accomplished so much. Keep us posted on the next MC appointment...

Well Kath (and the rest) the cat is out of the bag and the die is cast. I told my wife last night that I knew she was still calling her lover and that I was checking her cell phone records. I hope you're seated comfortably because I have a feeling this will be a long one.

My wife went away for four days on a business trip. Before she left she had sensed that I was having major distress over her going alone to a hotel (and I sure was ). She wrote me a beautiful letter saying in part that she was going there alone and that she would NOT be with him. She put her heart into that letter and I cried in front of her when I read it. On the second day of her trip I spoke to her about 11:00AM. Later that day I took a nap at the same time the baby did. When we woke up around six o'clock I saw a missed message from her at 5:00PM. I called her and when she didn't answer her cell I left a nessage. Her habit for the last few months has been to call back within a short period of time whenever she missed a call. This time she didn't. At seven I called again. Then at 7:30 and at 8. By then I was into a full blown anxiety attack. For years whenever she was out of touch until late in the evening it meant that she was off being some guy's booty call and I was freaking out thinking that she might have lied in her letter. She called back at around 8:30PM and she was still working. I didn't act reassured but instead accused her of not caring about my feelings and told her that she should have realized that I would be triggered by her being out of touch. She in turn got pissed off at me and this conversation apparently soured her for the rest of the trip. She told me last night that her first impulse was to tell me to **** off and leave her phone off.

I'm not proud of my behavior but I'm not beating myself up too bad. Remember, I KNOW she's still involved with her lover. Anyway she told me last night how badly our conversation had upset her and I could see her point. But then she began saying that I was going to drive her crazy with my distrust. She said that she felt like no matter how hard she tried that I was NEVER going to trust her. When she began saying that I wanted our relationship to fail and basically negating everything that we have been achieving the dam burst and I told her that I knew about her calls to him since d-day and showed her the records. I have to admit it was a major relief. I HATE lies and deceit and I hated keeping my knowlege secret, have hated it for months.

Her attitude changed after she looked at the records. Now she said I was s**t for checking up on her. She was shocked to know that I had his phone number and address and surprised that I hadn't confronted him. Anyway to make a long story longer she made a number of admissions during our conversation. She most significantly said to me that she couldn't promise that she wouldn't call him any more. At first she said that it was because of the baby but I pointed out the times she called him and the length of the calls and she had to drop that approach. She said subsequently that she just wanted to know he was all right. She said that she had broken his heart when she broke off the affair and didn't let him have the baby and she didn't want to hurt him anymore! She told me that anything having to do with the baby was between them and had nothing to do with me. She said that maybe she didn't know how to stop lying. She said that she wasn't going to deal with her rape issues anymore and that she probably wouldn't go to her counseling session tonight. She said that it was just too hard trying to make our marriage work and that she just wanted to go into a corner and hide from her life. She said that every time she tried to get close to me I pushed her away. There was probably more but my head is spinning right now.

For my part I tried to stay rational and focused. I didn't let myself get more upset or angry. I pointed out that telling her about the calls was a major gesture of trust since I knew that now she would no longer use that cell phone to call him. I said that I told her about the calls to try and show that I was NOT irrationally refusing to trust her word. I said that rather than thinking that I wanted the relationship to fail that she should realize the love it took to remain and work on the marrige DESPITE knowing that she was still involved with her lover. I also told her that I couldn't accept her still being involved with him. I didn't tell her that she HAD to stop calling him. When she told me she wasn't going to promise not to call him she asked me if it meant that I was going to leave her and I said it probably did.

So there it is. After everything that has happened up to this point I face this new day with the belief that my marriage is to all intents and purposes, over. I know (even if she doesn't) that my wife's statements that she is done dealing with her rape issues is a sign that she is resisting the healing process, probably because it is so painful. I also know that it's entirely possible she will resist it forever. I know too that she is still having an affair 4 months after she revealed it, and my son's paternity, to me. I believe she has no intention of ending it. I have lots of regrets but none over my conduct in this whole [censored] episode. I did everything I could, I am as sure of that as I'm sure of my name. I will continue to do it right up until the moment I leave. I love you guys. Pray for me.

If I'm not mistaken campdog you are the primary male figure in this child life and your money and how it affects your marriage so actually anything that has to do with the baby will affect your life and so it is your business and it does have anything to do with you.

Just aimlessly reading posts. I'm feeling all empty inside right now.

I'm not saying I accept ANY of her babble, Noliving. I was just putting down the things she said that took away my hope. The point, IMHO, is that SHE believes them.

P.S. She just left for work. I and the baby hung out with her as she was getting ready as usual. Not a word about last night. As she was going out the door she said she loved me and was "going to make it work". I didn't cry until she was gone and couldn't see me.

I am so sorry for your pain. Her statement that the baby only deals with her and the OM and you have nothing to do with it is beyond comprehension. Her statement that she simply does not know if she can ever stop lying is quite significant. The implication is that she has no intention of cutting off contact with OM. I think you deserve so much better. What is the point of being married to a woman who gets pregnant by her lover (puts your health at risk for std's), tells you that lying is part of her nature, and really has no desire or will to cut off contact with her lover? You have tried but really I think you would have to be masochistic to remain with her. Her attitude is simply toxic to you and your relationship. Her statements and actions indicate that her past will be her future. It is time to move on and find a better life for yourself. I wish you luck.

Are you sure that the baby is not yours?

How old are you and your wife?

How long have you been married?

Are you working outside the home?

Campdog,

You're still dealing with an addict. They're going to go from one extreme (sneaking their fix) to another (being incredibly remorseful and wanting to "make it work"). The rape issues are what they are---another thing to work through. But her behavior is typical of an affair. It doesn't mean that things are hopeless, or that it's all over---but it does mean that before you get to a point where you're willing to throw in the towel and listen to BryanP, you need to separate (Plan B). And give it some time. If she comes back, it's going to be because she's ready and willing to demonstrate that she's clean. And that will involve transparency. Your counselor is well-intentioned, but the bottom line is that she's behaving in this way because she's having an affair, not because she's an abuse victim.

Plan B.

Campdog, I hope you don't my intruding on your thread. I had a few things that seemed like they needed to be said (at least it seemed that way to me). But some of them are "tough" on you and I KNOW the emotional state you are currently in because I've been there myself several times in the past 3+ years of my own recovery effort.


The "why" is simple to explain, but accepting and dealing with the explanation is HARD emotionally.

There are only 2 possible reasons, or "whys," for the contacts.

1. The affair never really ended, she's just been "good" at covering it up. You state that is not a possibility, and I tend to believe you because Betrayed Spouses become excellent detectives when they have ANY suspicion that anything is out of the ordinary.

2. She is "Holding onto" the age old fog of many a Wayward Spouse. She thinks they can revert to being "just friends." Cutting off the friendship is harder in many way than cutting off the affair. I've been at this part of the recovery problem for over 3 years now.

Your wife's reaction to your "snooping" doesn't get much of a "rise" out of me. No one likes to be "snooped" upon, but the WS brought it upon theirself, and quite frankly, she's more angry about getting "found out in yet another lie" than she is about the total lack of respect that she shows YOU whenever she maintains contact and "friendship" with the person who RAPED you as part of your "one flesh" relationship with your wife.

I know you feel the anger and it causes all sorts of doubts and fears in you, but that is exactly what your wife is trying to do....shift the "responsibility" to you. Remember this one thing about marriage if you don't remember anything else while dealing with the torrent of emotions from the up and down recovery process.....there are NO secrets in a marriage and "I do" means each of you "surrenders" your "rights" to the other. In the parlance of MB, you put each other's needs ahead of your own needs....and secrecy that is deleterious to the marriage is selfish and self-serving, and harmful to the marriage. When one partner has "lost the trust of their spouse," the unfaithful spouse must regain that trust by CHOOSING spouse over anyone else. Plain and simple, they have "no right" to trust that is not earned. They "squandered" the "blind trust" that we all give each other when we get married and now the "freebee" is gone and the "trust ticket" must be paid for and/or earned, unless YOU choose to simply give trust as a gift of mercy and love, accepting that the trust may be misplaced and you can get hurt again.

So forgive me if I take a "so what" attitude toward her anger. While I deeply regret that she may have been raped as a child, "raping" you in return is NO answer.

YOU have to ask yourself what YOUR commitment is to YOUR wedding vows to her, "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."

Recovery stinks from time to time. For some it takes YEARS longer than the average of 2 years. But we endure for love and we put our trust in the LORD (if we are believers).

IF your wife has a "mental illness" as result of her childhood experience, are you going to endure the hard times and help her to heal so that you can both move into the future healed and together? Or will you "trade her in on a newer and "maybe" flawless model? ( I wonder if there are ANY models of cars that do not also have "repair shops" because they ARE flawless and perfect?) Haven't seen too many marriages like that either, and certainly not any who have gone through an episode of adultery.

God bless.

Hiya Mimi. I shot off a flare for you. I'm assuming this post is in answer to that and I humbly thank you. To answer your questions in order:

1. There's absolutely no doubt who the father is. It's not me. I am the father on my son's birth certificate.
2. I am 52, my wife is 35
3. We've been together ten years, married for eight.
4. I am a retired Correction Officer and a stay at home dad.

I've got a few threads going if you have about a year to read all my sorry posts.

CD

Theres nothing unusual happening in yoru sitiation. I know it is uniquely painful to you, but its all predictable. by the book.

Tell you a SMALL GOOD thing ? Your WW admitted she could not promise not to call OM. That's rare IME. Honesty and atacit admission of addiction.

I need to leave you to the care of folks who have walked in your shoes, like K, bur CD, I don't see any way that your sit is hopeless. Your WW is addicted. WS can't usually give up OP without help.

Continue to be a lighthouse for your WW. Its really early to give up.

I don;t recall if exposure oto somebody OM cares about is possible? Can you help me remember CD ?

MB's/The Harleys view an A as an addiction and I certainly agree. Lots of other counselors do not share the MB viewpoint.

That being said, it is my understanding from addiction counselors that I have known and from my reading in this area, it is necessary to treat the addiction before the UNDERLYING ISSUES. This is because your WW is had probably used the A for self-medication and now has become addicted.

I will continue reading about your sit. However, as of now, I agree with the others with the value of sticking to the MB plan.

How long have you been in PLAN A? Is your wife still in the home with you? Are you saying that you consider your son yours emotionally even though he is not your biological son? Does the OM know about the baby? Does the OM have any contact with the baby?