Trying to 4th step myself a little bit here.

make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves

I bumped back to the top a post I started about how to recognize when we are falling prey to a manipulator.....

Was doing some HARD moral inventory today ... came up with a question for myself that I could not answer right away.

Asking for help.

How does one recognize when one is, in fact, using manipulation to get something from another?

How do I recognize in myself when I am using someone's weaknesses of guilt or obsession ... to bend their will toward mine?

If I am hitting on someone's guilty, vain or frightened spots as a means of coercion .... how can I recognize that I am being a manipulator?

Wow I like that question. I second the question! Mind if I camp here and learn?

pep, when i read the post you bumped up, that exact same question came to mind. am i a manipulator??

i know i don't conciously try to be one but i do wonder if some of my actions are.

i know i have worked very hard at not manipulating with my emotions. specifically falling into beating up on myself as a way to get my husband to try to build me up.

i'm guessing there may be other old habits of mine that try to manipulate him.

it's very confusing!!!

I can chime in on this since I *have* recognized times that I was manipulating the situation. At the very end of my M here with the STBXH and I can look back and see clearly there were times that I did attenpt to manipulate the sitch to meet my needs, even if it were to be only in a very shallow and minimalist way.

I wanted something, anything from STBXH that showed me he still cared that I was willing to take scraps and crumbs, and the grovel for more. What a sad testament to my co-dependency on him that I was willing to take him back and rebuild after a 3rd, 4th, even 5th A!!

Don't get me wrong, I completely and totally believe in M and hope to get to try it again some day, but this M has been near death for a long time due to neglect and outright abuse. I manipulated him the only way I knew how to get what I so desperately thought I needed. I played on his emotions, his guilt, his minimal sense of right and wrong....

After awhile it all stopped working and I evolved tot he point where I realized that this relationship was very unhealthy for us both, toxic.

Moving on, moving forward, and pray that I am never in such a place as that again.

Pep

I can't believe the timing of this.

I'm right there.

Your Peck thread got me thinking about my deeply uncomfortable relationship with my mother. And it came to me suddenly that Mum manipulates others by shaming their conscience. She decides for you how you 'ought' to feel about something, and then she makes you ashamed of not feeling it. It's a nasty trick. It works.

And I do it too.

I do it when I'm pressured, desperate, panicking.

I knew all my life that there was something about my mother that repulsed me and I wanted SO much not to be like her. I just couldn't figure out exactly what the something was.

Now I know. I can work on avoiding it.

When am I being manipulative? I think it's when I feel fear of the other not choosing my choice. But I'll have to think about it.

This is such a big step for me.

TogetherAlone

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

and here I thought I might be struggling with this all by myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am hoping Gimble reads this ... and BrambleRose too. And Mel. And anyone else familiar with the 12 steps.

I'd say if you are using anything less than complete honesty to get what you want from another person, you are manipulating them.
Mulan

Well, define manipulation. Or rather, identify it case by case.

I remember a thread on this from a year ago or so. Not all manipulation is bad. Not all manipulation is irrelevant.

In fact, getting someone to do something that needs to be done is always manipulation at it's core.

So, good manipulation needs to be distinguished from bad manipulations. It's a continuum. Where on the spectrum is the manipulation in question?

Just always give the subject of the manipulation their final choice in the matter.

Informed consent.

NB: This is right out of my Al Anon daily reflections book.

TA.... You may have provided me with the first clue! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I do it when I'm pressured, desperate, panicking.

Thanks.

I disagree.... I feel skilled enough to manipulate using complete honesty!

***I disagree.... I feel skilled enough to manipulate using complete honesty!***

Well, in that case I have a LOT of work to do!
LOL
Mulan

"I feel skilled enough to manipulate using complete honesty."

If total honesty is used, including no omissions (i.e. informed consent) is it manipulation or convincing by rational argument?

I think intent is relevant here.

i'm so confussed!!!!

Here's something to consider. Manipulation is one of the first things you ever learned to do without being taught by someone. It was done through self-discovery as an infant when your parents would give you what you wanted to make you stop crying.

In the beggining you would cry for obvious reasons... hungry, wet, tired, etc. But as time went on you learned that when you would cry things would happen your way. Soon you started to do these for you own personal gain and if you didn't then BEHOLD... the temper tantram. Though most parents would catch on to your game, it was still something you tried.

One of the less attractive parts of human nature. I think for most people it comes naturally to manipulate people unethically. Fortunately most people constantly struggle against that tendency, and usually succeed.

Still it's a tricky question, yes? What makes it 'manipulation'? Is the distinction whether the other person has been informed to the appropriate exent vs. kept in the dark? One of the tricky bits is what's 'appropriate' in the given situation.

Consider a sales person. Gotta make the sale - which involves manipulation - but also gotta be ethical if he wants to be able to live with himself.

If your intent to get something you want, for whatever reasons, honestly and above board then manipulation = rational argument.

IMO

OK ... but hear me out ....

Over the last 2 days we came up against an issue that needs to be POJA'd between us. (what it is, doesn't matter as much as the principles at hand)

My idea ... no! make that my need .... was to POJA this as quickly as possible. The problem just hanging out there unresolved was making me nutz.

My H did not need to POJA this quickly. In fact, he felt pressured by my need to get this resolved ASAP.

I found myself thinking up ways to more or less manipulate him into desiring to get this decision behind us quickly as well.

See?

Manipulation is not having a discussion or making a straightforward request. It is done in many different ways (guilt, pity, etc) and is a sly and creative way for unhealthy individuals to try to get what they want.

Healthy people ask for what they want. They ask with the knowledge and ability to accept that they may be turned down or things may not go just exactly like they want.

Healthy people do not try to control outcomes. (hi Bramblerose <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Susan

Were you simply wanting to resolve it as quickly as possible

or did you have a particular outcome in mind you were inwardly pushing for?

To me resolving something quickly is not the manipulation as much as seeking a desired outcome.

Susan