Heavens, no!!!! I meant breaking up.

Of course there needs to be healing, personally and within the relationship. All I meant was that I thought that I might "get over him". A moot, point, since he isn't going to Afghanistan and I have him in my clutches now.

Okay...(deep breath), we have an appointment with Dr. Harley on Tuesday. I'm nervous.

Well, I agree with this but probably not for the reasons you meant it...

The reality-that-you-desired did not match reality-that-was. The real Patriot did not match the man-you-wanted. So rather than making choices based on acceptance...you choose to ignore/force (deny) reality into what you wanted.

If you just put your fingers in your ears, and sang really loud ~ lalalalalalalala ~ and squeezed your eyes really tightly....

These are decisions based on self-will, instead of acceptance.

And the nasty little thing that happens, when our choices are based on self-will and attempts to force the reality that we desire instead of what-is....we become frustrated and angry...

So we try harder ...

And when we still dont get the outcome ...

We look around for someone to blame...

OH, it must be Patriot's fault! He's the reason I am unhappy and my reality isn't shaping up right!

But then...blaming Patriot and repeated attempts to get Patriot to change doesn't "fix" things...

The anger and the frustration grows...

And then the problem becomes... Oh dear... ME (Froz).

If Froz was only prettier, smarter, cleaned the house better, made more money, etc etc...then Froz would be able to fix this.

These are the tapes we play in our head...often learned from childhood. For you, Froz, it was something like: If I was a better child, I would be lovable. If I was lovable, Mom would treat me better.

This became: If I was a better woman, I would be lovable. If I was lovable, Patriot would treat me better. Since Patriot has treated me badly, I must not be lovable.

Where is your self-respect, your self-protection (boundaries?).

Women who love themselves and treat themselves as Queens (wink Pep and Suz) do not marry a man who has betrayed her in one of the worst ways possible only a month before!


Your fantasy was almost air-tight - you were happily swimming along in denial, and then BLAM!

D-Day is a very hard fact to deny!


Yes. You were determined to have your way weren'tcha? No pesky little dishonesty and betrayal was gonna get in your way!


Ok. I don't disagree that you would have grown apart and it would have been the end of your relationship.

What I find incredible, and believe is your denial, is that you thought that this was a reasonable, rational reason to marry a man who had just betrayed you in a horrible devastating way.

Most people, like committedandlovingit already posted, would see this as a GOOD reason not to get married, and in fact would be relieved that he was leaving so that the relationship could be easily dissolved.

I have to admit, my jaw dropped when I read this.

You might as well have been calmly saying: "Well, duh, of course I drove through that busy intersection Mr Police Officer, that light was red!!"

Even more significant, I think, was your comment:


i.e.: "I don't see how I could have singlehandly controlled my reality back into what I desired, given those circumstances."

{edited to add:} Are you still going to tell me that you don't want to be in charge?

LOL, glad you are able to laugh about this in yourself!

And congratulations on the appointment with Steve.

No need AT ALL to be nervous.

Steve will be a great interpreter between you!

Obviously, based on the choices I made, I was in denial D-Day, and for a time thereafter, and in a serious state of shock.



It was his fault that the reality (not my reality, but the reality that he presented to me as truth) wasn't reality.




This is all true. You could have reached inside my head and cut and pasted it here.



I wish I knew. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I suppose I probably relinquished them to gain the love and acceptance I've craved since I was a child.




NO! Denial of what? How the heck was I supposed to know he was lying? I was not in denial pre-A. To say that I was in denial would be implying that I had knowledge of the true circumstances and chose, consciously or otherwise, to deny their existence. I had no knowledge. I didn't make this "fantasy" up. He told me it was truth.

I will completely own being in deep denial D-Day and after, but not prior.



Okay, you may pick up your jaw. I NEVER said or thought it was a reasonable, rational reason. I just said, in retrospect, it was a reason. I didn't say it was a good reason.



Of course it's a good reason not to get married.

There would have been nothing easy about dissolving the relationship, though.

Yes, getting married at that time was certainly not a logical choice. Was it a mistake???? I don't know. Do I regret it? No. Maybe at some time in the future I will regret it. I don't know what the future holds yet, so I don't know.

All I can say to explain is that I loved him and I didn't want to let go. Those are facts. I was obviously reacting in shock/denial (isn't that the first stage...denial?) and I was operating based on emotion.

Recovery could have taken place whether we'd married or not. Do I think it is a mistake to pursue Recovery with him? No, I don't. Regardless of the outcome, I still think he is worth the risk.

I do hope to learn and grow from these circumstances and grow some self-respect in the process.




What is it exactly that you are saying I want to control? I'd like to know before I own that one. What is it exactly that I'm owning?




Not laughing so much right now. I feel sad, stupid, and pretty pathetic.

Also,



By "singlehandedly", I simply meant that he would be gone. I would have been alone to figure it out by myself. It's kind of hard to Recover together when you aren't together.

Froz ~ this is not about blaming you. This is not about judging you. This is not about saying: Look how stupid Froz is!

Froz ~ you are a funny, loving, caring, smart, wonderful woman.

As I said on Patriot's thread, in the end, I think you guys are going to be OK.

We are just looking and acknowleding stuff Froz, that's all. If you want to talk about it in MB terms...we are sifting through your fog, ignoring illusions, and putting our hands on "real stuff" and bringing out into the sunlight to be seen.

Yeah some of the "real stuff" is gonna be ugly. But that's ok. Now that you see it, you can clean it up and repair it all. And in the end, what we will have uncovered is the real, beautiful you that is there hiding!

It takes a pretty courageous babe to go through this. And you are doing it in public. Pretty darn brave of you, I think.

As I grew up, I learned a set of "truths" about myself and the world that was not real. But I lived my life and made my choices, and my behaviors were all based on those "truths".

Choices based on a false reality are likely to be pretty unreliable choices wouldn't you agree?

One of your "truths" Froz, is that you believe you are not worthy and deserving of love. You believe that you are unlovable.

When people treat you badly, you don't stand up and protect yourself. You allow their bad behavior to be your truth about yourself.

Your "truths" is that when other people treat you badly, that it is because you deserve it.

(What did you say to yourself when you discovered Patriot's betrayal?)

Your "truth" gives other people power over what you say and think about yourself.

One of your "truths" is that you have the power to control people, situations and circumstances around you. If you just do a little better, try a little harder, that you can force things to be "right". Manipulation and control are your favorite tools.

(Why did you marry him when you did?)

Because of this "truth"....when you fail to get the "right" outcome, you tell yourself that it was because you were not good enough, or that someone else failed you because you were not good enough. It never occurs to you that manipulation and control are the very things that cause the outcomes that you fear.

One of your "truths" is that other people, including Patriot, are responsible for your unhappiness.

If other people would just stop being or doing what they are, then you could be happy. This "truth" leaves you frustrated and angry, driving that downward spiral of self-loathing. (If I were good enough, he'd really love me, if he really loved me, he would do what I want him to do. Since he doesn't do what I want, he doesn't love me, because I am not good enough to be lovable.)

How do I know this about you Froz? Because I've been there, and still go there on occasion during a pity party!

I wasn't able to live my life driven by self-will and denial. I became angry, frustrated and completely unreasonable ~ and didn't know it. That is what I mean by denial Froz.

In my situation, my years of control by guilt, fear, intimidation and anger drove my husband away from me. His choice to cheat on me was his very pooro choice in dealing with my horrible behavior. My fear that I was not lovable, was proven to me because he did not love me the way I demanded, which resulted in my extreme manipulation and control to get him to do it right so I could be happy, which resulted in his leaving me because he didn't love me!

Denial does not mean that I think you knew Patriot was a cheater and a liar.

Lets work on exposing those "truths" for the lies they are, so that you can step out of the prison of denial.

And hun, I'm not suggesting for even a second that you made "bad" decisions, and that you should dump Patriot.

You guys can still go on to have a great marriage, regardless of the "why" and the truths behind your decisions.

BR,

I am very interested in what you have to say because I see my manipulative and controlling behaviors have made my WH unhappy. I learned well at my mother's knee who is a third-degree black belt control freak.

So how do I stop? I truly want to change.

(Froz - sorry to jump into your thread here and bless you for being willing to share and not run away from this. It is helping me so much.)

BR,

Was it my comments that made your jaw drop?

Most people, like committedandlovingit already posted, would see this as a GOOD reason not to get married, and in fact would be relieved that he was leaving so that the relationship could be easily dissolved.

I didn't say that I would have been relieved so that the relationship could be easily dissolved. Moving forward does not necessarily mean leaving the other person behind. Individual healing had to take place...she had to move forward with him...or without him. Either way, she had to look to herself for that healing.

I would have needed to get my head on straight...to try and determine if I indeed even wanted to be married to that person. It would not have been to easily dissolve the relationship. I am one of those people that needs to step back and regroup when something life altering like this happens. It doesn't necessarily mean that I am jettisoning the person out of my life. It means that I need to work on my own personal healing.

One more thing...miles do NOT separate people. ACTIONS separate people. At least that is what I believe.

committed

I didn't think at all that you were doing that. I did that one all by myself. I'm very good at it. The fact is, I was stupid. I did/do a lot of really dumb things. I know that. I'm just not particularly happy about it.




...and that's exactly how I take it. Don't worry. You didn't hurt my feelings. I'm just not very happy with myself regarding the choices and mistakes I've made.




It sure is ugly. All of it. All of this. Sure, I see it (most of it), but I really have doubts that I can clean it up and repair it. I sure thought I was doing great before (before the A)! I really thought I had my life together. I thought I had a wonderful guy, wonderful children, a great job, great friends, etc...I thought I was making such great choices and had really learned from past experiences. I was the one everyone came to for sound advice because they thought I was such a wealth of knowledge, having gone through so much in my life and coming out clean and healthy on the other side. WHATEVER!!!!



I sure hope this wasn't hypothetical, because I'm going to take a stab at it.

I said to myself, "I'm ugly. I'm fat. I'm stupid. I'm worthless. No one loves me. No one ever has. I'm not good enough for him. I must be lousy in bed. I must be lousy at everything. No wonder no one loves me. I thought I was happy and healthy and good now. Obviously, I'm not," and on and on and on...




Because I wanted all of it to go away. I wanted everything to be like it was before. I didn't want to let go of my dream.




I definitely didn't. What really hurts so much this time, above all the other times, is that I really did believe in him. I really, really did.




Okay. I hope your expectations aren't real "up there". I really appreciate your help and I don't want to disappoint you.

Thinking of you froz. Glad you are getting expert help.

Committed ~ I was writing too fast and committed grammatical fouls!

Should have said: Most people, like committedandlovingit already posted, would see this as a GOOD reason not to get married[period, end of sentence].

The rest was more general, not crediting you with the 'relieved' feeling.

Froz ~


Ok. Stop.

Beating yourself up for making mistakes is a very unloving thing to do.

You did the best you could at the time. Guilt and blame have no place in recovery of any kind.

Accept that you are a human being and like all human beings, you've been hurt, damaged, and sometimes, make mistakes. Like the rest of us! One aspect of control is a perfectionist approach to life....and it is particularly destructive when we turn that perfectionsim on ourselves!!

Froz ~ give yourself permission to screw up. It is ok. Thats why we have God around!


Well, back to the 12 steps.

1. Acknowledge that your life is unmanageable. (You can't do it!)

2. Acknowledge that a power greater than yourself can. (God)

3. Let Him do it, get out of the way!


Yes, you were in denial, living a life of pretend: Everything is Great, I am Powerful and In Charge.


And as Pep pointed out on my "fan thread" ~ that little fear in your head, from childhood, came out and said: See, its true. You are unlovable.

What we hope to see Froz, is that you choose to stop giving those fears power. You are lovable.

Patriot's betrayal of you had more to do with what is wrong with HIM, than anything wrong with you.

Your mother's betrayal of you (both times) had nothing to do with what was wrong with you and did have everything to do with what was wrong with her.

And as for your adopted mother....

I suspect there were 2 things going on there...

1. You believed you were unlovable, so saw everything she did with the expectation that you indeed were not going to be loved as much as everyone else.

2. She was also hurt and damaged and unable to love you the way you deserved. Do not ignore the power of the disease of alcoholism that had affected her.

And then fathers....oh dear fathers...

Your bio dad...abandoned you.

You real dad...abandoned you.

You went on to be hurt and abandoned by your first husband, and violated by your second.

(And I haven't gone here with this question...but Froz, I know you blame yourself for choosing the sex molestor...but I have a feeling....you blame yourself for not being good enough...and causing the sex molestor to turn on your daughter...)

Every single time Froz, the problem was with someone else, but you have made it about you. This part of you, the broken, hurt, wounded part of you, never matured past that child who believed adult problems were her fault.

Over and over, you have set yourself up in adulthood to repeat those lessons and to confirm those truths which are NOT TRUE.

(((((((((( Froz )))))))))))

And the whole point of all of these conversations Froz ~ is to help you become receptive to Patriot's love.

He does love you, and it's bouncing right off some very high walls.

Fort Knox and you are pretty similar!

~amen~ to that

1. No kidding!
2. Okay.
3. I'll try.




I was in in denial pre-A. I had every reason to believe things were pretty great. It's not my fault he lied.



Not denying that the above is true...just exploring here. How can you possibly really know that?



I'm not convinced of that. That was probably the case in my adolescence, but I remember knowing that very early on. She has always told me it's just my imagination. I don't possibly see how a 3-year old child can just be imagining that. Those feelings had to come from somehwere.



Yeah, that's a tangled web. My grandmother (whom I love dearly) married my grandfather very young. He left her very young, too, and with two small children. My mom is the oldest. My grandmother re-married rather quickly and her 2nd husband adopted my mom and my uncle. My grandmother never told them that he wasn't their biological father - not until my mom was a teenager, after my grandmother had invited him to her high school graduation. He never showed.

I suspect my mom was very angry with my grandmother for deceiving her. I think that's why she told me at such an early age that I was adopted. I don't blame my mother for it, but the way she always explained adoption to me was very confusing. She told me "you didn't come from your mother's tummy like your brother and sisters did", but she never told me where I did come from.

I used to have wild childhood fantasies about where I came from. One notion was that God made adopted children out of playdough (so I liked playdough as a kid). He then put them on a conveyer belt and sprinkled them with magic dust, left them overnight to dry, and then BAM...you got yourself a batch of adopted kids!

The other fantasy was, and still is, a little more painful. My mom used to take us to garage sales a lot when were were young. I asked her one time when I was about five if she got me at a garage sale. She said "yes, for five cents". I'm sure she was joking, but it still hurt.




Yes, I blame myself, but not for the reason you suggest. I blame myself for choosing him at all. I blame myself for not knowing...so that I could have protected her. I blame myself for bringing someone so horrible into her life.

Even I am not twisted enough to think that I caused him to be a child molester.



Yes, I know.

From Detachment with Love:



Hun. This is not about Patriot's affair.

Your denial is NOT that you didn't know he was cheating.

Your denial was that you were happy and emtionally healthy, and therefore making great choices.

I am sure that many things about your life were happy. And that fear inside you that said you didn't deserve it came out to sabotage yourself. Because you believed everything was great, you didn't notice that you were setting yourself up again, with a man who would hurt you and prove once again that you didn't deserve that happiness!!!

I'd like to take a stab at this:

First, approaching this from the belief that love is not a passive thing that happens to us, but is an action word - a verb - something we DO... You are lovable because everyone is lovable - it is the choice of others whether or not they will take that action. The action of loving is just that, an action someone takes. Not being loved is no indication of our lovableness (is that a word) - it is merely an indication that the people around us have not made the choice to take the action of loving us. My take on that is that, perhaps, we need to surround ourselves with different people.

Second, I believe you are lovable because Patriot has stated unequivocably that he loves you, and because you are both working so very hard to get this marriage on the right track.

I haven't read everything you've both ever written here, so forgive me if I don't have some things straight.

You mentioned earlier something about Patriot "knowingly" hurting you by repeating hurtful behaviors that you'd told him were hurtful. Since I don't know exactly what those things were, I might be completely off base here... But one of the things about habitual behaviors and life patterns is that they can be completely unconscious, something that is deeply ingrained that we do not think about. i.e., driving home from work via a route that is established for 15 years ... after moving to a new home, you might, when leaving work thinking about the fact that you have to do some shopping and that you have to go to the school play, etc., find yourself driving to the old home because of the pattern you've established. Do you not KNOW that you no longer live at this old address? Of course you do... but you did not consciously and specifically think to yourself when you got in the car to start home "I must turn left at the intersection, not right." So, in that respect, I suppose you COULD say you "knowingly" drove to the wrong house... And, also in that respect, you COULD say that Patriot "knowingly" repeated hurtful behaviors. But, did he intentionally repeat those hurtful behaviors in spite of the knowledge that they would hurt you? Can we attribute conscious determination to hurt you? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "No"... Is it possible that some of these behaviors are actions that have become habitual under certain circumstances? I think that is likely. Should Patriot try to become more conscious of those patterns of behavior so he can avoid behaviors that hurt you? ABSOLUTELY. Can you force him to do that? NO, nor should you make any attempt to do so. Provide him with useful feedback, yes. "I felt very hurt when you did thus and such." And remember that his repeating a bad pattern of behavior really has nothing to do with whether or not he loves you, and certainly has nothing to do with whether anyone can love you.

I hope this makes some sense and is in some way helpful.

CS

How was it that I wasn't making good choices then? (try to go easy on me with this one)



Yes, there were MANY things that were happy, which is why I'm so puzzled by the fact that you seem to think I am setting myself up NOT to be happy. For someone who doesn't want to be happy, I sure did love my life when I was happy.



How was I setting myself up? How was I supposed to know he was going to hurt me?

It makes perfect sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.