I am angry.

Angry with MYSELF.

I have tried and tried and tried to do what I think GOD would want me to do. I've tried to forgive my H and OW. I've tried to love OC and remember that she is INNOCENT. I've tried to change MY behavior to reflect the love I have for my H.

What has it brought me? Nothing but pain. Though my H is remorseful, I am still hurting, still angry, still waiting for the trust to return.

What's the point? My H made the choice to ruin every GOOD foundation our marriage was built on. I used to think we could rebuild......but after three years we are still on shaky ground.

Anyways, OT.

Thanks for the debate. Touche.

AVNL, I was not trying to debate you or change your opinion. I just presented my side and tried to understand yours. I am so sorry that you are still struggling. May God bless you and your family.

This child someone is being "forced" to provide for is a child of God.

An innocent, resulting from the acts of two people's carelessness. Both are responsible to care for this child as loving parents encompassing all the word would entail, and entrusted by God to do just that.

A MIRACLE, regardless or the circumstance of his birth.

From a very huge supporter of pro-choice, as well as a believer in the responsibility of ALL to care for all inhabitants of this world, especially the children.

Okay, I just read your last post, and now it is more clear where you are coming from.

For me, once I stepped out of victim mentality into power over my own life mentality, I was able to get past my hurt and anger over someone who has hurt me, and brought very much anguish into my life.

It is so hard, and I struggle on a daily basis and fight demons you would not believe, but I decided I wanted to be happy, and everyone else could go to ******.

So today is a good day for me.

God bless you.

AVNL -

You have the right to divorce your husband if you want to look at it biblically.

But you say you have tried and tried, and your husband is remorseful, but you still don't feel loved or safe. I would like to hear more about what else is going on.

my xh got ow preggers.

It was wrong.

But the baby is a sweet innocent child who does NOT deserve to have selfish parents...like a WS and an OP.

My xh is soooooo all about himself that he chose to NOT use a condom b/c he was all about him...the feeling part of the act. And ow, well, she has one more child outta wedlock too.

And I have made peace w/her. But I do not and will never look to her as a friend, despite our making peace.

For first time 2 days ago, I held the oc. She is cute. And she walked up to me and stretched up her arms and wanted ME to pick her up. What's even harder to swallow is that her name is the name I was to name my son (I picked it out) had he been a girl. Yea, my xh's a piece of work.

And yea, true to nature, he's off cheating on ow/w now with another OW. Darth has more ow than he knows what to do with and this time he'd better wrap up the lightsabre if he knows what's good for him.

This is NOT about the child.

It's about YOU dealing with the hand of cards dealt you.

If YOU cannot get past this, and it will remain this horrible sitch for you and you are unable to attain peace over this with your xwh, then you need to make choices which will reflect this.

We can detest the OP, detest and feel anger at the WS too...but the kids don't deserve it. They're pawns in this game...

And yes, my xh's present W was imho...and I will always believe...after his $$$ and to get him to force his hand in our divorce...use the bambino to speed up our divorce.

Ironically, she cried to me after finding out she's again a BS a few weeks ago saying "he didn't even marry me in a church"? I said "wow. Why do you think that? It may be tough love but it's time you got the truth...what did you think you were getting? And what does his new OW think she's getting?"

And as the other poster said here...yes, IF THEY'LL DO IT WITH YOU THEY'LL DO IT TO YOU.

But back to YOU>

Don't blame a kid for the horrible selfish and vain choices of a man and a woman, both of consenting ages, who choose for personal reasons to NOT use birth control.

For my xh, it was all about him...and how to feeeeeel great. For ow, it was all manipulation to get him to leave me for good and for me to have straw to break camel's back and get the divorce done. And money.

And now, there's gonna be another precious child stuck in a crumbling affair relationship...

Sin begats sin begats sin. Nothing good relationship wise comes of affair relationships.

But the children are another story. They are indeed blessings of God.

If I NEVER remarry, I will most likely upon my 40th or so bday, choose to adopt. And that child may be a child of an unwanted pregnancy or an affair. I have made peace with what happened in my life. It was NOT my choice and I was NOT good with it, and did NOT have to live in it if i did not want to. My xh was unrepentant and did not change. By the time ow announced her pregnancy, we'd been separated, although seeing each other on and off talking. And it had the effect she wanted...it made me repulsed at my WS. So much so that any hopes of reconciliation were never to be thought of ever again. Like something so deep broke inside of me.

I remember the day my xh broke the news. We'd been divorced maybe a month. He finally told me in his office how far along she was (last trimester). I broke down crying. I yelled at him "how could you do this to our family...to our son? Don't you ever think? Don't you realize our son will someday add up the age of his sister and the amount of time of your marriage to FV and when you and I divorced and he'll find out the truth without anybody ever telling him about that? Or is there a way you can spin your way outta this one...this one is a long lie...one that lasts forever." He cried. He said he'd always love me. And I know he does..but he is no longer the man I ever knew. He's made some serious horrible choices and he's a shell of the man I married now.

And then shortly thereafter, he named the child the name I had picked out for my son...had he been a girl. Even written in my son's baby book in section where you put the ultrasound photo...and the caption says "If you had been a ___, your name would have been ...and I filled in Alexandra. Six years later...an Alexandra was born to the same dad...but the mom was different.

So stop saying woulda coulda shoulda,....

IT'S YOUR WH'S FAULT HE DIDN'T WRAP IT UP OK?

You can say you're working on things...but your words show your resentment...and anger...which is understandable.

But the fault is not solely on the OP.

It takes 2 to lie and cheat. OW had an accomplice..it was your H.

And unfortunately, unwanted children and impoverished single moms are a fact of life. Our society has addressed this issue b/c so many men just walkaway. It's good that your xwh has not. It takes a real man to say he was wrong and then live up to the responsibility he now is daddy to...

How it must feel to know that moments of pleasure can be followed by a lifetime of payments of child support.???

Nobody thinks of that. It's all about the moment when you're in an affair. It's all about the feeling. What the heck do they care about a BS? their kids? Nah. It's all about feeling good now, doing what makes them happy now...and doing whatever they want to do now...and not contemplating tomorrow.

If your XWH has made a TRUE attempt at recovery WITH you, maybe things might be different? has he? If he has not, then you must do what you have to do. He's had enough time to mull this issue he brought on himself over...and enough time to be a man about recovering his marriage..and that means working with you thru this time.

But men DO have control over their reproductive rights.

I REPEAT IN ALL CAPS...

MEN DO HAVE CONTROL OVER REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS.

THEY HAVE RIGHT TO NOT SLEEP WITH A WOMAN.

THEY HAVE RIGHT TO WEAR A CONDOM.

THEY HAVE RIGHT TO ASK A WOMAN IF THEY ARE USING BIRTH CONTROL...BEFORE THEY PUT ON THEIR CONDOM.

WS CANNOT REASON...THEY CANNOT GET PAST THEMSELVES ENOUGH TO THINK TO WEAR A CONDOM...OR TAKE A PILL..

IT IS ALL ABOUT THEM.

AND THE AFTERMATH OF THEIR CHOICES ARE USUALLY NOT PRETTY.

If the man didn't want a child, he should have used protection.

What exactly don't you understand about this issue?

I think that it is the "wallet" issue that sparked this debate. When the phrase "does not want a child" is used...I think it translates into "does not want to pay for a child".

It would probably not matter until the ole wallet is being dipped into. Afterall, you cannot MAKE a man be emotionally supportive of a child...but the court sure can make him "financially" supportive of said child.

JMHO
committed

Well drat....I should have read further into the thread.

It seems like it is clear here as to what "issue" is being taken. The issue of FINANCES!

How did I know that....many posts back? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

committed

Wow JustPeachy, got some passion in ya tonight girl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

>Because I am still paying for the choices I didn't get to make.


Why are you PAYING for anything? And you are CHOOSING - to stay or go based on the information you have.

> have tried and tried and tried to do what I think GOD would want me to do. I've tried to forgive my H and OW. I've tried to love OC and remember that she is INNOCENT. I've tried to change MY behavior to reflect the love I have for my H.


Why are you TRYING??? Do. Be. Trying implies that only an attempt is being made, not the actual complete act. To behave in love will allow love to follow.

>It's about YOU dealing with the hand of cards dealt you.

This is the most true statement ever. If YOU cannot deal with this, there will never be that forgivness, there will never be acceptance, and there will never be a day you don't dwell on this without sadness and loss.

We choose our wealth in life. You can choose to be rich or poor (in love and living). You can dwell on the past that cannot be changed or you can face the future which is as malleable as potter's clay.

- Kimmy

AVNL,

Like the other's have stated,this situation with the OW and OC is reality and it is bad news IMO.I honestly don't think you are blaming the OC for BEING but that the whole situation you are in is so difficult and not part of your plan.It's not something that can be bought off or just go away.The OW and that OC are here to stay.

But YOU don't have to.And because you might not want to doesn't mean you are a bad person,any less important in the eyes of God or being selfish.Although I have not had the same situation with my STBXWH,I can tell you right now that an OC would have been a deal breaker.100% truthfully.Just like it was a deal breaker to still be in contact with the homewrecker and why I am now D'ing because of that promise I made to myself.I just personally did not have it in my heart to be part of a life long triangle plus OC.

On the other hand,maybe this is something you and your WH can work out over time and become more comfortable with.Only you can make that choice.I can certainly appreciate how hard all this is but your WH made the choice to have sex with another woman and it ALWAYS has the risk of a pregnancy,whether he thought it would happen or not or whether the OW was a scheming liar out to "get a man".Your WH may or may not want to be a part of the OC's life or help raise it or be financially responsible but it's too late for that.Like committed said,legally he may have no choice in the end.Those are the consequences.

Do what is right for YOU.Your WH didn't take into consideration your feelings before and your marriage and vows and although he may be regretful now,you do not have to remain a part of this mess unless you feel you can make a better life with your WH and all that surrounds the situation.I sense that you feel trapped.Maybe not but,do not let anyone guilt trip you into staying if it goes against everything you believe in.No one should fault you if you left and took a stand against a very painful and difficult situation.You do have choices and there are no easy answers.

O

I was going to write this, but Pepperband beat me to it.



You're argument was thoughtful, well layed out, but logically flawed, as Pepperband immediately noted. What society has failed to understand is that the act of sex is the primary form of reproduction. Even with contraception, the probability of conception is surprisingly high. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Sorry.

You can say that I am blaming OC or OW....you can say that this is all about financial responsibility. You can relate it back to my emotional issues all you want....the fact of the matter is I agree with Spring's opinion. I believe that women have too much control after conception and men do not have enough. Maybe men wouldn't feel the need to run away from responsibility if they had more choices after conception.

We've all heard of condoms breaking or a woman lying about being on birth control. Shoot, I even know a woman who conceived her youngest child twelve years after having her tubes tied.

You all seem pretty convinced that if a man didn't want to conceive he should abstain or use protection, so what if a man uses protection and the woman conceives anyway and then she says she doesn't want the baby and is getting an abortion. The man decides he wants the baby.....what rights does he have?

Can he force the woman to carry the baby to term, give it up to him, and then file for financial support?

I don't think so, chances are the woman would tell him to get over it, it's her body and she'll do what she darn well pleases. How is that his choice?

From reading through the thread again, it is obvious to me that the women on this board are threatened by the idea of a man having as many choices as they do in regard to procreation, and to avoid it you've turned it around on me and used my own personal experiences to chastise me for my opinion.

The fact remains: men do not have any control over the situation after conception, which is something I think is mighty unfair. As an advocate of father's rights, I believe someday this will change. But certainly not until women concede to the fact that a man has just as much a right to choose when and how he wants to be a father as a women does to choose when and how she wants to be a mother.

Thank you for proving to me just how close-minded most people are on the subject.

Thanks for sharing.

I wish you well.

AVictimNoLonger,

I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if this question has been asked of you before.

Considering the possibility that abortion rights might NOT be available for women on a federal level in the future (there are several changes coming to the Supreme Court, afterall), would you revise your opinion about men's responsiiblity if women no longer had the option to legally terminate?

I've often heard the argument as you present it (men should have similar options to women) but I've never heard it addressed with respect to (what I think is a realistic) a situation in which those rights become unavailable to women.

Mys

Not at all....

Even if the right to an abortion were taken away (and I hope that doesn't happen, as I am pro-choice) the woman would still have the right to give her child up for adoption. I know a couple who broke up shortly after conceiving, the woman wanted to give the child up for adoption and the man wanted to raise it himself. The woman was adamant that she would not allow the father to adopt the child and raise her by himself. After a lot of research the man concluded that unless he had the financial resources to support a lengthy courtroom battle there wasn't much he could do about it. Fortunately they reconciled and are currently raising the little girl together, but you have to wonder if he didn't get back together with her simply to have the right to raise his own child.

Why should it only be the woman who has the right to decide when or when not to become a parent?

I didn't read all the posts but I wll respond to this;
Specifically on whether men should have any say on their financial or social obligations generated by the conception and carrying to term of any pregnancy to which they are a party.

That if a man makes the clear statement within the first trimester that he will not bear any liability or obligations to that child once born, he becomes "free and clear" of any future related responsibility
I believe that decision is already made as soon as they drop their pants (and before the actual horizontal bop).

Why should it only be the woman who has the right to decide when or when not to become a parent?


Uh...I will give my opinion on this whole subject..from a medical perspective.

Men cannot get pregnant...If so, this whole arguement or issue or whatever...would be reversed in your logic.

Being that men can't get preggers, THEIR REPRODUCTIVE RESPONSIBILITY IS TO ENSURE THAT THE SPERM DOES NOT GET TO THE EGG.

But how you say??? HOW TO STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING?????

EASY. A WS KEEPS HIS "LITTLE FRIEND" IN HIS PANTS. HE DOES NOT ENGAGE IN THE ACT OF PROCREATION...OR ELSE HE IS INSPECTING HIS CONDOMS AND MAKING DARN SURE THE OTHER PARTY IS ON B.C. MEANING THE PILL.

That's their responsibility.

FOR A WS, THE CONDOM ISN'T ENOUGH. IF THEY'RE GONNA BE STUUUUUPID, AND CHEAT...THEN THEY SHOULD ENSURE THAT THEY WILL NOT BRING MORE SUFFERING ONTO THEIR FAMILY...unless they want a sitch like yours or mine.

Once the baby is created, THE WOMAN CARRIES THE CHILD...HER HEALTH CAN BECOME AT RISK (I oughta know this one...9 days in hospital), and other issues can occur. This is primarily why the courts imho, view the carrying of the child many times up to the woman. However, I have a friend and his xfiancee got preggers. He took her to court immediately b/c she wanted an abortion and he had a legal right. He fought for the life of the child and now he's the single dad to a wonderful 4 year old.

I think it's a cop out that a WS says that they were roped into something. Nah.

They were NOT THINKING WITH THE CORRECT HEAD.

Let's put the blame where the blame truly lies...not with the OW....but with the WS WHO DOES NOT EITHER ABSTAIN OR DOES NOT DO THE FOLLOWING:
*PUT A HAT ON WILLY AND LOOK AT HAT TO MAKE SURE NO HOLES, ETC.
*MAKE SURE HIS PARTNER (AND VERIFIES) THAT SHE IS ON THE PILL...

BUT THE WS NOT ABSTAINING IS THE WHOLE DARN REASON THIS THREAD EXISTS.

Are you saying this also in context of a married couple ... if they have an "oops" and become pregnant due to failed contraception ... WIFE refuses to get the abortion her HUSBAND wants her to have ... are you saying HUSBAND should be able to deny his parental responsibility after-the-fact of conception and before the birth?