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I'm not one to take a child away from his/her mother. They also need thier dads. She needs to support herself and I don't see why providing the best for your family is putting a job above a child?? The 64.00 C/S is nothing like I've seen before. And if she is looking out for her future and her childs future, then what is so wrong w/ that. There are MANY ways to arrange visitation to work for everyone and be best for the kids. Grown people make these situations and create more headaches by wanting everything to go their way. (not to say that is what you are doing) Just in general. My reaction to problems that come my way is to find good solutions to them, not create more.
She needs to make more money, the child needs to see his father, get together and make a plan! Im sure a 4 yr old really isn't old enough to get the concept of moving like that unless and adult has set them down and explained it to them. If it can remain possitive, then the child will benefit from it, if not, yes it will leave scars left to heal.
Find a POJA w/ H and get w/ the attorney/ mediator or whom ever and get it worked out what is workable to all.
Sunny D
***I DO now - Live, love and laugh ****
BS-39
WS-36
M-12 YRS
Together 14 yrs
D-18
D-12
File D 2-12-03
Rec 10-03
OC born 9-04 - Baby A - My step-son!
Have C & Legal visitation
**We are now working towards the same goal **
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And $63 and some change could hardly keep a guppy alive for a month. If oc mother can provide better, let her. She won't even notice the $64 she isn't getting. I am, personally, appalled that this is the level of child support this child is receiving and everyone here (apparently) thinks that's just grand because the ow is the one suffering and she "deserves" it. Surely as supportive BS, we can't afford to let the ow have a higher standard of living than we enjoy, now could we?
[color:"blue"]I know of people when it's shared 50/50 custody that CS isn't given to EITHER parent, so $63 is more than fair. If that's the problem, then Lizbeth and her H should be receiving CS as well, right? Lizbeth and her H have the same expenses the xow has 50% of the time. [/color]
I think this might be at the heart of the original post. How else do you explain the "sweet deal"? How many of you would "consider" giving up a child for a "sweet deal?"
[color:"blue"]If it was an issue of money, and it could be done legally, then why is Lizbeth's H fighting having the OC move? From what Lizbeth said, the xow is willing to forgo CS, and she will pay for ALL expenses, including travel for the OC. What keeps getting overlooked here is the fact that the xow was refusing visitation before, UNTIL she was slapped with fines and had to pay the court fees! So, with this history, you are saying to just let the xow go with OC and everything will be fine and dandy when the track record shows otherwise? I doubt it has ANYTHING to do with money and EVERYTHING to do with wanting to be able to keep his time with his son! [/color]
The question doesn't require its own thread. Its meant to get you to think critically before answering. [color:"blue"]Here's the double standard that is not often seen here. There is a WH who wishes to be involved in his son's life. There is a BS who has welcome this son into her home, life and family. There is an xow who, even though she knew of the stipulation with moving, still wishes to have it all her way. This xow also has a history of ignoring court orders to suit her own wants. So, we are to say, "Ok, let the xow and OC move 1000 miles away, and we will trust you, who have never proven trust worthy to us before now, that you will NOT file for an increase of CS, you will stick to the visitation schedule, and you will pay all expenses."?!?! MANY xow whine and complain that the WH isn't involved in the OC's life, and now when we have one who is VERY active in that child's life we need to punish the WH even more by saying that he should just let his son go?!?! It would be completely different if this couple was only paying CS and already only saw the OC one weekend a month and 8 weeks in the summer. But, you are wanting to say there is not a problem with a father who has been as involved as the courts and xow will allow loosing his time with his son?!?! Where's the critical thinking in that? To me, this screams of the selfishness of the xow, and NOT of Lizbeth and her H. [/color]
Tigger
me~BS & WS~38~~h~BS & WS~37 my d-days~7/92, 1/96, 7/00, 9/07
h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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But, you are wanting to say there is not a problem with a father who has been as involved as the courts and xow will allow loosing his time with his son?!?! Where's the critical thinking in that? To me, this screams of the selfishness of the xow, and NOT of Lizbeth and her H. Please do not put words into my mouth Tigger. This is NOT what I've been saying. I've been saying that there ARE some circumstances in which letting a child go is the unselfish thing to do. Dickering over a child is not healthy. You can dress it up as "love" all you want, but it's still not a healthy thing to do to a child. And I don't know about your friends and your experience, but my x and I had joint custody (him 50% and me 50%) and I got a heck of a lot more in CS than a measly $63. I wouldn't have even bothered to cash a $63 check. I'm just sick that this seems OK with so many posters because the ow "deserves" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> it. Where's the love in that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />?
--BTM
*First marriage lasted 13 years.
*Divorced from serial cheater 15 years.
*WS Married OW; still together.
*I happily remarried 14 years ago.
*5 adult children
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I understand your position, I really do. But, how would you feel if someone was threatening to take away your child because you wanted to take a different job, provide financially for your child, move to a different place and be closer to your family? [color:"blue"]This is just the point. The xow wants to take the OC away from Lizbeth and her H. To quote you, where's the love in that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ? [/color] However, we don't need to put our children in the midst of a power struggle. I don't think it's healthy FOR THE CHILD. No child should be raised in an atmosphere of anger and bitterness. NO CHILD. When we know that our actions are likely to create anger and bitterness, it is up to us to rise above it and let our generosity of spirit shine through. [color:"blue"]And who's the one creating the anger and bitterness here? When someone has fought this hard to get the chance to be with his son, it's a very hard thing to give up! Would YOU be able to do it? [/color] It would be nice to live in a land where every ow "thought" BEFORE she acted, but it isn't reality. How long, exactly, do we punish them...and by extension, their children? It's nice to believe that the bond developed at the age of four will be sufficient to insure that the children will always love and appreciate us, but even that isn't a given. Look at the number of children who hate both their parents for evidence of how tenuous that particular bond can be. [color:"blue"]So, Lizbeth and her H should stop "punishing" the xow and let her have her way, and take the OC away? Don't forget, the OC is also Lizbeth's H's son. For every child who now hates both parents, there are millions more who are closer than ever BECAUSE of a strong bond from 4 or even younger! [/color] I think this might be at the heart of the original post. How else do you explain the "sweet deal"? How many of you would "consider" giving up a child for a "sweet deal?" [color:"blue"]WHERE, in all of her posts does Lizbeth refer to the decree as a "sweet deal"? I think that it's a wonderful thing that the courts have recognized a father's desire to be involved in the boy's life and has provided for that opprotunity! Why can't the xow give up the child for her "sweet deal"? What's so wrong about a father raising his child? [/color] Where's the love in that ? [color:"blue"]I see the love that Lizbeth and her H have for this little guy in the fact that they don't want to chance loosing contact with him! Why fight so hard to only let him go on the xow's whim for a better paying job and closer to family. What about if there is family from Lizbeth's H's side close to them? Why should they loose any love for the xow? I have no lost love for the xows in MY situation, nor the xoms either! Yes, people make mistakes, but you tend to sacrifice to make up for those mistakes, as I'm sure that Lizbeth's H has done. I mean, this is a vicious cycle that will never end! When there is an OC involved, it always ends in that way! I say you should count yourself lucky that there was no OC involved in your situation. It puts a whole different spin on things that you can't even fathom UNTIL you've lived it for yourself. [/color] [color:"red"]Lizbeth, I want to apologize for taking off with this tangent, but I will say that I applaud you for standing by your H's side in his decision. I also want to welcome you to the boards, and recommend that you read anything and everything you can on this board! It can be a life saver, even though you sound like you guys are well down the road of recovery! I will now "return" your thread back to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Again, welcome to the boards! [/color]
Tigger
me~BS & WS~38~~h~BS & WS~37 my d-days~7/92, 1/96, 7/00, 9/07
h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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And who's the one creating the anger and bitterness here? When someone has fought this hard to get the chance to be with his son, it's a very hard thing to give up! So is it your position that because someone fights hard for something, that they are right in doing so? That it is healthy for the child that they do so? So, Lizbeth and her H should stop "punishing" the xow and let her have her way, and take the OC away? Don't forget, the OC is also Lizbeth's H's son. In a word YES. They should stop punishing the xow because her hurt, her anger and her bitterness will flow to her child and that's NOT HEALTHY for the child. I also think it is unhealthy to look at this as letting the "ow have her way." When we continue to focus on the ow and what she's done, and what she "deserves," we have a tendency lose sight of the child. For every child who now hates both parents, there are millions more who are closer than ever BECAUSE of a strong bond from 4 or even younger! Can you point to some empirical studies and data that support your contention that children are closer than ever BECAUSE of a strong bond formed from 4 or even younger! IOW, where is the scientific proof of the causal link between the two? I'm not arguing that bonds aren't important. I'm questioning your premise that the children are close BECAUSE of a bond formed with a specific person by the age of 4. If the child/father truly have that "bond" they'll still have that bond if the child leaves. If they cease to have that bond if the child leaves, then it wasn't there ON THE CHILD'S PART. So either it's there and it's strong enough to weather a change in georgraphy or it isn't there, despite the overwhelming desire to believe that it is. Again, this is about choosing to MAKE something work, even if it isn't what you want. WHERE, in all of her posts does Lizbeth refer to the decree as a "sweet deal"? In her first post here Tigger... Now this sounds like a sweet deal but my first thought was to say no. We have integrated OC into our family and I think
the only person who would really benefit from this is OW at the expense of H being involved in OC's day to day life. Now you may read this as putting the child ahead of the "sweet deal," but when she went on to ask for opinions, I couldn't help but wonder why she needed them if she wasn't at least considering the child as a bargaining chip. But there's also her apparent realization that taking advantage of the "sweet deal" would surely benefit the ow financially more and like I said, we can't have the ow having a higher standard of living than the rebuilding couple, can we? It would surely add insult to injury, to them, if the homewrecker provided a better life for her child simply because it would benefit her, too. I see the love that Lizbeth and her H have for this little guy in the fact that they don't want to chance loosing contact with him! Why fight so hard to only let him go on the xow's whim for a better paying job and closer to family. What about if there is family from Lizbeth's H's side close to them? Why should they loose any love for the xow? I have no lost love for the xows in MY situation, nor the xoms either! ...I will say that I applaud you for standing by your H's side in his decision. When Lizbeth posted this scenario, it was her third post. Your outrage and cheerleading suggests a strong bias that you have not acknowledged to her. Perhaps it's somewhere else on the board and many may already know what is behind your comments; but you haven't chosen to enlighten Lizbeth so she can consider how your own opinion might be colored by your own experiences. Finally, in an earlier post I said, ...If you believe that NOBODY, under any circumstances, should be allowed to leave once they have children with another, then my arguments are moot. If you believe that NOBODY should ever be allowed to leave once they have children with another...then I don't see the argument. I acknowledge that some people feel that way. I just don't happen to be one of them.
--BTM
*First marriage lasted 13 years.
*Divorced from serial cheater 15 years.
*WS Married OW; still together.
*I happily remarried 14 years ago.
*5 adult children
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Lizbeth,
I was just wondering how you and your H were doing? I honestly meant what I said in my last post to you, I applaud you in your support of your H's decision. I hope that things work out for you guys, and that this little guy knows how much you guys love him! If there is anything else that we might be able to help you with, please don't hesitate to ask. That's what this board is here for!
Tigger
me~BS & WS~38~~h~BS & WS~37 my d-days~7/92, 1/96, 7/00, 9/07
h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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Hi tigger,
Thanks for the support. My H and I are doing fine. The xOW goes from being some what nice to being nasty . The company she wants to work for wants a final answer by Friday and I guess she is hoping we change our mind. That's not going to happen. I predict a very angry and bitter woman on our hands. Maybe even worse than when she got dumped by H. If she steps out of line our lawyer can deal with her like he has in the past. So no big deal. Again thanks for all your support.
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What do YOU want? What is best for YOUR family? That is your answer.
OW, job, her family, etc. should be no concern at all. If she wants this job so bad, then go. SHE has a choice here too. She can leave the child with you. If she balks, ask her what is the difference?
DO NOT BELIEVE A WORD SHE SAYS ABOUT NOT PAYING CHILD SUPPORT.
And what a moron. Why would you be required to pay her moving expenses????
Talk to your husband about what is best for YOU AND YOUR family. If he wants his child here, that is the answer.
She can still have the job. It's just that her child would stay with his father.
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I wanted to post an update. xOW has accepted the job and her start date is September 19th. She has filed an emergency petition with the court to relocate with OC. Our lawyer says there is a very slim chance that she will be allowed to take OC. xOW wants OC to live with her until a final decision is rendered. The whole thing is so complicated. Believe it or not we are not freaking out over this. The lawyer says that if OW is not given permission to move with OC and she leaves we will be given full physical custody and a visitation order will be made. He also went on to tell us that OW could be forced to pay 100% of the transportation costs if she moves regardless because she is the one moving.
I think OW knows she will not be given permission to move because she is pleading with us to change our mind. She is practically bribing us. H and I have been doing a lot of thinking and we cannot imagine not seeing OC every week. He definetely belongs here with us. If xOW chooses to move that is her loss. We go to court on September 8th. We have always had the same judge, he knows her history, ****** he fined the ****** out of her. So we are not too worried.
Keep us in your thoughts and prayers.
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Wow that is great. I really would like to see how the judge rules on this one.
Hope everything goes your way.
ALL OW DON'T RESPOND OR COMMENT ON ANYTHING I POST EVER. I'M NOT HERE TO SPEAK TO U!
I am here to speak to other BSs that Can relate to my situation and OUR shared experiences.
I COULD CARE LESS WHAT ANY OW HAS TO SAY ABOUT ANYTHING, EVER!
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Very interesting! Let us know how it goes.
J.
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Tigger~
So far NOBODY has answered my main question which was:
How would you feel if your h cheated on you, divorced you, remarried, had other children, and refused to grant you the right to start over with your life (holding you geographically hostage, IOW)?
[color:"blue"]What does divorce have to do with Lizbeth's situation? She and her H are still married and working the MB principles to repair the damage done to their M from her H's A and resulting OC. In my eyes, they are excersizing their rights to this little boy, which it seems they fought for that right! (disclaimer: not pointing fingers, just making a point with this next statement) Many couples here are not able to include the OC in their lives/marriage for their own reasons. Here is a couple who loves this little boy and wants to be a part of his life, and the xow is yet again trying to take something away from them! So why are we painting their decision in a bad light????
Now, for actually answering your main question, no I wouldn't like it if my H were to D me and then "hold us hostage" by not allowing me to move for whatever reason. But, that isn't what the situation is here. Heck, this xow KNEW what the custody papers said, and seems like she fought over visitation which probably caused her to be in the situation she now finds herself. The supposed vindictiveness you seem to see in Lizbeth's post is well warranted. Why? Because this xow has already forced her way into their lives, and now that Lizbeth's H is taking an active role in his little boy's life, she has now found another job in another state 1000 miles away, and wants to cut the visitation to once or twice a month and 8 weeks in the summer! How is this benefiting the little guy? And, who's to say that if they did let them go that the xow wouldn't brainwash the little guy against them so he would fight about going to visit? [/color]
My divorce decree said many things, which my x and I jointly decided to ignore. A decree is pretty much a "one-size" fits all agreement that does not "fit all." If the decree is the primary thing one has to fall back on in order to determine the "right-ness" of their decision, they probably aren't "right."
[color:"blue"]Who says that the decree is what they are falling back on here either? This is a father who WANTS to be involved in his son's life. Is it "right" to take the boy away from a 50/50 shared custody so the xow can have more money or be closer to her family? Again, she knew BEFORE she applied for this job what the decree said, and that Lizbeth's H was an active loving role in this little boys life. She had a plan, probably because she DOESN'T want Lizbeth and her H to have such an active part and she wishes to control the situation for her own benefit. Where's the "right-ness" in that? [/color]
In reading the original post, I saw some vindictiveness (glee, and satisfaction that the ow was upset). I understand the hurt. I've been there, multiple times. I understand the anger. I've been there. But it's not healthy for the child to have a bitter parent, even if she was/is the ow and even if she (in everyone else's opinion) deserves it.
[color:"blue"]Again, who's to say that she won't be bitter about Lizbeth and her H even if they do let her move? Lizbeth and her H fought for her H's rights to his son, and seems they fought the good fight and won, since they are sharing custody. Why can't the father be the one to win? Yes, this is a win/loose type thing and Lizbeth and her H are playing by the rules. It's the xow who is ignoring them. [/color]
It's comforting to feel superior to the ow. I get that too. But at what price? When one parent "wins," a child loses. When both biological parents cooperate, a child wins. The other people involved should be supportive, but stay out of the decision making process, JMHO. [color:"blue"]It seems to me that only ONE of the biological parents is causing this problem here. How would YOU feel if you were in Lizbeth's H's shoes, and the xow was wanting to take this little guy out of your life? I don't think I can say it enough, but they FOUGHT to be able to help parent this little boy, and 4 yo or not, he WILL remember being taken from that house! As for saying that Lizbeth doesn't have a say, well she does if it affects her M, and it sounded to me like she WAS/IS supporting her H in his decision. Maybe the question should be, "Did the xow consult with Lizbeth's H BEFORE she went looking for another job, regardless of pay, that was 1000 miles away from this little boy's father?" This situation with the OC is VERY different from a divorce. In your situation, there were no OC's. Your x married one of his ow, yes, but that was AFTER you were divorced, and the children from that marriage came after they were married. I'm not, by any means, trying to lessen what you've been through, but it is a totally different set of rules that most of the time are ignored mainly by the xow when the original couple are STILL married and the xow sees it as she's lost so what would it hurt to force issues such as custody, visitation, CS you name it, they pull every trick in the book that they can. If anything, the xow should respect Lizbeth and her H as a UNITED front and that they share in EVERYTHING! She should have thought of that BEFORE the A/OC. And, that's just MHO [/color] I don't totally agree with you here. As far as the law goes there is NO difference between oc and com. NO DIFFERENCE. Rights are the same, and decissions between the parents are the same. In fact in my order it states (and xmm attorney drew it up) that only xmm and I are to discuse anything at all regarding oc. No other person can intervien. i e spouce, bf's etc. Now what they choose to do between them is just that there business. It's non of mine. Anything anyone does on behalf of the parents is responsbile, the parents are responsible for those people's actions. Plain and simple. As far as your statement that ow chooses this when she had the a/oc, it could also be said that the bw chooses this when she chooses to stay with her husband that also had the a/oc. JMHO. It really just works both ways and everyone has to learn to respect the boundries they've been dealt. Now I agree that the father should be with his son. NO if's and's or butt's about it. And Lizabeth said several sentences that made me feel this way. First of all, she said her income would not change any. That she already makes good money. Second her h only pays a small amount of cs per month. In ow's eyes to loose that cs would not break her. So the cs does not matter. I personaly don't think it's in the best interest of the child uproot him/her if the benifits are not there i e a better lifestyle do to higher income from ow. If though she has a no where job and was offered a job that she would make a termouds amount of money to make there life's better and seeing that she is getting next to nothing (liz I'm not putting your h down just trying to prove a point on income)in cs than I'd feel that your h should let her go. Kids are not as rezliant as some seem to think they are. Yes they do bounce back, but sometimes they hold it in. kwim? Sometimes they just don't bounce right back either. I think if at all possible it's important for a child to have the love and time with both parents and extended familes. Our kids grow up so fast and before you know it you've lost time, special events and milestones and they are grownup and gone. And we all know the older a child gets the more they want there independance to hang out with there friends and that is an automactic of lost time. AT 4 years old it's very important to have his parents around. These are impressionable years. I don't see where ow will benifit from this move. Or should I say that oc would. The income better life is not different than what she has now. Like I said before, all adults need to respest the other's decissions when it's best for oc. But this just not seems to be the case here. Also someone mentioned about jurdistion being moved if she moves. That is normally not true. In my paperwork it states that if either one of us that jurdiction stays where it's at.
Last edited by needtomoveon; 09/02/05 09:45 AM.
Aka Marysway
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~~~~~~Geez I must have missed something here. Why on earth would And what a moron. Why would you be required to pay her moving expenses????~~~~~~~~ Geez I must have missed something here. Why on earth would ow want xmm to pay her moving expenses? That seems odd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by needtomoveon; 09/02/05 10:15 AM.
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Let me clarify a couple of issues.
(1) xOW has not asked us to pay her moving expenses. She said if we let her take OC she will pay 100% of the transportation costs for OC to come and visit us.
(2) Her income will increase dramatically. Still that is not good enough of a reason for her to take OC out of state. She makes a very good living right now. She is far from poor.
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Good luck with the court. Keeps us posted
Dawn
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Liz, I'm sorry I thought you said her income would be the same. As far as my last statement, I thought I did not see that, that is why I quoted that.
Anyway.......okay. This may change things for your h. Just going by things I've seen.
One person's income to them maynot be what is consider very well, compared to another.
Just don't be surprise if the Judge allows this. She has been very generious with what she has offered you in exchange. The Judge will take that probaly (depending on your judge). Her past mistakes that she has had to pay for will not be a factor as this is something totally different.
I still feel a child should be with both parents. I'm just now looking at it from a logical stand point and from past experiences I've witnessed. I'm sure she will tell the Judge that she has offered to pay for all transporation and that will be a factor in the Judge's decission. That is probaly why she offered it. She knows that will account for something. You said she's talked to a few attorny's right?
All I'm saying is don't be surprised and hopefully it does work out best for the oc overall.
Aka Marysway
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Well good news. OC is staying with us. The judge ruled against OW. If she leaves husband will get physical custody. The judge cited OW's long history of denying visitation and also the custody agreement where it specifically says that if one parent moves the other one will have custody. Now it's not over yet. OW was only requesting permission to take OC out of state until a final decision has been made. Our lawyer says it might as well be over. He does not see the judge allowing it especially since we have 50% custody. He said if we had less than that chances are she could have taken OC. Husband has to go to mediation to work out a visitation schedule with OW. She could change her mind about moving since she lost. We'll see. We are going out to celebrate tonight.
Something else interesting happened. Our lawyer wanted to see the offer letter from the company that has hired OW. She has a long history of lying and he wanted to make sure she was being honest about everything. She has refused to produce it. You would thing that she would love to throw it in our face. We are going to pursue this if she does not drop the custody suit. If she is lying then she purjured herself in court today. There is something off. We'll have to wait and see. That is the update.
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CONGRATULATIONS! i am really happy for you.
carolyn
BW -33 (Me)
WH-38
M- 4 years/together 10
OC (girl) born 03/03
D-Day 08/02
True friends stab you in the front - Oscar Wilde
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,884 |
Lizbeth,
I'm happy to hear that the OC will be staying in the area, if not with you guys. That does sound suspecious about not wanting to provide the letter about the employment offer. I just get sick of hearing some xow gripe about the fathers not wanting to be involved, complaining about having to do everything themselves, and then you have a couple like you and your H who WANT to have the OC involved with their family and such and then the xow realizes that she's not getting what she wants and tries to take the OC away!
I know you said it isn't over, but keep up the united front and your support with your H an no matter what the outcome, you have already won, because you and your H are on the same page and have been/are working through this whole mess!
Congrats!
Tigger
me~BS & WS~38~~h~BS & WS~37 my d-days~7/92, 1/96, 7/00, 9/07
h's d-days~7/11/00 & 2 weeks later 3 COM, 1 OC(mine)
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 908
Member
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Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 908 |
Lizbeth, that is strange that she is not producing the letter. Like you said if anything to throw in your face. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....makes me think.
Dont be surprised if she applied for a job and got an acceptance letter. kwim? Also if she does not provide it in a certain amount of time then file a motion to compel. She'll have no choice, then if she does not do it, she'll be in contempt.
I know all about these lies, but with xmm. Catch him every single time. If she is lying, then I take back everything I say.
I'm surprised the judge allowed the past things in as normally it's the specific issue at hand.
Good luck and as I said before, I hope that everything works out for the best of oc.
Aka Marysway
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