Pep,

Thanks for sharing that.

I think I need to tape it to my forehead.

What? Just the assignment? Or was there more, if you don't mind sharing it.




Sorry you felt bad. I understood. Close times don't last as long as I'd like them to, either. Don't worry, though...we'll "tweak" it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not more really.

Why
Validate
Plan

just you and I expounding on that was the deal.

And I am greatful you are willing to tweak things with me.(I certainly hope bob and his perverted friends don't mis-read that line) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So, I'm wondering...

If I do as Pep suggested and go sit myself in my closet, surrounded by shoes, will I suddenly have all the answers?

I have no idea how to communicate with this man. I have no idea how to give him whatever it is that he wants. It seems as though what he wants is to don the rose-colored glasses and make believe as though everything is just fine.

I don't necessarily want to constantly focus on everything bad all the time, but if an issue exists, I would like to address it. I would also like him to address something if it's a problem for him. He doesn't seem to be willing or able to do that. If he is upset with me about something, he simply chooses to ignore it.

I think he is quite angry with me for not playing along with his game of make-believe.

He asked me tonight if it's conflict-avoidance if he just doesn't want to talk about anything bad. I didn't know how to answer him, so I didn't. I don't know that I really have an answer for him. Maybe I just didn't want to get into the conversation with him. It just feels like we've been there a thousand times. He never seems to get what I'm saying. Sometimes he even acts as though he does get it, but the end result is never any different. I get tired of having my words fall on deaf ears.

I get really tired of having to try to figure everything out for him. I can't make him get it. I can't control him, and I'm tired of trying to.

He doesn't seem to take much initiative unless I'm angry or it's crisis time. I have no desire to create a crisis to get my needs met or to get anything accomplished towards Recovery. I really don't want to play games. I just want to mutually work towards a goal...together.

I'm also pretty angry (yeah, I said angry) that it seems like the bar is set so much higher for me. I'm sure that sounds selfish, but I feel as though so much more is expected from me, simply because I am capable of more. Everything is expected of me, so I do it. I feel like there are all these expectations on me. That equates to any effort I make being nothing special, because it's expected.

On the other hand, if he makes some effort to be honest with me or something similar...it deserves huge accolades. Isn't that something that should be a given? That's just one example. There are many more. I'm tired of leading this thing. I didn't create it and I don't want to lead it.

I've told him what I need from him. I ask him for something specific, he forgets. Well, we can just chalk that up to his poor memory. Although it seems to me, he definitely doesn't forget the things that are important to him. He doesn't forget things when it comes to work or school or something that he is interested in. I wonder if he even really cares about what my EN's are. He keeps trying to give me what he would want, I guess.

He's frustrated, too. He actually just walked in here and said he was dying to know what I was posting so he could figure out how to fix this. This floors me, because none of this is anything I haven't already told him a thousand times. But, because things are tense...THEN he wants to try to do something. When I refuse to play make-believe...THEN he wants to take action.

I don't get him. I have told him precisely what it is that fills my needs. He knows this. He forgets, anyway. So, because my love bank is pretty much drained...then he gets motivated. He actually asked me to remind him what it was I already told him by making a "honey-do" list of things that I have told him would make me feel more fulfilled in this relationship.

That was pretty darn frustrating, considering I have told him over and over and he just doesn't seem to make it enough of a priority to remember or to actually listen or hear me. This is not a case of me not communicating these things to him.

The fact that, only when things get tense, he asked me to write him a reminder list makes me feel pretty unimportant. I'm not expecting him to be a mind-reader. It would just be really nice if I were important enough for him to pay attention. I don't really feel important when I have to write it down as though it were a list of chores.

I wonder how he would feel if he were expected to do that for me to make it a priority to meet his needs.

Besides, he has my EN Questionnaire. If he wants a list...there it is in black and white.

His asking me to make it a list feels like I have to constantly badger him to get what I need. I don't want to badger.

I don't even feel like I care to be close to him these days.
I'm sick of chasing him. It always feels as though any thing nice he does for me is some huge sacrifice or effort on his part...like spending time with me.

How is it supposed to make me feel great when he spends time with me if he views it as some great sacrifice? It really comes off sounding so arrogant to me.

He actually told me the other day that he doesn't mind spending time with me. It's also fine with him if he doesn't. That made me feel very unimportant. It did not make me feel very valued.

I'm supposed to rise up, change all my perceptions, so that I can somehow grasp how that's supposed to make me feel valued by him? There have been too many things that make me feel completely unvalued, including the A. I don't feel valued. It feels like everything is all about him. This whole relationship has been about him. The A was about him. Recovery is about him.

Recovery is about what he is capable or willing to give. It rarely feels like it's about what I need. I needed details. I needed to understand what happened. But, because he was scared to do that, he didn't. Why is it all about what he needs? Why is it always about protecting him or making him feel safe?

I feel about as far away from him as I could be, and completely apathetic. That doesn't feel good. It makes him uncomfortable to discuss anything negative, and I'm sick of pushing him. If he doesn't want to deal with conflict, I can't force him.

OT: I've been thinking a lot about my birth mother today. The last I knew, she and her family live in New Orleans. I'm worried. I am a pretty decent investigator, and I may be able to find a brother in the Dallas area that I recall she said she was close to. I haven't talked to her in about 15 years. I thought about trying to find him, just so I could ask if she and her family are safe, but I'm afraid. I'm wondering which is worse...worrying and not knowing if they are safe, or trying to find out and risking further rejection from anyone in her family.

Feeling empty feels pretty...well, empty.

I seem to have misplaced my rose-colored glasses.

Can I interject two quick points? First a comment....seems like a good step for both of you with this journal...hope it speeds the recovery for you both.

Second, did the "issue" of a possible "other child" ever get resolved?, or is that still clouding the "recovery" path? Sorry if I missed this..I admittedly have not kept up with your story.

BOL.

LEM....

Froz and Patriot,

Is there any chance that Patriot is a high functioning ADD? Several of your descriptions sound as though it could be a possibility. Particularly the bit about him not reacting until someth8ing has become a CRISIS..then having amazing clarity. No more thread jack..just a thought.

Noodle

LM,

Glad to report there is no OC. OW gave birth August 31st. Patriot's final encounter with her was November 5th of last year. That would put us in the clear by about 5 or 6 weeks, I think. Hallelujah for that! Our path seems clouded enough sometimes without having to deal with that.

Noodle,

About the ADD thing...I have no idea. I don't know that it's something he has ever explored. I am not familiar at all with the signs or symptoms of ADD. Do you think it's something to look into?

Not a threadjack, by the way. I'm always grateful to hear from you.

Patriot & Froz

I'm so delighted to hear how well you're doing with SH coaching!!! YEA!!!!

I remember these early assignments well! It is such a huge relief to have such a PRO guiding your recovery. It doesn't feel like you're carrying such a huge burden any longer. Each person is responsible for his/her part of the recovery!

There will probably be rollercoaster moments as a result of what you dig up during the healing process. But as long as you keep the end result in mind it makes hurtling the bumps easier.

Blessings to you both!

Whew.........I am breathing a nice sigh of relief for you both on this. I am glad that I asked.

BOL

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm breathing a sigh of relief as well.

I was kinda scared that Dr.LM was going to tell me (in your most doctor-like voice)..."There are some women whose gestational cycles can extend a few weeks, blah blah blah (Froz medical talk), thus it is still a possibility."

The fact that you seemed to agree that it wasn't possible leaves me enormously reassured.

Phew for me, too! To have a medical professional such as yourself agree is only further validation for me.

Noodle,

Is the lack of ability to remember anything a symptom, by chance? If so, ADD could be a high probability.

I even bought him some Ginkobiloba. He keeps forgetting to take it!

Froz ~ when you are learning to speak a new language...its uncomfortable, and sometimes you might need to carry a dictionary with you, full of scribbled notes to yourself, especially for communicating with those who are speaking their native language, and don't really understand WHY ITS SO DARN HARD FOR YOU TO GET IT.

Holy crap, I think alot of women on this board would be fainting if their husbands asked for a list.

You said he's ENTJ?

So is my husband (now I really dare you to tell me that I just don't get you!).

ENTJ's love lists. Action items are their speciality. Fix things, do things, lead the charge yadda yadda yadda.

Nothing pleases my husband more than to see me making a list. Lol ~ darn he's hung up on the things. He loves them. He thinks they are the way to get stuff done.

An ENTJ making a list is a darn serious thing. This is LOVE Froz, not disregard.

Go back to the beginning of this thread and read my birthday story again.

The problem, once again, is you. Your expectations of what it looks like to see Patriot learn a new language are what are out of kilter.

Expectations are premeditated resentments.

Now, don't get me wrong. Not saying Patriot isn't screwing up. I'll let the guys take a 2x4 to Patriot. (Which of you gentlemen would like to step up to the plate here?)

Believe me, the standard bar for Patriot is very high. And SH will hold Patriot to it.

But geez Froz, give the boy a break too. How much fun are you to be around?

Do you want to be married? or just in charge?

If your life revolves around all these heavy issues, and you cant have fun or be happy until they are resolved....well you are going to be one miserable gal, of your own choice. And your husband is going to just bloody give up.

Oh ~ and I know you read my long story about the stroke I had.

So you know I have some impaired mental issues.

I have to keep lists - detailed lists - both in my email software "To Do" and in a little black notebook that I haul around with me.

If I don't write it down, I will forget. It does NOT mean that I don't care. It means that I really can't remember.

In fact when I am stressed, I will wake up all night long in a panic about what I might have forgotten, and I will dream all night of trying to remember.

So.

If your husband is making a list - don't assume he doesn't care.

haha, yet another point popped in my head.

I hate lists. I only use them because I have to.

Of course you see lists as insulting.

Lists are cold, disconnected, unemotional things. Structured, obvious, not very interesting.

I totally get that.

ENTJs do not feel that way about lists.

So hun, stop fussing about the means he is using to get to the ends (learning to love you in your language).

And for heavens sake, get off the pity pot.

Hi, frozen.

BR is right on about the list. That is huge.

The reason it seems that you have so much more work to do is simply because of the way the male brain is wired at patriot's age. His ability to process emotion is not even one tenth of yours. In his brain, dealing with an emotional state comes under the list of things he has to do today. You simply can't expect reactions that are very similar to your own. No matter how hard he tries, he is unlikely to feel about something - anything, the same way, or to the same depth that you do.

I still listen to my own wife discuss (complain?) about a situation, and even though I know better, I find myself wanting to fix it as a problem, rather than just letting her unload while I listen intently. She lets me know when she actually wants me to fix something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry if I am restating the obvious/previsously discussed. My time to keep up with everyone closely is limited these days.

Patriot, have you been pursuing your wife?

God bless,
Gimble

BR,

I apparently misunderstood about the list. After he read my post, he clarified for me that the "honey-do" list was actually about household chores and fixit-things or whatnot.

Also, doesn't surprise me one tiny bit that you say my problem is me. It doesn't surprise me because I know it's probably true.

Even though I misunderstood, it was never the actual list that I had an issue with. It was the fact that he only seemed to care about the things I wanted when things were bad. I guess I was reiiterating that he only seems motivated to meet my needs if things get really bad. He only wants to do the things he's willing to do, no matter what I tell him I need.

For example, on occassion I have asked him if he would stay awake for a little while until I fall asleep. I only ask if I am having a particularly bad night. I know this probably seems like a ridiculous request, but it really does help me with the nightmares and such. I'm prone to panic attacks and it helps me feel safer if I know he is awake watching over me until I fall asleep. I doesn't take me that long to fall asleep, so I don't view this as an enormous request. I guess he does. He gets angry if I even ask, so I've stopped asking. He says he's tired...fine.

However, it is completely expected by him, as one of my duties to arise at 5:30 am and get up to make his coffee and breakfast and pack a lunch for him to take to work. Do you think I am not tired at 5:30 am...particularly when I don't sleep well at all? I am. But, I continue to do it because it's important to him.

His solution to this will probably be that I just stop getting up in the morning to do this for him, which is SO not the point. I don't mind giving to him. I mind that it is expected of me. I mind that it's viewed as "my job" instead of something special I do for him.

I know this probably sounds ridiculous and maybe it's a poor example.

I really have no problem with lists. Either I am not actually a INFP, or my upbringing overrides the distaste for lists. There is NO ONE who is a bigger list-maker than I. I LOVE lists. I have lists for my lists, all specially categorized into sublists for the sublists. Both of my parents are huge list makers, as well. I supposed I learned that from them. I don't view list-making as a flaw in the least. Without my lists, I would never be able to accomplish managing a household, running a business, and raising children.

I'm not saying he doesn't love me. I'm saying that if I tell him I need something from me, he does something different that doesn't meet my need at all. I feel as though he isn't listening to me.


This may very well be true. Meeting his needs doesn't necessarily come naturally to me, either, but I'm learning how to listen to him and do it, anyway.

I don't feel like the standard bar is high for him. It feels like I need to pole vault to get across my bar.

I don't know that I really want to be in charge at all. I just want to be as important in this M as he is! This may be my "victim" talking...but I'm angry that he makes his need for conflict-avoidance a higher priority than my healing.

I feel like I am, and have always been, the least important party of this relationship. What he needs always seems to come first.

How much fun am I to be around, you ask? Generally speaking, I would say that I think I am fun to be around. Even in the darkest times, I find a way to make him laugh. Even in the darkest times, I often look for a way to make him feel good and offer him kind words and encouragement. I guess that would really be a question for him.

How much fun is HE to be around? It's not easy, I'll admit. I hate it when a problem arises and he just runs from it. Or if I make a request of him and he immediately turns it around to be all about him again and what a failure he perceives himself to be. How much fun is it that I continue to be patient and wait for him to decide he can overcome his fears enough to make my healing a priority.

We're going on 10 months, here. He's yet to even really tell me details or exactly what it was that made him feel entitled to have an A. I don't think I've been hard on him. I've been patient and encouraging. That's not to say that I don't get pretty frustrated on occassion.




This sounds like you are telling me to lower my expecations or my standards. How much lower could they be? I think even Patriot would agree that I don't ask for or require much. I'm not exactly high-maintenance and the smallest things make me happy. He just chooses to give the things he wants, instead of the things I've told him make a difference.

Hopefully, I have properly conveyed that I have no aversion at all to lists. I'm probably confusing you and making not a lot of sense, here. I do have a difficult time expressing myself in a way that doesn't get misunderstood.

I just want to be as important in this M as he is. I want my needs to matter, too. I want to feel valued. I want to feel pursued. I want it to matter to him whether we spend time together. He thinks I misunderstood what he said there and keeps contending, "But, I do want to spend time with you." The thing is, I never said I thought he didn't. But he also said he is fine if he doesn't spend time with me. I want to matter to him. I don't want to be irrelevant.



I'll expect a thorough whacking for this one, but you know what? If he gives up...let him. I haven't given up, and if he doesn't deem me worthy of the effort...so be it. I've told him time and again that I believe he is worth the effort. I've praised and praised for everything he's done, even the small things.

Does he not see that it is an awful lot of work to continue to overlook mistakes that genuinely hurt me in light of the fact that he has betrayed me and continually put his needs before mine? If he wants to give up, I'm not holding him prisoner.

This feels impossible sometimes. Maybe I should lower my expectations to zilch and be glad for anything I get. If he lies...oh well. He's trying not to.

I think I'm doing a horrible job today of explaining myself. It's been a crappy day all in all. I really am worried about my mother. I just want to know if she is okay. I've searched some victim and survivor lists, but I've found nothing.

He asked me tonight if Recovery is even possible. I'm beginning to wonder. Maybe sometimes it just isn't. SH said that I haven't healed properly. He forgot to mention what the proper way was.

You're right, I'm having quite the pity party today. I'm sick of feeling this way. I'm sick of feeling like he is the prized one of this M. I'm sick of trying to choke down the filthy things he's done. They disgust me.

I'm mostly rambling. No wonder I probably don't make sense.

Froz ~ you make perfect sense. I understand it all.

You married Patriot with the expectation that he now owed it to you to make things right according to your standards afterwards.

You aren't getting what you feel entitled to, and thats totally tickin you off.

I get that.

When I say that the problem is with you - I am NOT exonerating Patriot. I'm just not talking to Patriot. I'm talking to you about your part of your marriage. There's lots of parts of you that need work, no matter WHO you are married to. Let SH and the MB guys deal with Patriot and whatever his failings are.

The bottom line is, you choose THIS man, knowing that he was who he was. Now you are complaining that he isn't what you want him to be. He never was. You chose to marry him anyway and hope that he would be.

At the point you decided to marry a guy who betrayed you, you were choosing the whole messy painful nasty recovery or lack thereof.

You are in this by choice.

Period.

Thats why I am saying get off the pity pot. I am not saying that Patriot isn't screwing up or wrong. I'm just pointing out that you are hardly the victim. And as long as you see yourself as "poor me", you are going to continue to be frustrated and angry.

And...I suspect...the nightmares will continue as long as you see yourself as a victim. I know that part of my healing and the lessening of the nightmares happened when I took responsibility for the choices I made that landed me where I was.

Now, here is where I think you need to really talk to SH:


POJA. Policy of Joint (ENTHUSIASTIC!) Agreement.

No spouse is to ever sacrifice themselves for the other's gain.

You are sacrificing yourself for him and expecting him to do likewise.

That is NOT how POJA works.

And darn it Froz, do you see the ironic part of:


Stop insisting that he feel loved by it.

That's not what he needs you to do to feel loved by you.

Stop insisting that he speak your love language to feel loved.

Stop sacrificing your sleep and being ticked off that he doesn't feel loved when you do it.

As you have already predetermined, he will be happy to forgo his breakfast and lunch prepared by you, if it means he can go to sleep when he is tired.

Stop insisting that he do it YOUR way. POJA is a negotiated agreement that makes both of you happy. He isn't happy about staying up with you. He is willing to let you sleep in the morning if that helps.

Really, truely, talk to Steve about this.


Do you see all the disrespectful judgements here?


No I'm not. I'm telling you that your expectations need to be adjusted to something realistic. Not lower. Just different.

I'm just saying that you don't have to wait for everything to be resolved in order to relax and enjoy your husband. It's ok to let the problems go for awhile. Experience a little bit of what you are both working towards.

You don't have to choose to live in agony and pain every minute until its all resolved to your satisfaction. (Pain is a given, misery is optional!)

The truth is, you'll never get it all resolved exactly to your satisfaction. It is what it is.

I used to think what you have expressed too. It never got me very far.

You are not a prisoner here either Froz. If you don't like it, the door is open and available at any time.

As long as you choose, on a daily basis, to stay in THIS marriage, you have to buck up and take responsiblity for your choices, instead of blaming Patriot for your misery.

BR,

You're right. I know you are right about all of that, with the exception about me getting up in the morning to do all his crap for him. It does make him feel loved. He's told me it does, and he's been pretty angry with me at times for not doing it.

You're right...I have no right to be angry with him because I'm here. I chose to be here, knowing what he'd done.




Seriously considering this option today.

I'm enraged today and I'm too afraid to say much because it'll just be DJ's all over the place.

Pep will be thrilled to hear me say that I am angry with myself for marrying him, because you're right...I knew what he was all about. I chose it anyway.

Frozen..
I am watching your thread closely because I feel the same exact emotions you do. I feel your pain 100%. Even with 2 x4 's, it's tough to change/lower your standards when you're already in a vulnerable position. SH would say I'm not properly healed--but I've always been a slow healer, so how can I ever heal. Thank you so much for sharing your inner most thoughts--it is so nice to know you're not alone. Good luck getting through your anger!