|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3 |
How can a person who has decided to leave their spouse and child for another person, thereby ending their marriage, make the decision to get committed to another person and ultimately get married again? And even more boggling, how can two people who have both done this same thing decide to be committed to each other? I guess they find comfort in each other, and if one can do it, why not two. But am I the only one who thinks this is crazy? If our marriage was a committment and she decided to break it, then what could be going thru her head to think that she could be committed to someone else, and why would it be different or better than the committment she had to me? If she broke the first marriage, then what could marriage really mean to her and why would it be important to do it again? Just the fact that she thinks that little of marriage just makes me think that it's really just a piece of paper and the discounts on insurance and stuff. I mean if two people like that decide they want to be married, then the idea kind of loses its luster for me, making it seem unimportant. Does any of this make sense?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 292
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 292 |
Part of it is that WS's lose perspective and as I've read in some of the literature here, their "brain gets taken over by an alien". They jump through a bunch of mental/emotional hoops to justify what they do, so much so that it looks pretty strange from the outside.
Part of it is the belief that it wasn't the relationship (or lack of it) that was the cause of their unhappiness, it was the fact that they were with the wrong person. So, the solution is (from their perspective) is "find the right person, and I'll be happy". They believe that this new marriage will work because this new person is thier "soulmate".
~Big Guy
BigGuy1965a118 @ MatchDotCom Currently a RENTER. Still working on my TAKER. Looking for the one who'll hold my hand at 85.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 176
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 176 |
Keep in mind that most WS have rewritten history. They have it in their mind that they were in horrible marriages with horrible spouses who did horrible things. That's how they excuse their behavior. IF they claim their behavior at all. Mine still denies an affair.
So, leaving their marriage was, in their way of thinking, the ONLY thing they could do to be happy.
cm
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,430
Member
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,430 |
MIke91~~
I was just talking to a friend this morning about this very thing. My thought is, he left our marriage,(wife&children)to be with this "wonderful" person. He moved in with her as soon as divorce is final, and got married this year (1.5 yr after d. final).
I am at the 2.6 mark since he left, still working on me, to be as great as I can be to have a relationship again. I have thought several times, how can I need this time to heal myself and resolve the ending of a long term marriage and all the goes with that, and he went straight from an 18 year marriage to his "perfect" woman.
I'm left with the only thought that has to be. I don't believe it's that perfect. Even though I believe this, I still question it. It puzzles me how they can go from a long term marriage into this "ideal/fantasy" life they have created with this other person.
Maybe they are right, maybe this is their true soulmate, who knows. Maybe we are the crazy ones. But, hopefully one day, we will all find true fulfilling relationships that inspire us to be our best. I don't dwell on this as much as I once used to, so time does have a way of dealing with those thoughts.
We will see what the others have to say. I do understand where your coming from. Karona
Divorced 12/17/2003
Formerly KEB1205 Reg 9/02
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260 |
I understand completely where you are coming from Mike. Mine is exactly the same situaion - except my WH and OW decided to start trying to add kids to the mix before either divorce was even final.
TBG and cm are right, they are masters of deception, including self-deception. My XH and I had 10 years of pretty much stable marriage. At least I wasn't kicking him out every other day like OW has done since he moved in with her. Silly me, I thought actually staying together and trying to work through the problems was the best way, not trying to live out an episode of the Jerry Springer show.
Even though I know there's a lot of self-deception going on there, which is what makes it possible for them to do these things, I spend a lot of time thinking the same things you stated here. I guess sometimes when behavior is SO illogical, no matter how much we understand what's behind it, we just can't wrap our minds around the actual actions anyway.
osxgirl (A.K.A. Penguin!)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,345
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,345 |
If she broke the first marriage, then what could marriage really mean to her and why would it be important to do it again? Just the fact that she thinks that little of marriage just makes me think that it's really just a piece of paper and the discounts on insurance and stuff. Hmmm, well, the previous posters have focused on the wayward spouse aspect of the question, and how their fantasies are usually just that. But, I would like to extend the discussion to the questions that Mike posted above, which has little to do with WS aspects of ending a marriage, but deals more with anyone who decided to end a marriage, and how we can trust them to honor their commitments in the future. I have had the same question when I started dating and meeting women who were the ones who initiated the divorce (BTW, I am not talking about those who, like me, initiated the divorce because their WS has moved out and refused to get off the fence - I am talking about people who initiated divorce because they "weren't happy".) I have probably met about 50 women over the past 5 years, and I am guessing that 48 of them were the ones who chose to end their marriages. Now, of course every one of them had a "good" reason to do it ("he was focused on the computer", "he was mean to me", "he ignored me", etc), but the same question that Mike brought up was lingering in my head - "If they chose to end one commitment, why would I trust them to honor the next commitment?". Sure, the obvious answer (one that most everyone uses) is "Oh, I'll choose better next time", "we were too different", and no doubt there is some validity to it. I certainly hope that I learned enough to know how to choose better next time. But still, I think the question is a good one, and I don't think there is a good answer to it. I firmly believe that if a person ends a marriage, in the absence of an affair or abuse, then it is reasonable to question their suitability for another commitment. Note, I am NOT saying that such a person is NOT suitable for marriage, I am just saying that their past actions say something about them, and it is reasonable to think about the implications. I hope that this thread does not disintegrate into another "would you date someone who was a former WS?" argument, because no doubt every single person who intiated divorce felt justified in doing so. But it would be interesting for me to hear others' opinion on how they view someone who initiated their divorce (realizing that every story is unique and different). For me personally, I have conceded that most women I'll meet will be the ones who initiated the divorce, and so I try to understand what made them decide to do so, especially if they had kids with that person. I have also realized that unless they are really stupid, they can inevitably present a very good argument for why they left, and so my job becomes one of observing them during dating, and learning through numerous conversations why they left. In more than one case I learned enough to see that they would have no qualms about leaving again if they became "unhappy", and those women I would not want to marry. Any other thoughts? AGG
Last edited by AGoodGuy; 08/10/05 01:14 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,247
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,247 |
ugh. I don't know that I see much difference in this post than the "dating a WS" post. Not only are FWS not dating material, but they are certainly not marriage material either.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 292
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 292 |
It all boils down to a question of trust.
At its most basic level, trust is [edit: making decisions based on] the ability to accurately predict the choice/behavior of another person. And as AGG says, that only comes through time, observation, and an understanding of how that person thinks.
Does a past affair accurately predict what someone will do in the future? Maybe, maybe not. It depends. Looking at someone's past to predict thier future is kinda like driving down the road looking only through the rear view mirror. It works as long as the road doesn't change.
When it comes to WS's the question you have to answer is, is this person static or is he/she a different person? Have they learned from the experience? Have they grown? Has the road they travel changed?
Trust is earned through consistant behavior. Absolutely, if you have done something destructive in the past, it should take a very long period of consistancy to demonstrate change. The more destructive, the longer the period. And for some people who've been hurt, that period can last longer than a lifetime.
Last edited by TheBigGuy; 08/11/05 10:28 AM.
~Big Guy
BigGuy1965a118 @ MatchDotCom Currently a RENTER. Still working on my TAKER. Looking for the one who'll hold my hand at 85.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,345
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,345 |
ugh. I don't know that I see much difference in this post than the "dating a WS" post. Not only are FWS not dating material, but they are certainly not marriage material either. Lexxxy, I am sensing (perhaps incorrectly) that something in my post (since you replied to my post) frustrates or upsets you. I am curious to know what that something is, since my intent was simply to continue the discussion without passing judgement - yet it seems that it didn't come across that way to you. Would you be kind enough to tell me what bothered you? Thanks, AGG
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 124
Member
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 124 |
If she broke the first marriage, then what could marriage really mean to her and why would it be important to do it again? Just the fact that she thinks that little of marriage just makes me think that it's really just a piece of paper and the discounts on insurance and stuff. Hmmm, well, the previous posters have focused on the wayward spouse aspect of the question, and how their fantasies are usually just that. But, I would like to extend the discussion to the questions that Mike posted above, which has little to do with WS aspects of ending a marriage, but deals more with anyone who decided to end a marriage, and how we can trust them to honor their commitments in the future. I have had the same question when I started dating and meeting women who were the ones who initiated the divorce (BTW, I am not talking about those who, like me, initiated the divorce because their WS has moved out and refused to get off the fence - I am talking about people who initiated divorce because they "weren't happy".) I have probably met about 50 women over the past 5 years, and I am guessing that 48 of them were the ones who chose to end their marriages. Now, of course every one of them had a "good" reason to do it ("he was focused on the computer", "he was mean to me", "he ignored me", etc), but the same question that Mike brought up was lingering in my head - "If they chose to end one commitment, why would I trust them to honor the next commitment?". Sure, the obvious answer (one that most everyone uses) is "Oh, I'll choose better next time", "we were too different", and no doubt there is some validity to it. I certainly hope that I learned enough to know how to choose better next time. But still, I think the question is a good one, and I don't think there is a good answer to it. I firmly believe that if a person ends a marriage, in the absence of an affair or abuse, then it is reasonable to question their suitability for another commitment. Note, I am NOT saying that such a person is NOT suitable for marriage, I am just saying that their past actions say something about them, and it is reasonable to think about the implications. I hope that this thread does not disintegrate into another "would you date someone who was a former WS?" argument, because no doubt every single person who intiated divorce felt justified in doing so. But it would be interesting for me to hear others' opinion on how they view someone who initiated their divorce (realizing that every story is unique and different). For me personally, I have conceded that most women I'll meet will be the ones who initiated the divorce, and so I try to understand what made them decide to do so, especially if they had kids with that person. I have also realized that unless they are really stupid, they can inevitably present a very good argument for why they left, and so my job becomes one of observing them during dating, and learning through numerous conversations why they left. In more than one case I learned enough to see that they would have no qualms about leaving again if they became "unhappy", and those women I would not want to marry. Any other thoughts? AGG I think you'll find some answers here... have you read any of Harley's books or the articles on this site? Why Women Leave Men Marriages aren't usually considered unconditional committments....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 169
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 169 |
The fact that they would have “no qualms about dropping another commitment” is scary. At this point in my life, if I heard that someone left because they “weren’t happy” I would try to figure out how they voiced their unhappiness to their partner. In my case, my WW admits to not being able to vocalize her needs for over a year. She became unhappy and chose to have an affair.
Based on my past experience, I would ask what the WS did to try and save the marriage or convey that they weren’t happy. Communication is key and perhaps two people just aren’t compatible in this regard, but it also could be that the WS is not able to voice her unhappiness in a commitment. Perhaps their afraid of conflict?
Married 3 years
Me(BS): 33
WW: 30
D-Day 5/21/05
Divorced - it's over and my life has now begun
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,578
Member
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,578 |
Mike91,
Why try to make sense out of something that is intrinsicly WRONG! Cheating to me is about breaking a promise.
If your marriage is broken, you fix it. If you cannot fix it you get out in a respectful way.
The rules as I see them are not that complicated:
Don't date married people, and if you're married, don't date. Married people who date are unhappy, dishonest, and confused, or they're people who use other people. They can whine until doomsday about their emotional needs not being met or whatever! The bottom line is who even wants to be married to someone with so little integrity?
Married people who date lie. And if this person really does get divorced, they either need recovery time, or they are the kind who will cheat on you since the pattern has already been established.
You'll be viewed either as someone who cheats (if you're the married one) or as someone who has so few scruples that you'd date someone else's spouse.
If the person you're thinking of dating has been married or you've been married, the waiting period is one whole year after the divorce has become final. To me this is such a crucial and important point: WAIT ONE FULL YEAR AFTER THE DIVORCE HAS BECOME FINAL! No exceptions.
Me: 56 H: 61 DD: 13 and hormonal DS: 20
Oldest son died 1994 @ age 8
Happily married 30+ years
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,345
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,345 |
have you read any of Harley's books or the articles on this site? Yes Jon, I have read most of Harley's books and articles, and have been on these forums for around 5 years now. I am quite familiar with Harley's thoughts about ENs and LBs, and how excessive LBs and inadequate meeting of ENs can cause marriage trouble. So I am not questioning why people become unhappy in marriages, if that is how interpreted my musings. Nor were my questions intended to make someone feel inadequate for being the one to file for divorce, as I suspect another poster interpreted them. What I wanted to do was simply continue the topic that Mike brought up, i.e. how do people trust a person's level of commitment if that person was the initiator of a divorce in a previous marriage. I apologize if this question makes some people uncomfortable, but I believe that it is no more an irrational or unfair thing to consider before marrying someone than many other things we consider before marrying someone, such as their background, values, outlooks on life, etc. Marriages aren't usually considered unconditional committments.... Of course not, they are quite conditional, as we all know. The question that I like to answer with women I date is what caused them to decide to leave the marriage - a spouse's affair, a spouse's abuse, neglect, unhappiness, boredom, a better deal on the horizon, etc. You may think that this is judgemental and should be none of my business, and if so, I accept your position. But for me, getting serious with a person without trying to understand their past is like going into the future blindfolded. AGG
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 613
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 613 |
To pieta: Great Post. Very refreshing. I agree with you 100%. Interesting isn't it, how life (and love) is really very basic. If arrows get fired your way because you're frank - just duck and continue on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> mike91: Agreed on all points. Great topic. Karona: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> AGG, Bigguy: Yes! The fact that they would have “no qualms about dropping another commitment” is scary. At this point in my life, if I heard that someone left because they “weren’t happy” I would try to figure out how they voiced their unhappiness to their partner. In my case, my WW admits to not being able to vocalize her needs for over a year. She became unhappy and chose to have an affair.
Based on my past experience, I would ask what the WS did to try and save the marriage or convey that they weren’t happy. Communication is key and perhaps two people just aren’t compatible in this regard, but it also could be that the WS is not able to voice her unhappiness in a commitment... timn420: Exactly! It still boils down to core-values & character and always will. If those traits are consistent (truly consistent) with both spouses, other "differences" simply won't matter. FR
You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you stop to look fear in the face. Challenges can be stepping stones or stumbling blocks. It’s just a matter of how you look at them. The purpose of life is to live it, to reach out eagerly and without fear for newer and richer experience
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260 |
AGG -
I see completely where you're coming from. Yes, my XH was a WS, but was that the reason we ended up divorced? Only indirectly. I was willing to work through it and try to save the marriage. And although I refused to file the actual divorce paperwork, I am the one who ended up intiating it by insisting that we get the settlement agreement taken care of so I could protect myself. When he asked if I was going to file the divorce paperwork, I informed him that the settlement agreement took care of the part of the divorce that was important to me, that I was not seeing anyone and had no intention of getting married anytime real soon, and if I thought I would get to that point and we weren't divorced yet, then I would take care of it. I told him if it was all that important to him, he needed to file. But by that point, it was clear I really couldn't have been convinced to try and reconcile again.
So, why did I finally call it quits. Yes, being unhappy had a lot to do with it. He had emotionally abused me for a lot of years, and I was finally realizing how much better I felt when I wasn't around him.
But that wouldn't have been enough for me to seek a divorce. Why? Because the vow I made said for better or worse, 'til death do us part.
What pushed me to that point was his incessant lying about everything, and his inability to stay faithful. We went to marriage counseling for over 2 months, during which time he was living with OW and lying about it. He had not only broken those vows to me, but he had done it with one of the very few ways that I believe, according to the bible, is a legitimate reason for divorce. I couldn't trust him.
Being unhappy was never a reason - if it were, I would have divorced him at 4 or 5 years in at the latest. We would never have made it to 10+.
I'll even admit that I STILL struggle with this to a certain extent. Though I know it was the right decision, there's still a voice in the back of my mind saying that I promised until DEATH. (Of course, I try not to let that thinking continue, since it usually just ends up with me fantasizing that something happnes to him and he dies, which is NOT at all a good thing.) And I didn't just promise him, I promised God. The only thing that makes it at least somewhat acceptable to me is that God did give this escape clause for cases like mine.
So, I can understand very much questioning why a person chose divorce. Because if the person didn't take the vow, which said that death was the only thing that could break it, seriously the first time, why would you think it would be different with them a second time?
And, as AGG said, I do believe in giving the person a chance to show that they've grown, and could take the vow seriously the next time - but they definitely would have to convince me.
I don't talk to my XH at all, and wouldn't break that NC for this, but any number of times I've wanted to e-mail him and ask him if he and OW will write their own vows to say "until death do us part, or until I realize that he/she isn't "the one," or until I'm just not happy anymore, or until I'm bored.......
osxgirl (A.K.A. Penguin!)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3 |
Wow! People really get off the topic here. Seems like some people read the post and then start firing off about whatever they are angry about. Very few people here understood my question even slightly. I was just trying to ask the simple question of how a person who decides that a committment can be broken can then decide to make another committment, and think it will be different. To those who really read the question and responded appropriately, thank you.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 260 |
Well, I know I wandered a little, so sorry. But I did try to mostly stick to the original topic.
I think your question, though, is something that those of us who did not break that committment will never really understand, and we should be thankful for that. It means we actually had a grasp of what we were promising.
Those who can break their marriage vows and then go on to make those vows with someone else.... well, it may be different in different cases. I think with some, it's an extension of the fog, and they feel justified because the OP is their "soulmate" and they were never REALLY supposed to be with their spouse in the first place. Is it right? No. But is it one way they justify it. Absolutely.
In some cases, I think they just don't grasp the magnitude of what they are promising at all. When my ex and I were going through these discussions, he asked "well, how can I call it off with OW when I don't know if things will work out with us? Then I might lose both of you." I don't remember exactly how the conversation got to this point after that, but eventually I told him "The way I see it is that we have no other choice but to make this work out." He said "no, that's not true. If it doesn't work out, we can get divorced." My answer? "Divorce isn't an option. The only way to get through how hard this is going to be is if we don't have any other choice. And for me, there isn't. We have to make it work, because that's the only choice there is."
I could not get him to see my way of thinking on that one no matter what I said. To his way of thinking, divorce was just one option. To mine, it wasn't an option at all. The only option was to make the marriage work.
And maybe that's another key to how they can go on to make the same committment to someone else and expect it to be different. Perhaps many of the ones who have done this don't see marriage as being truly "until death do you part." Since divorce is an option by law, they can't even see HOW you could possibly take it out of consideration.
And I think you're right - choosing not to honor a commttment, and then making the same committment to someone else, HAS changed how a lot of people view those vows. I believe that to many, the phrase "until death do us part" is just a tradition, words you say when you're getting married that don't really mean anything, you just say them because they are tradition.
The scary part is - how do you know if someone will ultimately choose to honor those vows or not. In my case, ex and I had talked about it, and I thought, based on what he said, that he felt the same way about marriage, that death means until one of us physically dies, and that the fact that the state allows divorce doesn't matter at all, because divorce wasn't an option for us. I was wrong.
osxgirl (A.K.A. Penguin!)
|
|
|
Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
0 members (),
1,146
guests, and
86
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,624
Posts2,323,520
Members72,026
|
Most Online6,102 Jul 3rd, 2025
|
|
|
|