Froz,

This thread is helping so many including me.

I just wish I had Bramble when I was at the stage you are now. You just might not be ready to hear what she's saying.

Where are you guys on coaching with SH? This marriage recovery business is tricky...I think I've said this before, but it's a composite of marriage and personal recovery.

Steve's first rule to me was "DO NO HARM"; meaning no LBs. So if nothing else, can you focus on no LBs? It's the bare minimum. And Patriot, can you take the initiative to call SH?

It will go a long way to helping Froz if she's where I think she is.

We'll wait patiently.

Well, don't give up on me yet.



Extending that this statement is true, how? If it's true, then I honestly don't know how. If I am hurting myself, it can't be just me. He is also hurting me. I am pretty sure I'm not imagining it.



Then why was I so happy before the A?




Mine. I thought you said I had a right to have my needs met in my language. I meant that he only does the things I mention (long before I ever mention them in an LB fashion, or however he perceives it). The truth is...I don't really care much for being manipulative. I ask nicely over and over again. He then LB's, taking away my safety, and only then do I get frustrated and bring it up in what he perceives as an angry fashion.

I'm telling you...this guy only sees two emotions..."regular and angry". He has told me this before. I have more than two. I have about 999,999,999. What he saw as anger last night was fear and pain. Why am I the one who must change everything about who I am? I'm not the one who was running around mindlessly causing everyone in my life destruction for my own selfish purposes.

I make a mistake, and suddenly it seems catastrophic. He makes a mistake and it's perceived as him needing room to grow. Why is it that he can't make it safe for me to change? I do feel the need to protect myself. He hurt me deeply, and continues to hurt me, regardless of what I tell him I need to feel safe. The things I have told him are not unreasonable expectations. They are not so completely narrow that there is no way he can possibly meet them.




It seems pretty true to me. Even in his above post (quoted below), his primary concern is getting his needs met.



and...


Yesterday he said that. Tonight he started school.



I don't want to be in charge. I'm just tired of continuously giving while he continuously takes. I'm also tired of being hurt. I'm tired of being least important.



It's frustration.



Sorry to disappoint you. I really am. I shut down because I am scared. Are you really telling me I should dive right in and give him whatever it is that he wants, regardless of whether or not I feel safe to proceed? I'm not making a choice. I'm just sitting here waiting to see what happens next.

Last night was horrible. Things spiraled way out of control. I tried to tell him numerous times that I didn't want to talk anymore. He continued to talk anyway. We were in the car. When we arrived home, I tried to get out of the car and he grabbed me. He has this not-so-safe way of manhandling me when he is angry (since D-Day). When he got out of the car, I locked all the doors so he couldn't get back in. It was very scary and quite a flashback from my past. I don't feel safe to have any emotion right now, so I am keeping them all in check.

Froz, I have sat back and watched this thread (and learned a lot thanks BR). I think you need to print out this thread and process this conversation with BR carefully. You and Pat give the R talks a break for few days while you process what you are learning. In the meantime, have you checked out the book Safe Haven Marriage ? If not, see if you can get a copy. It may make you flinch at times, I know it did me but every time I go back to it I learn something new about myself. Reading here does that for me as well. I just learned something big for me today thanks to Susan's perspective on my interactions with my H. See I thought it was HIM but it was ME!

No one is saying your hurt is not real BTW. {{Froz}}

Froz, when I read this quote in a book I am studying tonight I thought of you. It is from a book called Brave Hearts by Sharon Hersh

FF,

Thank you for sharing that with me.

I am certainly not saying that Patriot isn't hurting you or that you are imagining it. As FF said, your hurt is very real. The problem, as I see it, is that you are waiting for Patriot to change so that you can be happy. And when he doesn't change to your liking, you are hurt. You set yourself up for this misery.

Froz, let me remind you, I'm married to an active alcoholic. For the most part, I'm pretty happy. My husband did not change to make me happy. I changed me, my attitudes, my behaviors, because those were the things that I could control. As long as I stayed stuck, victimized, attempting to get my husband to change to make me happy, I was miserable.


Really? So Patriot was meeting all of your needs and was the husband you needed before the affair? He understood your emotions, met your needs, never lovebusted....everything was great? So why arent you telling him to be that pre-A husband?

I think that your happiness before the A was more about denial than it was about reality.


I'm sorry to say then, that to say that he makes no effort is a disrespectful judgement. I believe he IS making efforts. He just isn't hitting the target with the effort. This is why you both need to talk to Steve Harley.


You do. I did not say you had the right to demand that Patriot change to make you happy. I did not say you have the right to selfishingly demand your needs and judge Patriot when he fails.

Froz ~ you deserve to be loved the way you need to be loved. This does not turn into: ...therefore you have the right to demand that someone else change to make you feel that love.

Loving you is Patriot's choice.


A selfish demand is still a selfish demand, even if you say Please first.

I can tell you that it took a long time for my husband to get things right. It was a new pattern, and he didn't think like me or have my needs. I had to stop judging him, stop deciding that I understood his motives, I had to stop making everything he did about me.


Don't we tell our children that 2 wrongs don't make a "right"?

Neither do 2 lovebusters.


That could be. So what? It doesn't make what you are doing ok!


So do you think that maybe, not understanding a myriad of emotions, might make him clumsy, hesitant to approach you, and probably not willing to try, for fear of yet again getting it wrong and having you hurt more, and/or LB him?


I'm sure he did. But I bet he also saw anger. Your posts are very angry.


This is your Taker talking and running the show.

I am sure there are a lot of things Patriot can change.

I am not talking to Patriot. I'm talking to you.

Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy?

Your behavior is destructive to you. Thats why I am prodding you to change.

If you feel that there is nothing wrong with you, then I simply keep my mouth closed, and you can go back to demanding bread and milk from a hardware store. It didn't work from you in the past....maybe it will work this time?

If what you are doing is working for you, by all means, don't change. Keep selfishly demanding that Patriot change, and when he does, judge him selfish and unloving.


Whoa.

I 'm just shaking my head hun.

Your husband has written hundreds of things on this thread. Most of them about you.

You zeroed in on one thing he said about himself?

YOUR JOB in recovery is to not love bust and fill needs for HIM. His job is to tell you what he needs. He's doing his part. Yes, he has to do the same for you. But that doesn't mean that he has to get yours right before he gets his!!

Have you forgotten that you are a team and he gets to have his needs filled too, regardless of past transgression?

Recovery is not about what is just and fair.

The BS must drop the sense of victimization and entitlement for recovery to work.

You are tired of being his parent?

Then stop.

Thats totally in your control.

Froz ~ you do want to be in charge. You are angry. You are self-righteous in victimization, expecting Patriot to change to meet your exacting standards so you can be happy.

Froz ~ what would you do, if Patriot suddenly did everything right for you?

I think that idea terrifies you. It did terrify me. Remember how I told you that emotionally unavailable men were safe?

Because, obviously, it wasn't real.




Interesting...this is now a failing of mine? Funny, I was doing then what everyone is telling me to do now...accepting what he says as truth.




This is not meant to sound contrite, but how is it exactly that I'm demanding? I'm not ordering him to do anything. I've simply told him what I need. Granted, I'm not happy that I'm not getting it, but I really don't see where it is that I am punishing him. I really don't understand how it is that I'm supposed to be happy in this relationship when my needs are not being met.




I'm very confused. Since when is being emotional a LB?



Yes. I do that that might make him clumsy, etc...but, by the same token, does he not think that disregarding how I feel might make me emotional? What's the difference? Why am I the one expected to change? The truth is, I can't change the fact that I'm emotional any more than he can change the fact that he isn't. Wouldn't it just be easier for him to understand that ALL my emotion isn't anger...much the same way I am expected to understand that he doesn't necessarily mean to hurt me?



I want to be happy. If I could understand how it is that just accepting whatever he does to hurt me is supposed to make me happy, I would.




I have no desire for you to keep your mouth closed. You have said nothing that has offended me. What you are reading as anger isn't anger. It's frustration. Frustration at the fact that I don't understand. Frustration at the fact that he seems to be allowed to behave in whatever manner he chooses and I'm supposed to be all-forgiving and all-understanding.

What is the difference in you telling me that I am participating in behaviors that are hurting him and me or anyone else telling Patriot that he is hurting me? Yes, I'm frustrated!


This makes sense. I wish I knew how to stop feeling that way.


I really do try not to LB him. Sometimes my emotions get in the way. I realize he doesn't necessarily have to get mine right first. I really hope you don't assume that I just sit here day after day, bashing him and giving nothing. That just isn't true.

Every day I put forth my best effort. Some days I am more successful than others - just like him. Every day I get up at the crack of dawn so I can make him his coffee and his breakfast and lunch. I try to be considerate of him. I run his errands for him and try to do them in the manner that he likes. Even in the midst of all of this, I called him yesterday to tell him to have a good first day of school. I am trying to meet his needs. I really am. I will admit that I do find it difficult to praise him when he is hurting me so much. During those times, I try to keep my mouth shut. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Most often it does, until he prods me. During those times, I find it difficult to lie about how I feel. That's all this is. It's not a case of me verbally attacking him at every available opportunity. However, if he asks me, I'm not going to lie about how I feel.



I'm not angry. I'm hurt and sad and frustrated. I'm drained empty. I don't want to be in charge. I just want to be loved...in my language. I don't want to be told that love is not considering the other person. If he knows that's the case, then I want him to stop, much the same way I am being told to stop being so emotional towards him because he perceives that as not feeling safe or being loved.

If I ever had "charge" (which I didn't), then fine...I relinquish it. I am no longer in charge. I never actually though I was, anyway.

So condsidering that I am now beat down and willing to start from scratch...what is it that I'm supposed to do?

I'm sorry to keep making you shake your head. I'm sorry that I'm so clueless. I really am not trying to argue with you. I'm simply trying to understand.

I've been thinking about this one...

I would never expect him to do everything right. I never have. It is only when he does something that hurts me to my core that I react so strongly. It is often things I have told him before hurt me deeply, yet he often continues to repeat them.

I'm so confused.

I have done everything I know, and even tried some things I didn't know.

I have tried praising him.

I have tried focusing more on the good than the bad.

I have made lists and lists for him of "Things he has done right"...

I have even posted here about them.

I have been loving. I have been patient. I have continued to be kind, regardless of the mistakes that he has made.

I just want to know when...when is he going to stop hurting me?????

And, if I don't tell him it hurts, how is he supposed to know? Perhaps, from now on I will not tell him something hurts me in person. Maybe I will write him a letter. I'm very expressive in language and in body language. Perhaps that expressiveness is what he sees as emotional and attacking.

I really don't know what to do.

Something tells me today is going to be very long, and very lonely.

Froz, Are you and Pat spending any time together just having fun? No R talks just recreational time like Harley recommends? I know other obligations get in the way but this is a must. (straight from the mouth of the woman that has yet to accomplish this, LOL) I see so clearly that you two need some "off" time together to enjoy each other and heal.

I was referred to you from someone else because your story is really similar to mine.
I'm 26, and just found out my fiancee cheated on me with my sister. He keeps saying he loves me with all of his heart, but all I am hearing is "I love you NOW, but I didn't then." Since I've been with him I've never truly felt loved. But I also know my expectations from him are pretty high.
We were suppsed to be married November 5th. That's obviously been called off. He says he still wants to get married and that he wants to spend the rest of his life trying to make it up to me. I love him, but I'm not sure if I love him enough to forgive him for sleeping with my sister.
From what I have read, you sound a lot like me. Any advice would be wonderful.

Wow Hrt1,

That's a painful story you tell. What's the relationship with your sister like now?

Froz, I do not understand either why you are getting so much blame for what it wrong here. BR, I am listening to you too, but I don't get it.

I also got "manhandled" the other night and it was not to provide any comfort or understanding -- it was to Shut Me Up. I suspect yours was for the same reason.

I follow your posts because your situation is much like mine.
Mulan

I haven't talked to her since I found out on August 1st. She hasn't tried to contact me to explain, apologize or anything.

frozen,

I read your posts and I see so many statements like:

He hurts me...
He continues to hurt me...
I just want to know when...when is he going to stop hurting me?????

His actions may not be to your liking but, I just can't imagine that his actions are done with the intention of wanting you to feel hurt.

You are the owner of your feelings. Granted, his actions can have an influence on your feelings but statements like those above infer that you are placing the responsibilty for your feelings in his hands.

Maybe it's all semantics but, he cannot 'make' you feel safe. He cannot 'make' you feel happy. He cannot 'make' feel anything. He can only contribute a positive or negative influence for you to process into happiness, anger, hurt, frustration, etc.


I can understand your frustration with this. At what point to you begin to consider removing yourself from what is seemingly a continually unsafe and painful atmosphere?

It's all together possible that patriot simply cannot change himself and his actions to the extent that would create an atomosphere where you would be able to feel 'completely' safe and unhurt.

I'm really getting so many mixed messages.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and if for some reason it's perceived that way...please forgive me. I ask questions because I'm desperately trying to understand.



By that logic, then isn't he also the owner of his feelings? Isn't the responsibility of his feelings being placed in my hands, simply because he perceives my emotionalism as "unsafe", and therefore threatening? So, I am being told I must change these things.

I do not have the intention of trying to hurt him, either.

I'm not resisting just for the sake of resisting change. I don't know if I can change who I am. I may be able to change aspects of myself, but changing my whole being to suit him is not something I am sure I can do.

Why do I need to change to make him feel safe?

No, FF, we haven't. We have both contributed to that factor. He's been busy with work and school, and I've been busy responding to all of you (just kidding).

I've been kind of sick, and really, really tired. I haven't had much energy for anything recreational.

I'll make it a priority if you think it will help.

hrt,

I am sorry for your situation. I know how painful and disappointing that is.

I just wanted you to know I am really thinking about your question. Give me just a bit to really ponder this. I would really like to share with you what I would do differently, of given the opportunity.

I'll get right on that.

Froz, I think you need to time to really process all you have learned so far. Maybe others would disagree but sometimes I hide from my pain or from really working on myself by posting here. (thanks Susan) I also believe Froz that you are lacking joy. Where can you find some joy with Pat?

Pat, question for you. Is is really necessary for you to be in school right now? What would happen if you put if off and spent that time with Froz? Think hard (this is not meant to be a DJ) where your priorities truly are right now.

FF,

Just out of curiousity, what makes you think I am lacking joy? (not denying that I am)

Maybe I shouldn't have asked that. Patriot says that I over-analyze everything and that I ask too many questions. Maybe it is something I need to work on...I don't know. I just find people's thoughts and ideas and their origin very interesting.