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Have been posting on "Plan A/B", but lurking on GQII, and thought I might get some responses more quickly here- please, I need advise and any encouragement I can get !
To give some background: Five year ago my H was diagnosed with depression and obsessive-compulsive disorder, and he has been on meds ever since, also tried IC twice but did not stick with it long term. Four years ago, he started an inappropriate "friend- ship" with a girl over the internet. I found out very soon after it started, called her, and confronted him. He was mad, "ranted and raved", but she ended it and for a short time he appeared to be working on the M. Up to this point, things had not been "perfect" but I felt like we had a pretty good marriage and had a lot going for us ! Within a couple of months, I discovered that a "business" relationship he was supposedly having with a couple was actually an EA with just the woman (the husband had recently died). She was older with kids, which seemed like an odd choice, but had $$$, which I think appealed to H, plus he likes to be the "rescuer", so liked helping her out in her "time of need". I called the OW, who did know he was married, but she had made everything sound far different than was true. I moved out for a month, during which H really changed his tune- he called often, wanted to get together, and eventually asked if we could get back together. Things were good for awhile- I found MB and read the books, learned about LB's, tried to improve myself and our M. H had bouts of his depression, but has continued to try different medicines and did try some IC.
Around the middle of last year, H started to seem really weird about SF- never any interest, said he "didn't feel like it", was tired, etc. I atributed it partly to the meds, since AD's can have a side effect of low libido. (and H never had high libido anyway). H talked to Dr about it, had hormone test, tried hormone patches, switched medicines, but really no change. Reading I did made me wonder if he might have sexual addiction, but didn't know for sure.
This year, we have had periods where things have been good, but have also had times off and on where H seems secretive, glued to his phone, spending long hours on computer, distant, and has had some strange charges on his credit card,and cash in his briefcase. When confronted, he has always had an "explanation", but there are a lot of things still unexplained, at least to my satisfaction.
The strange behavior has continued- I have "snooped" and found charges for the local "stripper" bar, expensive restaurants, and internet web sites on his credit card bill. Went online to look at our cell phone bill, and found he had been sending and receiving numerous text messages. Found one number with numerous calls, so called it and it was a woman. Got up my nerve and called her- she was suprised ! Said had "hooked up" with H on an internet site, and had just talked and emailed with him, however, he had told her he was single, no kids, successful business and lots of $$$ !!! (he has two kids from previous R, just started his own business and we are very much in debt !) She seemed sincere- said she wanted nothing to do with him since he'd lied, and if he called her again she would tell him so.
I told H and he was mad (naturally), "ranted and raved", said we were "through", etc..(the usual) but I hoped it might put an end to it and I'd get more of a chance to meet his needs, shine with a good Plan A. Things, however, didn't seem to change. H was still secretive, quiet, gone alot, not willing to talk about anything, and when asked about working on things, getting counseling, or anything else he didn't like, would say something like " there is no "us", or "we aren't together". Hurtful, but I tried not to react to his comments.
Several weeks ago, found out H was working on a plan to purchase a house. We had wanted and tried to do this a few times in past years, planning to "rehab" an older home, either for investment purposes or to live in ourself. This time, he didn't ask me but just went about it himself, using his money from his business and only his name. I didn't say anything at first, but then after he got an email about the loan on our email, the secret was out and he knew that I knew. Talked about it, and couldn't get any explanation- he would just say "it didn't concern me", or it was just his project. Needless to say, I feel very hurt and left out that he did this without me. The loan was supposed to close today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Several weeks ago, H said he had to go out of town over a weekend with a business associate. He has had to do this a few times (legit) so it was possible, but I figured he was going away with some OW, possibly from these "internet" connections. He went, never called all weekend, and stuck with his story, while I had a long, miserable weekend alone. Just saw his new credit card bill, and besides more expensive restaurant charges, he had charges for a hotel and restaurants in a different town (not where he said he was going.) Also saw the new online cell bill, and still has lots of text messages as well as calls, to yet another phone number. Called it, and it's another woman. I'm assuming this may have been who he went out of town with, but no way to know for sure. Felt sick, as the place he went is a fun, mountain resort where WE have gone several times. The bills were at restaurants where WE have always gone. I feel violated that he took somewhere else there and so sick of the lies !
Am feeling like H is very addicted to the internet relationships and involved with one or more people he is meeting on there, to what degree, I don't know ( ONS, EA, PA). Don't know if his emotional/mental problems are contributing as well, and if his medicine has any bearing on any of it, so don't know if the "normal" MB plans and materials will work, but I'm trying. (dont' know what else to do).
Just so tired, emotionally and mentally, from all the "up and down". I never know what to expect any day, and almost nothing would suprise me anymore, which is sad. Last weekend, he went in to work for several hours on Sat. (somewhat unusual). I figured he was either on the phone or computer with his little "friends". (talked several times and he was really at his office). Came home briefly, then went to the gym (normal for him). Home briefly again, then went out and came home after midnight. Was in a very bad mood, didn't want to talk or do anything with me, and said "there is no US".
The next day, however, he was up, cheerful, and asked me to do things with him all day. We had a pleasant time, got along all day, and did some things around the house in the evening. Nice, but SO confusing !!
I can only assume this weird behavior and very drastic change is reflecting great confusion on his part, and maybe going back and forth in his mind on whether to stay in the M, or D. ?
This week has also been up and down. He asked me to make one of his favorite meals on Monday night and then was over an hour late getting home ! He gave a very lame excuse-
Wed night we went out to eat, left the restaurant at the same time, and he got home 50 minutes after I did. The times he "disappears" don't seem to be long enough to be getting together with someone so I assume he is on the phone !!?
Today, after seeing the cell bill and seeing many calls to this new number and woman, I am trying to decide if calling her and exposing him would do any good. I know it is normally considered a good thing since it may bust up the relationship and give a better chance of meeting needs and turning the WS back towards home, however, in case of H, I wonder if he would just find yet another person in the internet, since it seems to be his addiction, more than a particular person ? Seems like this could just keep going on indefinitely unless/until he gets some serious therapy and also probably a change of medicine. (He indicated he wanted to go back to IC, but a month later has not set anything up). I'm also fearful that him finding out I exposed might really push him away from me and working on the M, or , in his mental state, might cause him to really flip out or go out drinking (which has been an issue).
With all the issues, I am losing hope and feel very powerless- like I'm just taking whatever "crumb" I can get, and am at his mercy. I am trying to stick with Plan A, work on myself and entertain myself, but it's really hard. I can't tell if it's doing any good, or if he's just being a cake-eater and enjoying having things both ways.
Seems like Plan B would almost be easier (I'd be out of his craziness) but I don't make much and can't afford a seperate place. Both of us had job changes last year resulting in lower income and our finances are very strained right now. Maybe it would be better if he moved to the house he just bought, although since it needs work and he is going to "rehab" it, I don't know if he could stay there.
Thoughts, ideas, suggestions or advice please !! I think I am caught in the twilight zone and can't get out. Anne
BS(me) 41 WS 38 No kids together, but H has two daughters from previous relationships. Married- 7 years, together for 10
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Anne, I agree that you should move to Plan B in order to detach and protect yourself. He has much greater issues here than can be handled by Marriage Builder' principles. This is not a marital problem but a character issue. MB is set up to address aberrations of character aggravated [usually] by marital problems. Your H is not doing this because of marital problems but because it is a way of life. This is not an aberration of character, but rather, it is his character. And MB cannot change someone's character or personality.
Now, I am not saying that he can't change. Only that YOU can't change him. He is the only person who can do that, and he must want to change. Sure, you can do things to motivate him to change, but I don't see that any of your efforts have ever done that in the past.
I guess it comes down to a matter of acceptance. I would suggest accepting him how he is, accepting that you can't change him and making a decision on that basis. You must decide if you want to live with a man who is not faithful and move forward accordingly.
Sorry you here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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This is where Plan A and Plan B as described on the site ... are not going to be ~enough~ for your marriage situation.
Are YOU getting counseling alone? It would be useful for you to get some professional input on your coping methods.
All of us, one time or another, need out faulty thinking pointed out to us.
Sounds like you are too close to the situation to clearly see your best way to deal with serious chronic problems.
So, welcome to GQII .... and whatever we can do we will ... however, PLEASE, seek outside help for YOU ... and get yourself stronger.
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks MelodyLane and Pepperband, I appreciate your thoughts and support.
I have been going to IC for about a month now, and do find it helpful. My C has a background in analysis as well as having been a drug/alcohol counselor, so she has been able to give me some interesting feedback and thoughts about what she thinks of H's behaviors. Of course, the information and background she's using is coming from my observances and not him directly, but she does feel like he exhibits traits of addictive and co-dependent type behaviors (which are "related" to obsessive-compulsive disorder, something he has already been diagnosed with). I feel that he has gotten worse since starting a new medication about two months ago, and she said he might even be on the wrong type of medicine, but also can't do anything about this until he decides to take action.
She has reminded me, as both of you did, that I can't change HIM - he is the only one who can decide to get help and go through with it. I was encouraged when, about a month ago, he told me he wanted to go back to IC and asked me to help him find out about our insurance, who he could go to, etc. I did the research and gave him a list of providers, but he has done nothing with it, so far, so don't know if he "chickened out", or what.
Her other suggestions were working on ME- with things like stress relief (exercise, journaling, support groups, praying, fun activities), learning to "entertain" myself (H has become almost sole source of recreation and companionship) and trying to be more independent. I am trying to do these things- just feel so down that sometimes it's hard to get motivated to do anything.
I have done a few things to try to protect myself- opened my own bank account (although I don't have much to put in it) and took copies of all our important paperwork on the house, land we own, bank accounts, loans, etc. I am also checking to see if I can find some classes I can take or something I can do to make more money, as right now our finances are very tight, and if we D I will need to have more income. Feel very sad to realize I may lose my house, car(wouldn't be able to afford) as well as my M and H, who used to be my best friend before he was like this.
As I mentioned H just bought another house for "rehab" purposes, and perhaps he will go there to stay soon. In this case, we will go into Plan B, which might actually be less stressful for me.
Melodylane..you asked if he is an alcoholic. I'm not actually sure if he would be considered an alcoholic, but he does have some sort of issue with alcohol. We have a fully-stocked bar at our house that he's never touched in years, and he never even has a drink out with dinner or for a special occasion, but then periodically he will go through a period where he goes to the bar every weekend for a few weeks and drinks (almost like on a "binge") and he sometimes drives home when he shouldnt be, which scares me to death. (He has previously had a DUI-)He's also not supposed to be drinking while taking AD's !
I will continue to post and appreciate any further feedback, suggestions or support from everyone. Anne
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Updated on 8/15- Please give feedback and feelings about EXPOSURE ! Melodylane, Pepperband, others ?
H continues to be secretive, defiant, very FOGGY ! Still don't know any details, but did get online access to H's most recent phone bill Friday, and found repeat calls to the same number, starting about the end of June and continuing into August. I called it and got voicemail of a female.
Also got access to H's business credit card bill, and found more mysterious charges. He had two charges at a restaurant, one for $100 and one over $300- both on weekdays, so must have been for a lunch. That much, though, doesn't seem like it'd be lunch for just two, so wondered if this was possibly a business lunch where he bought for s several people and not OW related. Also found charges that show H was not where he said he was going when he went out of town on "business" several weeks ago. He was in a different town, with charges for a hotel, grocery store and two restaurants, with amounts that looks like a meal for "2".
Got access to H's actual phone Friday night and found the listing for this female, but she is listed with a business name/type, and H has previously said this person is someone he's doing business with. No way to really find out, so I'm a bit hesitant to EXPOSE, in case she really is a business contact and not A ? Or, maybe he is saying this and putting this with her number to "throw me off" ?
In the past few days, H has seemed angry, although I've not done anything different or changed my behavior or actions. He ranted and raved on a phone conversation about how we are "over", "not together", and that I need to be accepting it. (is he trying to convince me or himself ?) He says nothing is any of my business, I shouldn't what he does or care since there is no "us", etc. all things that sound very FOGGY to me. If I question or say anything he doesn't like, he threatens with moving out or filing D paperwork.
Should I expose anyway- knowing he will be VERY angry ? I'm afraid it might push him over the edge to either move out and/or file the D paperwork, just to get back at me. I'm also a bit afraid he might go out drinking.
When H was involved in some A's four years ago, I did call and exposed every time, so he knows I will do this, and probably for this reason, is very strongly telling me to stay out of his business.
Thanks for all help- Anne
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Anne, I just don't see how exposure is going to change anything since you have been through all this before. the problem is that this is a way of life for him and you can't change that. This is something that is way beyond Marriage Builder's capabilities to resolve. I would, instead, rely upon your IC and take steps to protect yourself from him. I would get checked for STD's and protect your finances. I am sorry I can't be more hopeful, but I honestly agree with your IC that you cannot change him, and the issue comes down to accepting him as he is.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks Melodylane- I'm trying to just stay in a "neutral" mood for as long as I can, just trying to be as detached as I can be, and not reacting to the erratic and FOGGY behavior of H. I have tried to do the things I could think of to protect myself financially- I opened my own bank account and have made copies of all the paperwork pertaining to our bank accounts, loans, ownership,etc, just in case they are needed. H has always been good about making sure bills are paid on time, keeping good credit, etc. and I don't really think he is out to s***w me over financially, but with his foggy mind and manipulative behavior, I can't be sure. For the past couple of months, H has been transferring money from his business accounts to our joint accounts for all of our bills, less the amount of my paycheck, but he may get more difficult about this as his money gets tighter. (He just bought a house that he is "rehabbing", so will have a new loan payment to make, just had a car accident and has to pay the deductible, and has been running up big charges on his business credit card with questionable stuff).
H keeps asking me to make a list of the things I want from our house. Don't know if he's just doing this because he plans to move to the other house once it's in decent shape and he's planning what he'll need, if it's just a manipulative "threat" type of thing to hurt/make me mad. I've not done so, and don't really want to. I tried to turn it around and said if there was something he was wanting, HE should make a list and see if I'd agree. What do you think ? I guess I can also ask my IC about this, and/or also maybe a lawyer ?
I know that H has gotten separation/divorce paperwork from the courthouse, but I don't believe he's done anything with it. I don't know if he's just mentioned it as something to be a "threat" to me, really intends to do it, or got it so he could try to show his OW that hes "separated". I have even thought about just getting the paperwork myself so it would "neutralize" him using that as his leverage.
Even though I feel very sad about it and would feel very empty and lonely if he moves out, I am beginning to feel like it would be a relief to be removed from his crazy, foggy world and constant mood changes.
We went through this same thing about 4 years ago, and to the best of remembrance, he is following almost exactly the same pattern. I moved out for a month and did sort of a Plan B, which seemed to be the thing that brought him out of the fog and he asked if we could get back together. I'd like to think that could happen again this time, but don't know if I have the energy and patience to wait it out. If it did, I would also certainly know not to just take him back- he would have to get into therapy and be making some progress and following the MB principles too.
Guess it's just a matter of deciding if it's worth it, or if I have the strength to just end it. Either feels like a death sentence right now... Anne
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