Okay, strange title of a post, but I have a strange question...

I've been seeing this awesome out-of-town guy that I've mentioned previously, for just over 3 weeks. We've been communicating (email and phone) for a little over a month. I think the world of him. He makes me happy beyond what I could ever imagine. So, we were leaving McDonalds after being at the amusement park yesterday and having just a great day with his kids (and a great day when we snuck a few pecks when they weren't looking). And we were saying "good bye" and something just about came tumbling out of my mouth without thought.

Yes, that little three word sentence that starts with "I" and ends with "you" and has the "L" word in the middle.

But I sucked it back in because it just seems that this is too soon to say that, and I don't want to scare him away. And after all, I'm not even sure I know what love is sometimes. I think I do, but how does a person really know?

To define how I feel: I think about him all the time. I'd spend 24 hours a day with him and I don't think I'd get tired of him. Time flies so darned quickly when we're together. I don't have to do anything special with him, I simply just enjoy spending time with him, even if it's just driving around in a car talking to each other.

He definitely is filling what I have determined are my top four needs in someone: #1-shared beliefs, #2-honesty, #3-affection, and #4-communication. He's awesome on all fronts.

And he has been a complete gentleman with me, considering we've been out 7 times (which equates to something like 40-50 shared hours together now). And that doesn't count the novels we've written daily to each other, or the hours and hours we've spent on the phone when we can't see each other (because right now we only get to see each other twice a week and that may drop to once a week when school starts).

It's not that he's not showing interest--that is quite clear! But he's not all agressive and pushing for things that I'm not ready for like many men do. And we've had the "sex" discussion and although I know he would like to go there at some point just as much as I would, we have also discussed how it is not what God wants us to do as believers. Right now, because we've agreed that the man should be the spiritual leader in a relationship, he has very reluctantly agreed to wear what he jokingly refers to as 'the anchor' around his neck (that being the responsibility for being the stronger one to keep us out of trouble). I told him I will carry it for short periods of time if he gets tired.

We've taken a pretty serious topic and have lightened it up a bit, which is sort of how we've dealt with a lot of things, which is just one of the many things I love about him.

I could go on and on. I could write a book. I'd say he has my love bank pretty much overflowing. I keep waiting to see the red flags that I've seen with the other guys right away, but so far I've not seen a one.

The main thing (which really isn't the topic of this point but I'll throw it in) is that I've been accused (nicely) by a coworker of trying to subconsciously sabotage the relationship by constantly coming up with reasons that it won't work (i.e., my past, my daughter, and now money).

Today has been a really rough day on a lot of counts (actually the entire past week or so has). Not getting into that here, but the big issue of the day is that the ex is 2 months behind in child support which is seriously cramping things for me, I have a potentially sizeable A/C repair needing done on my house, and today I found out that the ex needs fairly immediate back surgery and he has no long-term or short-term disability. First, I feel bad for him because this will cripple him financially, but second, no work on his part means no child support for my daughter and I (for potentially several months as he is an auto mechanic who does a lot of lifting, and apparently he has 2 ruptured discs).

So my latest email to Mr. Awesome Guy was that I was being a bit of a worrier but that I was afraid good things were going to come to an end because if child support goes away, I won't be able to afford to drive and see him and I don't want him coming to resent me if he has to be the one carry ing 100% of the load.

(See, this is just me believing that good things don't last).

So, maybe the "L" thing won't even be an issue because I'll screw it up with worry. But if I don't, the question...

How do I know if I really love him?? Because it sure as heck feels like I do!

LL



So, does this answer my question, though? Or is this just crazyness?

If he disappears because you can not afford to drive to him....well, good riddance! There's your flag. If he finds a way to see you through the tough times, sounds like love. Be patient, it will all work its way out.

I have little doubt that he would try to drive my 100% of the time if he needed to. He's only asked me to come his way once, and that was just because he wanted to show me around the city he lives near, and I offered. Other than that, all trips his direction have been my idea.

And he has paid for the vast majority of our dinners, snacks, activities, etc., despite my offering otherwise.

It's just that I know he's not exactly made of money and he supports his 3 kids (2 at home and 1/3 of the college bill for the other one) and lives in a very small, very unassuming 1 bedroom apartment to do it. He is genuinely a very good guy, but I don't want him to even subconsciously start to resent me. I don't feel like it's his job to support me. I've always been a very self-sufficient woman--never had to ask for help or charities from anyone--and this could put me in a difficult position.

LL,

I have been reading your continuing story with Mr. Awesome, and every time you post about him, I cringe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. Please, don't take it wrong, I am very happy for you, but I get the feeling that I am watching a trainwreck about to unfold. You are really on a very very fast track (considering where you were emotionally just a few weeks ago), and I am very worried that you will get hurt. You can't really "love" someone at three weeks, because you don't know him. You may feel in love, because your love bank is full, but those are two very different things.

Let me also say that I have been where you are, totally infatuated head-over-heels crazy over someone. The chats we had for hours on end, about all the deep stuff, relationships, kids, beliefs, values, etc, took my breath away. She was beautiful, fun, funny, sweet, really into MB concepts, etc etc. Anything we discussed, we saw eye to eye.

I couldn't stop thinking about her, we talked and e-mailed almost nonstop. Like you said, the love banks overflowed, and before you know it, the "L" word popped out within a month.

We dated for a few more months before the infatuation wore off and the more realistic person surfaced. Believe it or not, all the things I saw as being perfect in her no longer were all that perfect. We were way too different, and eventually I broke up with her.

Why did I fall so much for someone who was so wrong for me? I was not emotionally ready for her - I was only a month out of a prior relationship. Now, does this remind you of a certain someone, perhaps you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

It is so easy to fall for someone when you are needy. And no doubt you keep telling yourself that you are not infatuated, that in fact you are very carefully looking for any red flags, and will know them when you see them. But he is just so perfect for you, you can't believe your luck. Right? Unfortunately, when you are infatuated, you cannot see any red flags even if they were there, because your love bank overflows.

It doesn't mean you shouldn't date him, I say go and have fun. All I am saying is to go slow and give it time - I guarantee you that if he is human, red flags will get here before too long. Trust me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I once heard a wonderful quote from a relationship expert - she said "Infatuation is great - it is a wonderful feeling - go out and enjoy the heck out of it. But realize, infatuation is but a stage, and will always wear off. So, whatever you do in that stage, do not make any serious or permanent decisions or commitments".

So, I would say stop worrying about red flags (they WILL come), stop thinking about the wedding dress (don't tell me you are not), and enjoy his company. And see how things are two, three, six months from now. And, I would also suggest slowing down a bit on writing e-mail novels daily - those are not sustainable, and sooner or later they will slow down a bit.

BTW, long distance relationships are inherently somewhat unrealistic, because they are mini-vacations of sorts. It's easy to get all pumped up for a weekend with "Mr. Wonderful", and forget all your troubles for a weekend. But it's not the same as seeing someone in a more regular daily setting. When you are in the same town, day to day, you will see many things you can't see long distance. Just something to think about.

Go slow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I think it all sounds like you are having your rebound relationship. My humble opinion is that you are not yet ready for a serious relationship. Just enjoy the daylights out of it and see it for what it probably is - a chance to do some healing and growing.

Ok... yeah... I'm going to be such a wet blanket...


This looks like a red flag to me. I'm still new enough, I don't know if POJA pertains only to BUYER relationships, but this doesn't look like POJA to me.

and...

You have lesser responsibility for your own actions?!? If you get carried away, it's his fault? I don't think that is what God had in mind when he spoke of the husband as the spiritual head of the household. It looks like you are setting him up for a pretty good fall from his pedestal. Not healthy... not healthy at all.


I've always thought of love as an action verb, rather than a passive one. Love is something that is done, not a feeling to be felt. Yeah, I know, this fly's in the face of Hollywood.

How did Paul describe love to the Corinthians? Did he describe it as a feeling?

Emotional love is the state of mind that makes doing what Paul describes easy. In the case of Eros, it is when your partner is meeting your ENs. This is very easy early in the relationship. But, over time, your ENs may not be met because the person is not who you thought they were, or they just stop meeting them. Of course, if couples work at making sure they meet each others ENs, then perpetual emotional love is possible.

Is what your feeling Love? Yeah, I think so. But it is based on an incomplete picture of who you are with. You've subconsciously "filled in the blanks" because you just have not had the time to really get to know him. Over time, the blanks will be filled in, and then you will find out if you filled in the blanks correctly, or if you made incorrect assumptions. Then you will know if you will continue to "love" him. Only time will tell.

I agree with both AGG and Cinderella.

Nobody is perfect - no matter how perfect he seems, you don't know him like you need to in order to determine if you really love him.

And, it does sound like you are still in the rebound stage to some degree. This guy is treating you like you are special, and it sounds to me like you haven't been treated that way for a very long time.

My ex treated me like a princess until the first time he cheated on me.

Be careful. Think of your emotional condition as if it's the fog we speak of over on the Infidelity forums ... because it kind of is the same thing. When you can see through the fog and the same guy is still there, then maybe you've got something. But it's not there yet. IMO.

CS

AGG, you said:


I know I haven't known him very long, and that's why I feel weird about letting the "L" word come forth, so it hasn't yet, even though it very naturally wants to. I am more than a month out of a relationship, though. That huge mess I had myself in was about a month ago--a relationship, per se, it wasn't. He was a fun guy I was hanging out because, well, he was fun. But I knew from the start that we had no future and that I didn't have the "L" feeling for him. That's what made the end result all that much more tragic. But we won't go there. That's in the past.

My ex has been gone for 1.6 years and it was April 2004 when I had the epiphany of sorts and realized I was pretty much done pining for him and in August of that same year I filed. So it's been a while since I've been in anything that included 2 people.

You're right though--we've not been together long enough to see the little annoying flaws yet.

However, the things in common seem to continue to grow the more we get to know each other. I actually started out thinking we had little in common, since he has a graduate degree and is in education and I have an AA degree but things worked well and I'm a manager in the corporate world. And he's athletic and I'm not.

But from there, the more we are around each other, the more we find we have in common, right down to some quirky little things, to common financial goals, common biblical beliefs (he's coming to my church this Sunday--he offered, I'm excited--I get to go to his next), common desires about someday not having to spend our winters in the frigid north we call Iowa because we're both cold-blooded (his hands are colder than mine even--something very rare in guys--most are so darned hot all the time), to simple things like enjoying weekend drives, him not being the world's best housekeeper and not being freaked out that I'm not either.

However, we're still learning what we like to do with our free time, because we don't get to see each other on a daily basis. And yes, there is also a risk in how we're going to do some of our weekends, starting with this one. Because of the distance and the price of gas and the time we tend to get home, he is coming to my place this Friday and isn't leaving until Sunday. He will be sleeping in my extra bedroom--it's already been agreed by him and with my daughter. I may go over there from time to time, but my guess is that on his off-kid weekends, he'll come this way instead. I have the bigger place and I live in the city, so there's just more to do.

We covered the distance issue tonight--I just shared that I wasn't going to try and guess the future right now and was very much enjoying what we have, but knew that we couldn't keep up the long distance thing forever. His last relationship (the one that would have ended in marriage had some things not happened that I will keep silent on here for his privacy) was also a distance relationship, though they'd agreed at one point on a common in-between town for them both to move to should they marry (which thankfully for me, they didn't.)

Anyway, he shared what I had all along silently hoped might be the case--he sees himself as more mobile than I am because of my career situation, meaning he would be willing to move my way should the what-if's ever become reality. That was a big concern that was set to rest.

I know we're in that butterflies-in-the-stomach infatuation stage right now. And I know that calms down in any relationship, even in the ones that last.

Finally, the email novels--I don't see them slowing. They're not these ooey-gooey poetic things (okay, maybe one from him was, in a cutesy sort of way), but generally just very open communication about ideas, issues, concerns, likes, dislikes, kids, parents, friends and relatives, etc. It's just a way for us to talk to each other when we can't always be burning through cell minutes, or when we want to really think something through and put it down in words. He is very much a talker as am I. He can talk or write me into the ground--a very hard thing to do.

Cinderella,

I guess my question for you is, why do you say that? Why must I have a rebound relationship? Needing to have a rebound relationship sort of in my mind sits in that same section for unnecessary beliefs as does the notion that a person must date many, many guys and compare them to figure out what type of person they are looking for.

I actually know several business associates and a couple church members who have gone so far as to marry the partner from the first serious relationship they've had since a divorce or spouse's death, and theirs seem to be working.

TBG, you said:


Don't read too much into my statement about the anchor. I fully intend to take on half the responsibility. But we've had conversations about the man being the spiritual leader (which I wholeheartedly agree with, btw) and so I sort of jokingly tossed the responsibility his way. It isn't going to be easy, because there is definite chemistry, but we try and keep things a little lighthearted.


I agree. Hollywood romantic love isn't the love I'm talking about. I know from a romantic perspective, I feel that in-love feeling. But I truly have this deep desire to find out what makes him happy, to look up to him and to stick up for him, to affirm who he is. Just in knowing things I know about him, in meeting his brother and sis-in-law, in meeting his kids and watching him interact with them on a couple occasions, one being all day yesterday, I'm very impressed by who I see and I desire to be around him as much as I can and I want to do what I can to make him happy and make him proud to be with me. I feel a great deal of respect for him just based on my experience thus far.

Of course, if couples work at making sure they meet each others ENs, then perpetual emotional love is possible.

I being a skeptic am not sure I believe in perpetual emotional love, though I do believe it can certainly come and go and come back again. But my question is more one of "is it possible to feel a type of love for someone after this length of time and at what point is it okay to share that with the person?"

CS, you said:


That is very true. I can't say based on my memories or on all the letters I threw away recently that my ex and I wrote to each other while dating that he ever treated me special. Even back before I was married, it was very apparent. But I married him anyway.

So, on one hand, you're right--it's going to be very easy for me to fall for the first person who shows a little kindness.

But on the other hand, because I am so conditioned to being in a relationship with little affection, it makes it very easy for a guy to fill my EN's which doesn't seem like all that bad a deal to me.

Anyway, I'll keep everyone updated and if you have concerns or see red flags that I'm missing, please continue to share them. I read all this and think on it.

LL

Ok, fine!

Whatever.

But you started it. You asked. We're just telling you what we think.

No, seriously...I did start it and I did expect others to tell me what they think. I'm just expressing what's going thru my mind. And I haven't mentioned the "L" word at all to him. And I do read everyone's response very carefully and think on them and apply them to my situation.

But my question to you was actually a serious one, because I know a rebound relationship is almost expected from a divorced person. And my question is, "why is it necessary?"

LL

LL,
Here's my thoughts.

It might be love, and it might not. But I wouldn't rush into saying the words yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> With my ex-BF, he rushed into saying them, and it did freak me out, and I wasn't ready to say it for quite a while. If you feel yourself tempted to say it, say something else like "I really like you", or "I'm really enjoying this", or "this is really fun", or something else along those lines. Those might BETTER describe how you are truly feeling, eh? I mean... along the lines of you are here asking "what is love?" And I really do know how you feel about that question!!!! I've asked it many times since my divorce, and being out in the dating world.

Bottom line, as some others have said, ENJOY THIS, whatever it is, and don't make any hasty decisions. This fun, passionate, infatuation stage may not last, and it truly takes SEVERAL months to really get to know someone. At some point, it may feel comfortable to tell each other you love each other, and THAT's OK... it doesn't mean you have to get married. RIGHT??? But still... take your time... from watching other couples, and from my experience with my ex-BF, it takes MORE than 6 months (I say 2 years) to really know someone.

Enjoy the journey.
Faith1

Love? Absolutely not. Infatuation? Far more likely. You've been seeing tis man for three weeks and the L-word comes tumbling out of your mouth? After just "40-50 shared hours" together? no, no, no, no, no.

A rebound is not only niether expected nor necessary, it is to be avoided at all costs.

I, too, see many red flags in your post, and I agree that this is a train wreck waiting to happen. One of my biggest red flags? That the two of you have been seeing one another for so short a period of time and already he is including you in activities with his children. One should not, must not, subject his children to the people he is dating until a serious, committed relationship has developed. Then it must be handled very delicately. As a child of divorce, whose mother made this mistake, I can tell you that is is very disturbing, confusing, even damaging to a child.

Based, on what you've written, there are just too many problems here to deal with in a single post. Nothing seems right about this relationship and, were I you, I'd be running away from it as fast as I could.

Just because a relationship doesn't end up in "happily ever after" doesn't mean it will be a train-wreck.... LL is here to learn how to prevent a train-wreck. Dumping the guy and walking away is not the only answer.

Train-wrecks and happily-ever-after are extremes and are movies on the lifetime channel. There's plenty of meddle-ground. What's wrong with dating, learning and growing, (without the experience we can't learn for ourselves - about ourselves), as long as we are grounded, cautious, and try to relax and enjoy......

“””So, on one hand, you're right--it's going to be very easy for me to fall for the first person who shows a little kindness.

But on the other hand, because I am so conditioned to being in a relationship with little affection, it makes it very easy for a guy to fill my EN's which doesn't seem like all that bad a deal to me.”””

It’s a thought of mine that your ability to see the health of a relationship is directly proportionate to where you are in your own personal mental health. LL, quite honestly from the end times of your marriage through the trials that led to this guy, I’m quite sure that things have been extremely tough. From reading your posts and hearing of some of the obsessions, I would also venture to guess that your self-esteem has taken a ride. So introducing ‘AWESOME’ guy is like feeding a cracker to a starving person. Because the person is so starving and weary they view the cracker as a gourmet meal. But after they’ve had their fill of crackers, become healthy and aware, at some point they usually are able to see that it was just a cracker. LL, I hope this is a great thing for you, but SERIOUSLY caution you to go slow and continue to work on yourself outside this relationship.

I have a very close friend that sounds like she went through a relationship just like this basically hopping from one to another. Ironically, your relationship stories parallel each other to the point of being scary. If I remember correctly, when we talked about this new guy her words were “This is the best relationship I have ever been in”, which at the time may have been true but in reality she had never been in a healthy relationship while she herself was healthy. So as the red flags flew left and right in this relationship, she rationalized, justified, and really just ignored them. Luckily, she took that advise and continued to work on her own mental health. And in a relatively short amount of time was able to see how this Best Relationship, was no where near what a healthy relationship, even if at one time she thought so. I’m happy to say that she is now in a truly healthy and happy relationship.

I, personally, think one of the requirements for dating after a dovorce should be the ability to happily live within ones own skin. I, personally, couldn't do that for almost 3 years after my divorce. My friend couldn't do that before her 'awesome' guy and quite honestly I don't think you've reached that point. But now is the point where things get a little cloudy because you can either view the relationships before you are healthy as neccessary to force your emotional recovery, you know the whole unlucky in love theory or you can get healthy on you own before dating. I believe the latter is better and leads to less heart aches but most people choose the 1st one....

Read "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders"

If you lose child support, you could end up in a real mess, dependent on someone who can treat you any way he pleases. I don't want to scare you but one hallmark of an abusive man is that he comes on with intensity -- it is incredibly enjoyable, but it doesn't last.

<clap> <clap> <clap> ditto Lost Husband

I don't think that anyone is advising her to dump the man, faith. But she needs to slow way, way down. I've never seen a relationship progress this quickly and it not blow up big time.

Oh, and this:

"Right now, because we've agreed that the man should be the spiritual leader in a relationship, he has very reluctantly agreed to wear what he jokingly refers to as 'the anchor' around his neck (that being the responsibility for being the stronger one to keep us out of trouble)."

Scares me to death! There are no leaders and followers in a healthy relationship. There are fully invested and responsible partners. Women who fall for this kind of thinking find themselves in abusive relationships with controllers more often than not.

I am advising her to dump the man and for the reason of the quote above. Recipe for abuse, and I should know.

The man who feels he is sacrificing will come to think that the woman needs to sacrifice as well. In Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders, Dr. Harley is very convincing about how the willingness to sacrifice leads to abuse. Also, if you find yourself in a relationship you cannot afford to leave, watch out! He may come to resent your financial dependence.

Cherished
formally known as broken heart and arm

Hi LL,

Well, I am very glad that you found a nice guy. However, I really think you need to proceed with extreme caution. I had a friend who divorced her unfaithful husband in July of 2003. Since I am a lawyer, she asked me to review the divorce decree before the final hearing.

During the conversation, she told me that she no longer trusted any man, and it would be a long time before she considered another relationship. I told her that her emotional needs had gone unmet for a very long time, and when a man came along that treated her with any consideration, she would find herself drawn to him so strongly that she would not believe it. Of course, she told me I was completely wrong and had no idea what I was talking about; she was different, and was immune to the charms of men (said in a disgusted tone).

Within two weeks after her divorce, she had her first date. She was engaged in November and married in January. Perhaps she is happy, I don't know.

My point is the same as that of LostHusband. When you have been emotionally starved for so long, a small bit of attention feels like a feast. I know this first hand. When I lost my job a week before Christmas in 2003, my wife screamed at me that I was completely worthless and had ruined her life. When I did find another job that paid less, but was less demanding and offered a greater quality of life, she told me that I was a much better husband and father, but she would really prefer more money. I had a friend who was very supportive and told me that no matter what, I was a good person, and things would work out. This friend was female, and I found myself drawn more and more to her. Luckily, I recognized the feeling, told a few close friends who help me stay accountable, and I only have sporadic contact with her.

So the point I am making is this: To a starving person, a crust of bread is a feast. Just be careful.

While I completely agree with all the advice to be very cautious, I'm not seeing any red flags. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but I don't see them showing up in what has been posted here.

One thing in particular I don't understand is why some people are alarmed by this man's "reluctant" acceptance of responsibility for maintaining a moral guard over the relationship. That is indeed a burden, but speaking for myself, it is one that I as a man would not think of refusing. Yes, it is a responsibility that both of us should accept, and each of us should be strong enough to carry the full load if necessary, but it would still be my full intent and expectation to never conduct myself in a manner which would cause a woman to be tested.

Another issue that I want to address is the matter of building resentment over making "all" of the sacrifices in a relationship - or more realistically, a majority of the sacrifices. This is, on the one hand, a danger that cuts both ways, and on the other hand, a danger which is over-generalized. By "cutting both ways" I mean that sometimes it is the one is investing less in the relationship who builds resentment. (See Harley's article on Control, Dependence, and Identity.) By "over-generalized" I mean that not everyone assesses the value of a relationship according to the ratio of what each person invests. Some of us find the cost-benefit ratio to be more meaningful. In other words, if what I am putting into a relationship is less than what I am getting out of it, it doesn't matter whether the other person is putting in commensurate effort. In fact, I believe that in an ideal match-up, we will both judge that we are getting more out of our relationship than is warranted by the effort we put in.

Finally, I wish to propose that being caught up in the infatuation stage of a relationship does not exclude truly loving the object of one's infatuation. It just means you cannot trust your objectivity. In my opinion, one should not make any irreversible decisions or do anything one might regret until the addiction phase of the infatuation has passed. However, if objective analysis supports the idea that "we seem to be right for each other," I think it is needlessly pessimistic to assume that a relationship must qualify as a doomed "rebound relationship" simply because of the suspicious timing.