Hello,

I'm sure this is a common question but here I am asking anyway.

I know the answer is for me to work on my love busters (to eliminate them) and hopefully he will improve on his but it isn't working and I've worked on many of my love buster behaviors.

Angry outbursts are my worst love buster but my husband cannot differentiate between me calmly stating that I did not like something he did with an angry outburst.

We can only exist peacfully if I allow him to do what he wants. If I have ANY requests of him to do anything other than what he wants to do it causes a fight.

We have 3 kids and he knows that I won't leave him because of the kids and our religious beliefs so he knows he does not have to work on our marriage.

Of course he has many strengths. He loves God and will pray with me. He provides for the family and doesn't yell much and helps out some with some domestic duties (like putting his dinner dishes in the dishwasher, doing boy scouts with the boys, sometimes helping put the kids to bed - when he's here, does his own laundry - because I don't do it good enough - which means perfectly) However, he is passive agressive and he does not see this. He never tells me what he's angry about, he just makes sure I know that he's angry. He gets angry at me easily. He thinks that marriages are never perfect and that I should focus on what we have that is good and I should be able to accept the way our marriage is. He also tells me that because I am a stay at home mom and he can't find another job that will pay the bills other than this difficult job, that I have to accept that this is how it must be. He is stressed out to the max being a perfectionist dealing with a very difficult job. He feels trapped.

He has a home office and works outside of the home in a VERY large territory. He often comes home after I already have the kids in bed. When he is here, he's usually in his office an stressed out. He does, however, manage to get in some surfing when the waves are good. This is one of the biggest issues we fight over. I've told him on what seems like a MILLION occassions that I would not resent surfing so much if I got only a FRACTION of the attention surfing gets. When work is busy he does not have time for me and I accept that because I know how hard his job is. But then the waves are good and suddenly I see that no matter how busy he is at work, he can fit in an hour or two or three for surfing.

I am so miserable. I've tried to make myself happy independent of him but it doesn't work for long because we HAVE to relate to each other because of the kids and simply because we live in the same house.

We've gone to marriage counseling on two different occasions and in both cases it probably made things worse than better. I KNOW that a Marriage Builders weekend would be different but my husband won't consider spending that much money. I've tried to read the concepts in the book to him but he doesn't buy into it - he stops cold at the 15 hours per week saying that that might be fine for someone who has a "regular job" but that his job is too demanding. Trouble is, I'd be happy with 5 hours a week but I live with Zero hours per week of undivided attention.

Well, there it is in a nutshell. Back to my original question. I don't know what to do to get my husband to understand just how miserable I am AND TO ENTER COUNSELING either through a marriage builders weekend or with Dr. Harley via phone counseling. I've battled with depression and it runs in my family so he thinks that my misery is my problem - not his. Not something we need to spend that kind of money on. I also know that we are modeling a terrible relationship for our 3 boys.

Any ideas / suggestions / advice?

Do you think he looks forward to coming home or does he dread it?

I think this is your problem right here:

I'm not saying that your commitment to your marriage is wrong, but if he is POSITIVE that nothing negative is going to happen if he doesn't stop mistreating you and start working on your marriage, then what motivation does he have to change?????

Do you suspect an affair???

I can't remember if the book "Love Must Be Tough" is exclusively for people who's spouses are cheating, but I think it might help.

Another thing that may work, is the Divorce Buster thing.....that's a book by Michele Weiner-Davis. A 180 in your behavior just may make in wake up and smell the coffee. (I don't generally suggest Divorce Busters, but if there is no affair, I don't see what it would hurt).

In short, YOU have to do something, it's obvious he doesn't think anything is wrong, and you should just deal with it.....so it's gonna have to be up to you.

Do some snooping (Under the radar) and see if there isn't something else going on.

DO NOT ignore your gut, if you have the gut feeling something is amiss.......IT IS.

-Caren

Ozarks, I understand. Do you think your H is having an A? If not, I'd bet he's on the verge of it. He's always busy with work, surfing and ignoring you. My WH refuses to go to counseling, too. I think you are in a real danger zone. You cannot and must not say that you will stay in this marriage because of your religion.

He's blaming you for things is a red flag to me. Does he enjoy pushing your buttons? You can't do his laundry well enough? Does he think your cooking is crap, too? Is your house too messy? Are your kids not acting like the kids he thinks he should have?

The surfing thing is a tough one. My oldest son is a surfer. He made our lives miserable when we moved away from the ocean. I think it is as much an addiction as anything. Once they get salt water in their veins, they can't stay out of the water. On the whole, I think surfing is a good thing. It's great exercise, very calming and they spend a lot of time talking to their buddies as they bob up and down waiting to catch a wave. On the negative side, you never know when the waves will be good, where they'll be good or for how long they'll be good. Who is he hanging out with after he surfs? Has he tried to teach your boys to surf?

Has your H ever been a part of the Christian Surfer organization?

Perhaps he does dread it... he must. I used to ask a lot for help and for his attention (which frequently turned into fights) but I've stopped after a few years of this.

I told him that if I ever stopped asking for his attention it would be because I'd built a wall around my heart to protect my feelings. Back when I was begging him for his attention I still cared. Sadly, I want to care and can still muster up some good feelings towards him sometimes but the wall was sucessfully built and now, I don't beg for his attention like I used to which means we fight less.

I don't know really if he dreads coming home. I don't think he knows. He has a VERY VERY hard time acessing ANY of his feelings.

We still do fight however. If ANYTHING comes up that makes me need to ask him to do something, it becomes a fight.

This morning I got up and fixed waffles for the kids. I always make them protein also but on Saturday I'm tired (recouping from the school week where I make full breakfasts and lunches before getting the kids off to school).

He got up and started making himself some eggs so I asked him to put some in the pan for the kids also. His response was "My eggs are done, I'm going to eat them first."

Unlike my usual response which would have been an angry, "why can't you make some for the kids at the same time you're making yours?" I went into the kitchen and said something like, "I feel like you don't care about us when you make eggs for yourself and don't ask if anyone else needs eggs". "When you said, "I'm going to eat mine first, the message I heard was I'm going to take care of my needs first and then I'll address yours". This started a fight because he felt attacked.

This is characteristic of most of our communications. We are either not talking or we are fighting over issues like the above.

So, do you think he dreads coming home - probably I guess.

I think you need to find a different way to communicate with him, ozark, because it sounds like he also feels attacked. It sounds like he feels completely cut off and detached from you and the family, like he is on the outside looking in. As it is now he would much rather go surfing than spend time with you. You realize that, don't you?

That is what needs to change. I think your focus needs to be on attracting him into the marriage and the family instead of doing things to push him away.

Ask yourself if you would want to come home if you were him? Because if I were him, I would have to answer no. He is knocking his brains out trying to support his family but he doesn't feel supported at home, he feels nagged and hounded from what I can see. Do you think he feels appreciated, respected or admired by you? That would explain why he would rather go surfing than spend any time at home. Do you see what I mean? Your tactics are working against you.

Instead, I would focus on ways to attract him back by making him feel admired, valued and respected. Make your home a place to which he looks forward to coming. Stop making it a duty and drudgery to be around you.

Do you have any of Harley's books? I would recommend Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs. Another great one for you would be the Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands by Dr Laura Schlessinger.

[/quote] I'm not saying that your commitment to your marriage is wrong, but if he is POSITIVE that nothing negative is going to happen if he doesn't stop mistreating you and start working on your marriage, then what motivation does he have to change????? [/quote]

I'm not perfect in our marriage and because of this he does not feel that he is mistreating me. Intellectually, he knows our marriage needs work but he is too stressed out trying to provide for the family that he cannot fathom finding any additional resources within himself to devote to the work it would take to do this.

[/quote] Do you suspect an affair??? [/quote]

I do not suspect an affair. I've wondered sometimes how he could possibly not be having an affair considering how miserable we both are (and he's very good looking) but I really do believe that he is working or surfing.

[/quote] I can't remember if the book "Love Must Be Tough" is exclusively for people who's spouses are cheating, but I think it might help. [/quote]

Is this by Dr. Dobson? I've read that book and don't see how it can help me get him into therapy. I don't think he is cheating and I won't threaten a separation - no where to take the kids as my parents live several states away and it would be too much of a terrible thing to do to the kids anyway when their is no affair (at least not with a person).

[/quote] Another thing that may work, is the Divorce Buster thing.....that's a book by Michele Weiner-Davis. A 180 in your behavior just may make in wake up and smell the coffee. (I don't generally suggest Divorce Busters, but if there is no affair, I don't see what it would hurt). [/quote]

What's the gist of their advice? I'll look it up in Google.

[/quote] In short, YOU have to do something, it's obvious he doesn't think anything is wrong, and you should just deal with it.....so it's gonna have to be up to you. [/quote]

Yeah, that's what I'm here for... HOW can I get him to understand just how bad things are? When I try to force the issue after some fighting he gets all apologetic and promises that we'll have a "date" some time... which never transpires.

I've thought about just taking the money out of savings and buying a Marriage Builders weekend reservation but what good would it do if he is furious about the way I did it?

[/quote] Do some snooping (Under the radar) and see if there isn't something else going on.

DO NOT ignore your gut, if you have the gut feeling something is amiss.......IT IS. [/quote]

If I truly suspected an affair, I'd have hired a P.I. a long time ago. The mistress is surfing and his complete refusal to see his perfectionism (which makes his work so unbearable) as something serious enough that he needs counseling over. His job IS a demanding one and others in his industry work long hard hours so he uses this as his excuse to avoid working on his perfectionism.

I tend to be a perfectionist myself so I get sympathetic to his plight and feel like I'm just another problem for him to deal with when I demand that he give me any attention.

ozarks, he doesn't have any intention of going into therapy and it is a lovebuster to try and bully him into going. He only views it as an attempt by you to manipulate his behavior, to change HIM to suit your tastes. He knows that and he also knows how disrespectful it is. I wouldn't even bother with that. It didn't work before and it won't work now. Time to change YOU and see if he reacts in kind to those changes.

p.s. I don't smell an affair here.

You need to do something now before it escalates. Would your H work for a computer or electronics company? Do you live in a high-lost-of-living coastal community? Been there, done that. I'm also reaping the pain that was sown then.

I agree that you need to try a different communication style. When I'm around WH, I often tie a string around my wrist. Whenever I feel like a LB-er is going to come out of my mouth, I tug on the string. It helps to center me.

Personally, I've given up on perfectionism. It doesn't payback the energy it takes.

Instead of getting upset about surfing, maybe you could accompany him. Have a family beach day. I think that surfing is an important outlet for him. Without it, he probably would be having an A. How does he hang out with after he surfs?

What are you doing to try to get him into counseling? I don't suspect and affair.

[/quote]He's blaming you for things is a red flag to me. Does he enjoy pushing your buttons? You can't do his laundry well enough? Does he think your cooking is crap, too? Is your house too messy? Are your kids not acting like the kids he thinks he should have? [/quote]

He does not critize me - he just witholds any compliments. He won't tell me what his needs are or what I'm doing that upsets him, he just makes sure that I know I've done someting wrong.

[/quote] The surfing thing is a tough one. My oldest son is a surfer. He made our lives miserable when we moved away from the ocean. I think it is as much an addiction as anything. [/quote]

Yes, I believe it is an addiction. I hate living here but I'm pretty sure that if I gave him an ultimatum that I had to move back to the hills I love, he would choose here over our family. Of course blaming me for destroying our family by my leaving.

[/quote]Once they get salt water in their veins, they can't stay out of the water. On the whole, I think surfing is a good thing. It's great exercise, very calming and they spend a lot of time talking to their buddies as they bob up and down waiting to catch a wave. On the negative side, you never know when the waves will be good, where they'll be good or for how long they'll be good. Who is he hanging out with after he surfs? [/quote]

Just his surfing buddies talking while still in the parking lot or on the beach. He is ALWAYS the last one out of the water (when it gets too dark) and he's home shortly thereafter.

[/quote]Has he tried to teach your boys to surf? [/quote]
Yes, one of our sons is learning.

[/quote] Has your H ever been a part of the Christian Surfer organization? [/quote]

Would like to but doesn not have the time

What FUN things can YOU TWO DO TOGETHER?

Do you have any common recreational interests.

How is your sex life?

O.K. I think it would take counseling for me to get to the point where I knew what to say or do. I feel like in the example of this morning, I would have to simply let it go. There is no way to address my feelings that would not come across to him as an "attack".

This is where I get stuck because I get so desperately upset. I see him fixing his eggs and I feel like I do ALL of the caregiving for the boys and he gets to do the fun stuff. He goes to church with us but I get me and all 3 kids ready and he only gets himself ready.

I feel like, in order to communicate with him "properly" I have to bury my feelings. I KNOW it will take counseling to help me figure out what to do with the rage that I feel.


Again, I will need counseling to accomplish this. I am so angry that I really don't want to attract him right now. Everything I've done so far has been taken for granted. He told me that I did not care for myself/my looks so I did a 180 degree turn. I colored my hair, changed my wardrobe, fix my makeup and dress up every single day. TONS of comments from friends and even casual acquaintances but only one unsolicited comment from him and that was when he wanted sex. He says I don't fix meals but when I do he does not seem to care one way or the other.

I feel like my trying to "attract him into the marriage and family" would require that I stuff all of my anger and allow him to ignore me while I on the other hand give him the "red carpet treatment". It's o.k. for him to do all kinds of independent behavior but I have to say nothing about it and HOW do I muster up enough "good will" to try to attract him?


I do go stretches where I tell him, "have a good time" when he goes out to surf. I fix him dinners. I initiate sex. It does not change his behavior towards me. I guess I just don't do it long enough but I just burn out because I don't EVER get my emotional need for affection or conversation met. I know I am full of "excuses". It just seems so HARD sometimes.



No. It's hard to muster feelings of appreciation, respect or admiration when I'm treated pretty much as if I'm just here to take care of the kids. I DO try to tell him that I appreciate all of his hard work but he does not hear me at all. He hears anything he perceives as criticism but he never hears me when I tell him that I appreciate something.


I AM trying to do those things. My attempts might come across as feeble though because I'm operating out of a completely empty tank.


I have Dr. Harley's books but he won't read them. I've read them and I've tried to work on my love busters and to meet his emotional needs but as I said, I'm operating out of an empty tank and frequently just run out of fuel. Can it be done by just one person? I HAVE tried. Where do I get the fuel from?

My husband recommended that I get Laura Schlessinger's book. I will.

Fun things - we talk about our need to do them but we never do. No one to watch the kids and we can't come up with any ideas.

We don't have any common recreational interests.

As you can imagine, our sex life is not great. I do initiate sex once in a while because I know it is a need of his but I feel it's a duty because there is NO affection in our marriage and therefore, sex is something I do to meet his need and he probably realizes that it's more of a duty to me and therefore it does not meet his need.

ozarks, but your "anger" is working against you, don't you see? You are angry because he is detached, but your anger pushes him away. You don't need to express each and every feeling to him in the first place. He is not your counselor or your girlfriend, he is your HUSBAND and doesn't want to hear all that.

And yes, maybe you do need counseling to learn to communicate, but I don't think its that difficult to learn on your own. Try checking out the books I recommended above, they will be a great help and you don't need counseling to practice the principles they espouse.

Don't ask him to read Dr Harley's books, it is a lovebuster to try and educate him. Try attracting him into the marriage first and getting him interested in you. Right now, he is only interested in staying away.


Your tank is empty because you are working against yourself. This is a call for some NEW tactics in order to try something that will heal your marriage, instead of damage it.


How do you expect him to respect or appreciate you if you don't show that behavior to him? You can't complain that he gives you none of that when you won't give it to him.

ozarks, I suspect he is doing things to aggravate the problems, too, don't get me wrong. But, the first step is to change your behavior towards him in order to bring him back into the fold. Once he is back in the fold you can work on negotiating some of those things with him. But, you will never get anywhere with DEMANDS. He has to have a motivation to want to change and make you happy and I strongly suspect that he has given up and does not feel he CAN make you happy. That is what I hope you change with a new approach.

Think on this for awhile: when I stopped worrying about 'what am I getting out of this' and started asking myself 'what can I do to make HIM happy' everything changed in my marriage. My H falls all over himself to make me happy now. It was an amazing difference. I think a new approach can bring your H around.

I bet that really turns him on, ozark. Do you know what a lovebuster it is to a man to know that his W doesn't find him desirable and only does it out of "duty?" This is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER. I can see why he probably doesn't feel much affection.

Ditto. Change attitudes.

p.s do you get a break from those boys? Do you have any clubs or activities? Do you exercise? What do you do for yourself?

To the best of my ability (considering my empty love tank) I have tried to work on me. I've made some major changes but they've had NO effect on him.

I started initiating sex - no effect. I started telling him, "have a good time" when he left to go surfing - no effect. I completely stopped asking him to help me get the kids to Church, I did all of the work without complaining - he's glad that he doesn't get nagged anymore.

If he does not react in kind, what is my next step?

Part of me says just try to survive and do what you can to make yourself happy but then: 1) I realize that our kids are going to grow up watching two independent people raising them and they'll have no idea what a healthy marriage looks like and 2) I can't maintain a positive attitude when we are living independent separate lives and fighting whenever we have to discuss something that can't be handled independently.

What do you think would make HIM happy today?